At What Point Do We Start Blaming Schneider?

[Sgt. Largent]

The Hawks did not draft any game-changers, or really any replacements for upcoming FAs, so our salary cap got spent really quickly without being able to FIX our problems.

You wouldn't call guys like Hill, Lockett, Graham, Lane, Simon, Sweezy, Clark, Richardson, etc suitable replacements for lost players?

Lane, Simon and P-Rich have been hurt, but that doesn't fall at the feet of Schneider.

IMO he's done his job about as well or better than 80% of the GM's out ther, he got Pete players to replace our lost players. The fault lies at the feet of the players we've chosen to keep and pay EXTREMELY well.

We have one of the, if not THE most talented roster in the NFL. So why is Schneider at fault again?

 

[jblaze]

JS certainly has to answer for some of his decisions.

Let's face it, the 2013 and 2104 drafts were not good. We haven't drafted well since McCloughan left.

Plus this sentiment that we can just take UDFA and defensive linemen and turn them into serviceable OL is a flawed concept. Sweezy is the exception, not the rule. It puts us in a major hole where we may lose a season because of one position group and that's negligence.

That said, JS has done some amazing things and has earned enough capital to get the benefit of the doubt with me. You can't win them all but when there are glaring holes, you gotta address them accordingly without your ego telling you Cable can make it work with anyone.

 

[Chapman]

Anyone claiming to be pro Bevell needs bashed :thfight7:

 

[SalishHawkFan]

Can Schneider Fire Bevell?

No.

End of thread.

 

[hawkfan68]

I believe the Seahawks lead the league or are at the top of the league in the amount of UDFAs on the roster. Am I not correct? That means they are putting more premise on UDFAs than value on drafting guys. These are UDFAs for a reason. However, Justin Britt should have been an UDFA but got picked in the 2nd round. Michael pick didn't make much sense because Lynch was in his prime and Turbin was a capable backup at the time. It was a wasted pick they could have used for another need. He's not even on the team now. However, if it was OL it probably would have been a wrong guy as well. They have missed more on the OL picks and any other area. They need to re-evaluate their scouting process where the OL is concerned.

Not re-signing Kevin Williams this offseason was a big mistake. Williams is a better player than Rubin and can play either DT positions. Especially when you have an oft-injured players like Mebane and Hill, Williams gives you more security. That was a huge error. Rubin is useless from what I've seen of him in the first 6 weeks. He's the Cary Williams of the DL.

 

[mrt144]

I believe the Seahawks lead the league or are at the top of the league in the amount of UDFAs on the roster. Am I not correct? That means they are putting more premise on UDFAs than value on drafting guys. These are UDFAs for a reason. However, Justin Britt should have been an UDFA but got picked in the 2nd round. Michael pick didn't make much sense because Lynch was in his prime and Turbin was a capable backup at the time. It was a wasted pick they could have used for another need. He's not even on the team now. However, if it was OL it probably would have been a wrong guy as well. They have missed more on the OL picks and any other area. They need to re-evaluate their scouting process where the OL is concerned.

Not re-signing Kevin Williams this offseason was a big mistake. Williams is a better player than Rubin and can play either DT positions. Especially when you have an oft-injured players like Mebane and Hill, Williams gives you more security. That was a huge error. Rubin is useless from what I've seen of him in the first 6 weeks. He's the Cary Williams of the DL.

This is a MinMax strategy with such a confident belief in scouting or a better angle on what is important to winning than the rest of the NFL. The commitment to homegrown UDFA is so fascinating to watch. This is why I love watching the Hawks right now - to see if this gamble pays off. Even in the heartbreak you can see where it is and isn't working. The biggest issue is the temptation to fall back on 'execution' as being the only lacking thing right now - process leading up to action counts for a lot.

 

[scutterhawk]

It's an NFL football team, when you're losing everyone get some blame..........from the top down.

IMO Schneider is pretty far behind Richard, Cable, Bevell, Pete and half the players if we're handing out blame.

Schneider resigned 90% of the players he said he was going to resign in order to keep this SB roster in tact, and has supplemented some nice draft picks like Hill, KPL, Marsh, Clark, Lockett, etc to fill in the gaps as needed.

Bottom line for me, this team has MORE than enough talent that Schneider drafted and signed to new contracts. Now the players and coaches need to play up to that level that's expected out of them.

^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^
Why blame Schneider for the Percy trade, when you KNOW it was more than likely a request made by Bevell, or Carroll, OR BOTH.
To believe that JS is pulling some of these trades out of his ass, out of his own desires?

 

[scutterhawk]

The Hawks drafts have not been good enough, and our trades have not been good enough to maintain the same talent level that we had a couple years ago. The players weve lost have been better than the players weve added.

We still have MOST of the same talented players that HELPED US WIN A SUPER BOWL, it would have been incredibly STUPID if he hadn't re-signed these guys.

 

[LymonHawk]

Who drafted Russell Wilson?

 

[mrt144]

The Hawks drafts have not been good enough, and our trades have not been good enough to maintain the same talent level that we had a couple years ago. The players weve lost have been better than the players weve added.

We still have MOST of the same talented players that HELPED US WIN A SUPER BOWL, it would have been incredibly STUPID if he hadn't re-signed these guys.

No, it's a risk laden decision that every Super Bowl Winning team makes with their premier talent.

At contract time which OL and WRs have we kept? Robbing Peter to pay Paul. What OL and WR FA moves have been made? There have been 2 trades and the jury won't be in on the 2nd until the end of JFGs time in Seattle.

It's a pretty bad cycle to get in where no OL talent is worth keeping at the end of the contract because of market forces price us out of their value yet those same market forces preclude us from FA acquisitions meaning all improvement has to be internally driven. I'd say that six games in, it looks about where you'd expect something with so little investment to be performing.

The issue boils down to the Seahawks having about a 3 year window to get max production out its rookies before their talent prices them out of Seattle's market. And being so wholly dependent on building a good enough offensive line through drafting really should mean that we're doing everything possible to ensure that happens and yet, here we are.


Also, this is through 5 games but the goddamn jets have, according to Football Outsiders, the best adjusted sack rate. THE JETS. You know who they have.

Edit:

Reading this back to myself, I am not coming across nearly terse enough relative to my frustration with seeing this disaster unfolding with each subsequent thought. The that we are operationally opposed to keeping rookies at OL due to market forces/team building philosophy and not doing particularly well in finding talent is galling.

 

[leto69]

I couldn't agree more... It all started here:

The Seahawks swapped the 40th pick in the second round with San Diego's 60th pick and also will send the Chargers a third-round pick in the 2011 draft.

Seattle, meanwhile, has signed Whitehurst to a two-year, $8 million contract, with $2 million more in incentives, sources said.

New coach Pete Carroll said he is excited about Whitehurst's potential.

"We are all about competition," Carroll said. "Charlie has tremendous talent and upside and we are very excited to watch him develop and help our football team."

Then you look at the forfeiture of 1st round picks for Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham.... It takes a toll on what you can provide as far as quality depth on a team. The O-Line has been sacrificed as a result. They continue to go after the wrong type of receiver in my opinion (short and fast), when we have a short QB that throws the ball higher in trajectory to get over linemen.

Their drafts for Defense have been outstanding no one can argue that, but offensively they have been among the worst in the league. The fact that we have so many undated FA on the team is proof of that, they are as good as our poor draft picking but only cheaper.

Their inability to DEVELOPE offensive players and need to trade for them to be impactful tells you something about the coaching staff Attrition on this team, its a fact of their success that other organizations take their coaches and it is displayed by the lack of development and progress. Even among our Stars... AKA the late TD Earl gave up in a blown coverage yesterday.....

 

[Willyeye]

I honestly feel like a lot of wrong lessons were learned due to success.

1. The team doesn't need to invest in O Line or keep continuity intact. Hawks can just plug and play regardless.
2. Refusal to bring in solid route running WRs through FA and relying on completely homegrown talent outside of one player. Maybe they're not really developing that well but then we see Tate, the last bonafide WR we drafted walk out the door and do well.

Because of the low volume of games its hard to know if and how these kinds of risks will play out but it really seems like the MinMax has gone too far and it's in a spot that can't be fixed readily in season.

We can point to other teams that build their entire team around facilitating the best possible QB play and they make the trade off in other arenas but it's clear to me at least that the Seahawks philosophy isn't conducive to figuring out the right lessons and adjusting accordingly when they are identified.

Just so you know, a lot of people make a big deal out of losing Tate...but is it really such a big deal? Tate gets paid way more than Baldwin or Kearse, and if you check their numbers on PFF (especially on Signature Stats), both Baldwin and Kearse are actually doing a lot better than Golden this year, especially ADB.

 

[Mike 4G]

For the last 3 years we have lost a Lot of depth and coaches. I think that he then it's toll as much as anything else. We can't afford everyone so other teams over pay our backups. Losing Quinn and norton hurt us bad.

 

[mrt144]

I honestly feel like a lot of wrong lessons were learned due to success.

1. The team doesn't need to invest in O Line or keep continuity intact. Hawks can just plug and play regardless.
2. Refusal to bring in solid route running WRs through FA and relying on completely homegrown talent outside of one player. Maybe they're not really developing that well but then we see Tate, the last bonafide WR we drafted walk out the door and do well.

Because of the low volume of games its hard to know if and how these kinds of risks will play out but it really seems like the MinMax has gone too far and it's in a spot that can't be fixed readily in season.

We can point to other teams that build their entire team around facilitating the best possible QB play and they make the trade off in other arenas but it's clear to me at least that the Seahawks philosophy isn't conducive to figuring out the right lessons and adjusting accordingly when they are identified.

Just so you know, a lot of people make a big deal out of losing Tate...but is it really such a big deal? Tate gets paid way more than Baldwin or Kearse, and if you check their numbers on PFF (especially on Signature Stats), both Baldwin and Kearse are actually doing a lot better than Golden this year, especially ADB.

No doubt people bellyached when Tate wasn't resigned but again, the decision was by design. I don't think Tate has suffered in any regard moving to Detroit outside of his team being worse. He gets money, he is actively involved in the offense, it's a good situation for him.

I'm using Tate as a good example of the design of the team being cast. Tate was one of my faves but thems the breaks of making money in the NFL.

I'd be more bent about this if it wasn't one of the most fascinating managerial decisions in sports. I admit, the novelty of the experiment keeps me at bay.

 

[HawkFan72]

Marshall salary 2015: 9M

McCray salary 2015: 570k

that is one reason why they didn't pursue Brandon Marshall.. a guy that has been traded 3 times in the NFL.

This is exactly what I was going to say. You have to consider salaries when comparing those trades.

 

[dumbrabbit]

Schneider certainly deserves blame for the Hawks decline.

The Harvin trade was one of the 3 worst trades in NFL history. It's impossible to make horrendous trades like that and not decline as a team..

Nothing like Washington's trade to get RG3. Or Minnesota's trade to get Herschel Walker. How many picks did they give up? All we gave up for Harvin was a 1, 3, and a 7.

I think what people confuse the trade with is the results of the trade. The result of the Harvin trade was poor. What they had to give up was not.

 

[mrblitz]

We need to REPLACE guys with cheaper younger guys out of college.

in today's nfl, this has to be 'a thing'... you've got to let your FAs go, and reload through the draft/development. the mistake was giving money to everyone. russell i can see giving the money to, and maybe thomas. the rest of them should have been gone...

 

[mrblitz]

Plus this sentiment that we can just take UDFA and defensive linemen and turn them into serviceable OL is a flawed concept. Sweezy is the exception, not the rule. It puts us in a major hole where we may lose a season because of one position group and that's negligence.

maybe the conversion of defensive linemen is a reach, but udfa can do just fine. new england has a udfa center, and 2 4th rounders at the guards; all 3 rookies. plus, they rotate o-linemen. they're ahead of the curve.

converting defensive linemen might also be ahead of the curve, we just don't have enough data yet to tell, one way or the other...

 

[LymonHawk]

Plus this sentiment that we can just take UDFA and defensive linemen and turn them into serviceable OL is a flawed concept. Sweezy is the exception, not the rule. It puts us in a major hole where we may lose a season because of one position group and that's negligence.

maybe the conversion of defensive linemen is a reach, but udfa can do just fine. new england has a udfa center, and 2 4th rounders at the guards; all 3 rookies. plus, they rotate o-linemen. they're ahead of the curve.

converting defensive linemen might also be ahead of the curve, we just don't have enough data yet to tell, one way or the other...

New England has a better QB, who's not afraid to throw the friggin' ball, and has an active sex life.

 

[Hawks46]

They have made some questionable moves.

"We spent a 5th rounder on Kelcie McCray. Jets got a WR1 (Brandon Marshall) for the same cost. Let that sink in." - Good point by DavidSeven in another thread

JS can draft but isn't good at making solid trades. We almost always overpay.

I'd agree with this. The only issue was that Marshal wasn't going to be cheap, and after Harvin, I can't blame Schneider for not going after another known head case and attitude problem.

We have good route runners, and have had good route runners. Our QB isn't seeing them and his accuracy on short and intermediate passes seems to have gotten worse this year, not better. Let's call a spade a spade here. Wilson has had a ton of offseason distractions going on, and it seems he didn't put in his usual work load to improve (to be fair, the guy does deserve a life).