Britt's PFF grade for Preseason Week 3

[MizzouHawkGal]

Rookies gonna rook.

After Walter Jones, we are all spoiled. No need to rag on Okung.

Exactly. Walter Jones was a one of a kind player. Okung is fine.

 

[Largent80]

Okung had problems with both ankles early in his career, and now the surgery. He has been dinged every year, It kinda seems like the norm on O-Lines in this era of the NFL.

When I was younger and an L.A. Rams fan, their excellent O-Line was almost always healthy. However, the size and speed of players has increased dramatically. Pretty much linemen were in the 270 pound range, now, 300+ is the norm and with that came the injury bug.

They don't grow on trees and are almost as important as a QB.

Britt looks like he is going to be solid, but we will have to go through the same process as we did with Breno.

 

[Alexander]

And nothing speaks louder than the lack of a contract extension. If the Seahawks had any plans to sign Okung, they would have done so this offseason, when it made the most sense. The new cap increase hasn't hit yet, you don't have to worry about your QB, and signing an extension now gives the front office some room to play with the cap and figure it out. Instead, the Seahawks sat on their hands.

Why in God's green earth would they extend a linemen with two years left on his contract? If he gets seriously hurt, then you're stuck with his signing bonus. And of course they do have to worry about Russell Wilson's extension--- because it hasn't happened yet. Will it be for $20 million a year on a team-friendly deal like Kaepernick's or will it be some kind of megadeal in excess of that? The answer is they don't know. Therefore, signing a massive extension for a player with two years left on his contract makes no sense at this time. They need as much flexibility as they can get for next year.

If you believe this to be true, then ask yourself why didn't they extend Bobby Wagner (also two years left on his deal)?

Bottom line: If Okung rebounds from his foot injury and has another Pro Bowl year, you will all look as silly as Percy Harvin's critics now look. Okung's salary in 2015 is extremely team friendly, BTW.

I don't think they're allowed to renegotiate Wagner's contract until next offseason (same draft class as Wilson).

 

[ivotuk]

Rookies gonna rook.

After Walter Jones, we are all spoiled. No need to rag on Okung.

Thank you.

And Bailey is a major step down. I dont know why I keep seeing people say we'd be fine with Bailey.

I think your looking at it the wrong way. It really doesn't have to do with Okung himself but the money he makes and is going to want to make and whether or not its worth it.

Also, Bailey doesn't have to be the 2012 most healthiest Pro-Bowl version of Russell Okung because right now there a chance that Okung will never return to that level of performance if his toe issues looks like it will never fully recover and it will be a chronic ailment.

Bailey just has to be better than what Paul McQuistan was last year in the first half of the season. . McQuistan was more serviceable-at-best, Bailey looks to me to be at least average-at-best but has much better athleticism all-around.

And Bailey also as to be as good as or better than the rusty, toe hindered Okung that was on the field during the last half of the season.

So, yeah while Bailey is a major step down from the healthiest and best version we've of Okung (and that Okung remains to be seen just yet), Bailey could very well be a step up from what we had at the position in 2013 for much of the season. Just like Britt while not particular good yet is still likely a step up from Bowie and eventually Giacomini.

I doubt Okung will be cut or traded but at the same time it wouldn't bother me one bit if the team might be exploring those options if they think Bailey is a good enough to start and if they feel Okung is no longer part of the future plans.

But Kearly as a point, in that if Okung's contract ended last year, he probably would not be extended... so if he continues to have health issues moving forward, he probably won't be. You guys can argue the point that you just don't walk away from premium Left Tackles.... you do though, if they are becoming damaged goods and can't stay on the field and be consistent on the field. That's the best time to walk away.

If the Seahawks cut Okung this year it would save $6.48 m in 2014 and $7.28 m in 2015. Thats $13.76 m in cap relief. If they cut him 2015, they still save $5 m.

I think your "h" is broken

 

[chris98251]

I see Okung having the Orlando Pace type issues, never really gets healthy. I think we drafted his replacement already if he progresses however.

Well I think the staff thinks so anyway.

79 Gilliam, Garry T 6-6 306 23 R Penn State

 

[hawknation2014]

I see Okung having the Orlando Pace type issues, never really gets healthy. I think we drafted his replacement already if he progresses however.

Well I think the staff thinks so anyway.

79 Gilliam, Garry T 6-6 306 23 R Penn State

Gilliam was an undrafted guy out of Penn State. A year and a half ago he was still playing TE. Good looking athlete with a multitude of technique issues. If Cable molds him into a reliable backup, he will have performed a slight miracle. If he develops into a starter-caliber LT, he is the new Messiah.

 

[DavidSeven]

If the Seahawks had any plans to sign Okung, they would have done so this offseason, when it made the most sense.

Okung has two years left on a deal that pays him pretty well. It wouldn't really make sense for either side to negotiate an extension at this point. We didn't extend Earl Thomas until his final year, and that wasn't a slight on him. There's just not a lot of reason to do it any earlier. Cam Newton is another example.

Okung is the most talented player on a pretty weak O-Line unit. Probably by a lot. If his durability concerns lead Seattle to move on, then so be it. But they'd be damn fools to not get ridiculous trade compensation in return. 31 other teams would love to roll the dice on a blue-chip LT prospect who has already been named a Pro Bowler. If they do decide to move on ,we better hope they clear about $7-10M in cap to sign a legit LT in free agency, because relying on UDFAs at LT for 16 games would be akin to flushing your season down the toilet.

Not to say it's impossible to imagine that PC/JS would move on in two years, but they aren't going to do it with the guys currently on our roster.

 

[HansGruber]

If the Seahawks had any plans to sign Okung, they would have done so this offseason, when it made the most sense.

Okung has two years left on a deal that pays him pretty well. It wouldn't really make sense for either side to negotiate an extension at this point. We didn't extend Earl Thomas until his final year, and that wasn't a slight on him. There's just not a lot of reason to do it any earlier. Cam Newton is another example.

Okung is the most talented player on a pretty weak O-Line unit. Probably by a lot. If his durability concerns lead Seattle to move on, then so be it. But they'd be damn fools to not get ridiculous trade compensation in return. 31 other teams would love to roll the dice on a blue-chip LT prospect who has already been named a Pro Bowler. If they do decide to move on ,we better hope they clear about $7-10M in cap to sign a legit LT in free agency, because relying on UDFAs at LT for 16 games would be akin to flushing your season down the toilet.

Not to say it's impossible to imagine that PC/JS would move on in two years, but they aren't going to do it with the guys currently on our roster.

We did it last year and won a Superbowl.

 

[kearly]

Why in God's green earth would they extend a linemen with two years left on his contract? If he gets seriously hurt, then you're stuck with his signing bonus.

I'm not concerned about that. Seattle tends to hand out shrewd contracts that can be painlessly voided after a couple seasons. Red Bryant, Chris Clemons, Sidney Rice, etc.

Let's say for argument's sake Okung had stayed healthy the last few years and was giving Seattle Trent Williams level performance, and in this scenario we all agreed without a doubt he deserved a big, fat second contract. If so, extending him now would make a lot of sense because the sooner you ink the deal, the less money he'll cost you because NFL inflation year to year is so extreme, especially right now. Because of a rising cap and massive league wide inflation, the difference between signing a guy now vs. next year could be a 10-15% difference in price. Part of what makes Schneider a brilliant GM is that he's always looking to lock players up early because he knows it saves money in the long run.

Yes, there would be some risk to signing a player a year early, maybe he gets injured or tanks his value with poor on-field performance. But that argument cuts both ways. Players HATE getting franchised because it delays their big payday by one year, meaning they are forced to take the risk that their value could plummet the next season. Players always want to sign deals as soon as possible to make sure they get their money. These players know they would make more money by waiting, but are paranoid that if they wait an extra year, it could cost them everything if something goes bad for them. When you just won a million bucks at the blackjack table, your next move probably wouldn't be to double down. You take the money and walk away a winner.

If Seattle wanted Okung for the long haul and they were certain of it, right now is when they would be making him a long term offer. And Okung would be all over it, no doubt. I think the utter lack of contract talks and the subtle tone of disappointment from PC/JS, as well as their draft priorities the last two years hints that Okung is not a part of their 3 year model right now.

Maybe that changes if Okung gets and stays healthy this year. Not saying they've ruled him out. But he does seem like a player who's on the outside looking in when it comes to PC/JS's projected 3 year model.

 

[hawknation2014]

If the Seahawks had any plans to sign Okung, they would have done so this offseason, when it made the most sense.

Okung has two years left on a deal that pays him pretty well. It wouldn't really make sense for either side to negotiate an extension at this point. We didn't extend Earl Thomas until his final year, and that wasn't a slight on him. There's just not a lot of reason to do it any earlier. Cam Newton is another example.

Okung is the most talented player on a pretty weak O-Line unit. Probably by a lot. If his durability concerns lead Seattle to move on, then so be it. But they'd be damn fools to not get ridiculous trade compensation in return. 31 other teams would love to roll the dice on a blue-chip LT prospect who has already been named a Pro Bowler. If they do decide to move on ,we better hope they clear about $7-10M in cap to sign a legit LT in free agency, because relying on UDFAs at LT for 16 games would be akin to flushing your season down the toilet.

Not to say it's impossible to imagine that PC/JS would move on in two years, but they aren't going to do it with the guys currently on our roster.

We did it last year and won a Superbowl.

Without Okung in the lineup, the offensive line played like one of the worst in the league. We don't get to the Super Bowl without Okung making the blocks he did at LT, particularly in the NFC Championship game.

I think I just have a philosophical disagreement with pouring salt in the wounds of players who get hurt. Players don't choose to get hurt while battling for the team. It is true that at some point a player's injuries so diminish his utility that he becomes a detriment to the team. However, we're not anywhere close to that scenario with Okung.

He was a Pro Bowler, and playing at a Pro Bowl level, until he mangled his foot while blocking Justin Smith. The foot was so mangled that it would eventually require surgery, but instead of unmangling the foot during the season, they tried to avoid surgery in the hopes of getting him back sooner. We won a Super Bowl, in part, because Okung battled through a mangled foot and made some incredible blocks for us, including a block on Smith that sprung Lynch free for a critical TD.

Now that Okung is healthy and back in the lineup, why not put away the salt shaker?

 

[DavidSeven]

If they do decide to move on ,we better hope they clear about $7-10M in cap to sign a legit LT in free agency, because relying on UDFAs at LT for 16 games would be akin to flushing your season down the toilet.

We did it last year and won a Superbowl.

Okung played half the regular season and was our starting LT through the entire playoff run. We certainly got by without him, but Russell WIlson also separated his shoulder due to garbage protection while he was out.

 

[kearly]

Okung has two years left on a deal that pays him pretty well. It wouldn't really make sense for either side to negotiate an extension at this point. We didn't extend Earl Thomas until his final year, and that wasn't a slight on him. There's just not a lot of reason to do it any earlier. Cam Newton is another example.

Okung is the most talented player on a pretty weak O-Line unit. Probably by a lot. If his durability concerns lead Seattle to move on, then so be it. But they'd be damn fools to not get ridiculous trade compensation in return. 31 other teams would love to roll the dice on a blue-chip LT prospect who has already been named a Pro Bowler. If they do decide to move on ,we better hope they clear about $7-10M in cap to sign a legit LT in free agency, because relying on UDFAs at LT for 16 games would be akin to flushing your season down the toilet.

Not to say it's impossible to imagine that PC/JS would move on in two years, but they aren't going to do it with the guys currently on our roster.

Some good points.

We don't know what happens behind closed doors, it's possible Seattle made overtures for a Thomas extension in 2013. My guess is that Earl wasn't in a rush to sign early because he already had a ton of money in the bank and he also knew for a fact that he was part of Seattle's long term future. The "sign as early as possible to avoid risk" aspect didn't appeal to Thomas.

Okung is semi-similar in that he's already been paid and seems to be in the NFL more for the love of the game than the love of money. I do think he'd jump at the chance to assure his spot on the Seahawks for the rest of his career though. I think there's a lot of incentive for Okung, but not so much for Seattle. The lack of contract talks is telling. I have a hard time believing that Seattle has made Okung offers behind closed doors and he turned them down.

As said before, the earlier a team signs a player to an extension, the better it is for their financial structure. Not only would LT money be less in 2014 than it will be in 2015 or 2016, but it also removes one more unknown from Seattle's financial planning. If Seattle wanted Okung beyond 2016 they would be best served to extend him now.

The reason the Hawks are not jumping at this opportunity is because Okung's value can't be measured just by his own performance, but by the impact of his absence. Seattle was not ready for life after Okung last season, and the result was that Okung and McQuistan combined for some of the worst LT performance in the league. As bad as McQuistan was, it's not his fault he had to start as many games as he did.

And even with that terrible performance, Seattle still won a SB. Though as you say, Wilson took some bumps and bruises along the way. I don't think anyone is saying this is an ideal setup (which is part of the problem for Okung, those missed games are a big deal). That said, it does point out that if really bad OL play can get you to the promised land, then Seattle should be just fine if they find a guy like Bailey who ends up being a middle of the road LT.

Seattle is more prepared this season with Bailey being what appears to be a competent backup at worst. I think Pete is getting tired of the drama though. He doesn't have a ton of time left coaching in the NFL, and I think there are certain parts of the team he would rather take for granted rather than stress over. LT being one of them.

Seattle is not ready to move on from Okung today, but the hope is that in a year or two they might be. Or heck, maybe Okung finally stays healthy for the next couple years. That could change some minds, certainly. But I do think that at least in this moment of time, Okung is on the outside looking in when it comes to getting a 2nd contract.

Regarding an Okung trade, he's probably done enough at this point to merit a 3rd or 4th round compensation pick, so even if he leaves in FA Seattle should get something in return.

 

[kearly]

I think I just have a philosophical disagreement with pouring salt in the wounds of players who get hurt. Players don't choose to get hurt while battling for the team. It is true that at some point a player's injuries so diminish his utility that he becomes a detriment to the team. However, we're not anywhere close to that scenario with Okung.

Now that Okung is healthy and back in the lineup, why not put away the salt shaker?

Ah now I see the source of discontent.

Nobody is bashing Okung. Okung is a good player, he's even a decent player when playing hurt. His absences must be factored into his value, but when he's on the field, he's good.

Hans and I are simply speculating on how PC/JS currently value him, and how their actions hint at how Okung fits into their 3 year model.

 

[hawknation2014]

I think I just have a philosophical disagreement with pouring salt in the wounds of players who get hurt. Players don't choose to get hurt while battling for the team. It is true that at some point a player's injuries so diminish his utility that he becomes a detriment to the team. However, we're not anywhere close to that scenario with Okung.

Now that Okung is healthy and back in the lineup, why not put away the salt shaker?

Ah now I see the source of discontent.

Nobody is bashing Okung. We are simply speculating on how PC/JS currently value him, and how their actions hint at how Okung fits into their 3 year model.

They value him as a starter at LT. It's futile to speculate what will happen two full seasons from now. We hope very good things . . . namely, more Pro Bowls and Super Bowl victories and the continued health of Russell Okung.

We know Okung is going to make the team this year. And if he's healthy, he will be back next year on a team friendly deal ($4.8 million in base salary plus bonuses and incentives). Depending on what happens over the next two years, Okung will be in line for another extension, unless they magically pull a rabbit out of their hat and discover another Pro Bowl LT on the roster.

 

[DavidSeven]

Okung is semi-similar in that he's already been paid and seems to be in the NFL more for the love of the game than the love of money. I do think he'd jump at the chance to assure his spot on the Seahawks for the rest of his career though. I think there's a lot of incentive for Okung, but not so much for Seattle. The lack of contract talks is telling. I have a hard time believing that Seattle has made Okung offers behind closed doors and he turned them down.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Seattle hasn't made those overtures to Okung yet. They may very well want to see how he bounces back from injury and if he can stay healthy in 2014. That's definitely a prudent approach to take for a guy who has had various injury issues. However, if he has a good (and healthy) year, I'd imagine they'd want to re-sign him.

As said before, the earlier a team signs a player to an extension, the better it is for their financial structure. Not only would LT money be less in 2014 than it will be in 2015 or 2016, but it also removes one more unknown from Seattle's financial planning. If Seattle wanted Okung beyond 2016 they would be best served to extend him now.

I think his durability is a legitimate concern that would keep the FO from extending him this early, but I wouldn't necessarily leap to the conclusion that he isn't in their plans for 2016 and beyond. They just want another year to think about it (and having another year to review the FA and draft landscape for potential replacements is important, too).

The reason the Hawks are not jumping at this opportunity is because Okung's value can't be measured just by his own performance, but by the impact of his absence. Seattle was not ready for life after Okung last season, and the result was that Okung and McQuistan combined for some of the worst LT performance in the league. As bad as McQuistan was, it's not his fault he had to start as many games as he did.

And even with that terrible performance, Seattle still won a SB. Though as you say, Wilson took some bumps and bruises along the way. I don't think anyone is saying this is an ideal setup (which is part of the problem for Okung, those missed games are a big deal). That said, it does point out that if really bad OL play can get you to the promised land, then Seattle should be just fine if they find a guy like Bailey who ends up being a middle of the road LT.


Seattle is more prepared this season with Bailey being what appears to be a competent backup at worst. I think Pete is getting tired of the drama though. He doesn't have a ton of time left coaching in the NFL, and I think there are certain parts of the team he would rather take for granted rather than stress over. LT being one of them.

Seattle is not ready to move on from Okung today, but the hope is that in a year or two they might be. Or heck, maybe Okung finally stays healthy for the next couple years. That could change some minds, certainly. But I do think that at least in this moment of time, Okung is on the outside looking in when it comes to getting a 2nd contract.

Regarding an Okung trade, he's probably done enough at this point to merit a 3rd or 4th round compensation pick, so even if he leaves in FA Seattle should get something in return.

Fair points. However, while I love Bailey as an emergency LT and utility lineman, I just don't see him as a 16-game starting LT in the NFL. Maybe that is a rash judgment, but LT is one of the few positions where pedigree (i.e. draft grade, college performance) actually does seem to matter. I do think Seattle can get away with lesser play at that position, but relying on UDFAs and journeymen at the second most crucial spot on offense just doesn't sit well with me. I'm fine with them re-evaluating their options at LT, but I think replacing Okung would require dipping into free agency or somehow getting a top-15 pick.

 

[scutterhawk]

whats so unreasonable with kearly's post? unless okung stays healthy all year, it would be "insane" to extend him, based off his injury history. this is a critical juncture for him. what happened last year when he went down? mcquistan happened, thats what :? . if okung is injured again and u extend okung after the season, then u still need to make sure u have a backup in place for when he goes down, again. he should prove he can be healthy for a full 16. i have no doubt that if he goes down this season or just performs sub-par that the okung experiment is over.

And rightfully so.
It's pretty straight forward really, you want the payday?, you had better prove that you can stay on the field to earn it, otherwise, we'll need to find someone that can help us with forming that missing continuity.

 

[Largent80]

Pretty simple. Okung does NOT deserve to be extended at this point

 

[kearly]

I think his durability is a legitimate concern that would keep the FO from extending him this early, but I wouldn't necessarily leap to the conclusion that he isn't in their plans for 2016 and beyond. They just want another year to think about it (and having another year to review the FA and draft landscape for potential replacements is important, too).

I'm just saying that right now in this moment in time that I think Okung is on the outside looking in. Doesn't mean he can't change minds, or that Seattle might be desperate enough to take him back. There's also the chance that his market value could be shot and he could appeal to Seattle as a bargain buy.

I can see some scenarios where he comes back but I think there's more than a 50% likelihood he does not, and the behavior and decisions of PC/JS in the last year or so has me thinking they are preparing for life after Okung already.

That's not to say they've made up their minds or anything. More like hedging their bets with a growing sense of skepticism.

Fair points. However, while I love Bailey as an emergency LT and utility lineman, I just don't see him as a 16-game starting LT in the NFL. Maybe that is a rash judgment, but LT is one of the few positions where pedigree (i.e. draft grade, college performance) actually does seem to matter. I do think Seattle can get away with lesser play at that position, but relying on UDFAs and journeymen at the second most crucial spot on offense just doesn't sit well with me. I'm fine with them re-evaluating their options at LT, but I think replacing Okung would require dipping into free agency or somehow getting a top-15 pick.

I don't think we need a star LT, for a run heavy, play action team with the NFL's most elusive QB, an adequate LT should be just fine. And getting an adequate LT isn't too difficult. Tyler Polumbus was a decent LT and Seattle got him for nothing. The desperate Ravens picked up Eugene Monroe for a 4th+5th and it was a good buy for them. There are usually opportunities for solid starters. I think the team's shotgun approach to OL in the draft has worked decently well so far.

I am slightly concerned about Bailey's "want to," but I definitely think he has enough ability. If he's giving less than 100% in 2015 during his first contract year, then I might start to worry then.

The part that is a little frustrating is that there have been some lineman I've liked a lot in the last few drafts in the mid rounds that Seattle has passed on who've been pretty good in the NFL. In particular, seeing David Bakhtiari (4th round pick) be every bit as good as I thought he'd be with Green Bay at left tackle has been a kick in the nuts.

 

[kearly]

They value him as a starter at LT. It's futile to speculate what will happen two full seasons from now.

IMO, PC/JS have been fairly transparent with their intentions the last few years. They sign players to contracts with easy outs after two years, and then they ditch them once the easy outs come up. They generally let go of players they chose not to extend the year before. They typically extend players they want to keep at the first opportunity to do so. They tend to acquire replacements a year or two before those new players replace the starters. For example, when Seattle traded for Harvin most people realized that Tate's days in Seattle were probably numbered, including Tate himself.

I think there has been more than enough signs to suggest that Okung has to "prove" himself to PC/JS to get back into their long term financial plans. And by that, I really just mean "stay healthy," because he's been a good player when he's out there.