Bruce Irvin

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Played well? In those 43 snaps, Irvin had two tackles and zero sacks.

Like statistics mean jack squat... imo Irvin had two jobs 1) Occupy blockers so guys like Wagner, Thomas, Chanchellor, and Wright could clean up. 2) Lock down his coverage responsbility.

The fact that Irvin was basically invisible doesn't mean he wasn't doing his job, but it could have meant he was doing the job that was asked, so that others could do theirs.

Said the #1 Defense in many major categories.

Using individual stats on defense is kind of lame when in the bigger picture its all about the scheme and everyone playing to their assignment.

No Irvin wasn't special at SLB... is anyone arguing that... but let's not act like he was a total hindrance and a failure out there... if you personally asked Quinn or Carroll on the real... what they thought of Irvin his first season at LBer... I'll bet my soul that they would say that he exceeded their expectations and that he also played the position more naturally than expected.

Irvin statistically had a similar year to KJ Wright did as a rookie except Irvin was probably better in coverage because he wasn't as contested as much.

And sorry that guys like Chris Clemons, Cliff Avril, and Michael Bennett who combined to almost make 20 million in 2013 were all quality DEs and doing well... so much so that Irvin wasn't needed.

The Seahawks even had a talented player in O'brien Schofield that ended up on the inactive roster for some games and got little playing time despite having some quality games in the first two matches vs Car and SF. But once Clemons came back and both him and Avril were healthy... OBS couldn't get on the field.

Seahawks had a good situation last year... don't know why you got punish Irvin for basically doing the job he was asked to do and having to make it more than it is... when its a non-story... again said the greatest Defense the NFL has seen since the 2000 Ravens.

One thing for sure not many LBers in the NFL can play shutdown coverage on WRs... Irvin is one of these playerss.

 

[Scottemojo]

I am pretty sure Seattle will pick up Irvin's option next year. So for all the speculation of how disappointing he has been, I am speculating that Pete loves him as a up front super athletic swiss army knife.

Bruce saw 464 snaps last year. Which is disappointing to some, but to me, that is a lot of snaps for a guy learning a new position. On top of that, he played a pivotal role in a win, with one of the best interceptions of the year in a road win vs the Rams. (He also played an accidental role in a loss, the long TD Sherman gave up to Hilton in the Indy game looked to me like Sherman was caught trying to cover up for a play he thought Irvin was beat on) Irvin played some secondary in JUCO, and some of that showed in that play that was a display of his athletic ability. It seems to me that many have forgotten the hit he put on Graham that jarred the ball loose and helped set the tone in that Monday night ass kicking. That hit was 20 yards down the field and was not Irvin's zone area to cover, he showed a lot of hustle to get there. Many of those snaps Irvin would execute a zone that looked like he covered no one, but prevented a RB from catching passes in space on the wide side of the field. Which is why anyone looking at his sack totals is missing the point. I also think it is worth pointing out that nobody got more than 600 snaps on the DL last year. One of the lessons Pete took from 2012 is not to wear guys out, Clemons logged over 1000 snaps and didn't complete the year. I realize that Irvin was a LB and not a DL last year, but his constant backup role on the DL meant he too was on a snap count.

Fans may not like his current role, hell, I don't think Irvin likes his current role, he is fully aware that sacks=dollars come contract time, but how do you put a numeric value on a player who allows you to carry one less DE or LB on the game day active roster? Versatile players like Irvin were the reason Seattle was able to carry someone like Harvin on the 53 last year. We were one injury away from having to IR Harvin a number of times, and if Harvin had been IR'ed, he would be the talk of our off season. I feel I personally owe Irvin some thanks for his versatility so that I don't have to put up with the constant shitstream of Harvin threads like flooded .NET last year.

I look forward to seeing Irvin grow in his current role. I want to see better flow to the ball when his assignment to contain is over, more attack and less finesse in run support when he has end contain, and I want to see him man up a bit more on a TE. If I am Pete, I have my guys put together a reel on Karlos Dansby and show Irvin how he can get paid without getting a ton of sacks.

 

[RiverDog]

Played well? In those 43 snaps, Irvin had two tackles and zero sacks.

Like statistics mean jack squat... imo Irvin had two jobs 1) Occupy blockers so guys like Wagner, Thomas, Chanchellor, and Wright could clean up. 2) Lock down his coverage responsbility.

The fact that Irvin was basically invisible doesn't mean he wasn't doing his job, but it could have meant he was doing the job that was asked, so that others could do theirs.

Said the #1 Defense in many major categories.

Using individual stats on defense is kind of lame when in the bigger picture its all about the scheme and everyone playing to their assignment.

No Irvin wasn't special at SLB... is anyone arguing that... but let's not act like he was a total hindrance and a failure out there... if you personally asked Quinn or Carroll on the real... what they thought of Irvin his first season at LBer... I'll bet my soul that they would say that he exceeded their expectations and that he also played the position more naturally than expected.

Irvin statistically had a similar year to KJ Wright did as a rookie except Irvin was probably better in coverage because he wasn't as contested as much.

And sorry that guys like Chris Clemons, Cliff Avril, and Michael Bennett who combined to almost make 20 million in 2013 were all quality DEs and doing well... so much so that Irvin wasn't needed.

The Seahawks even had a talented player in O'brien Schofield that ended up on the inactive roster for some games and got little playing time despite having some quality games in the first two matches vs Car and SF. But once Clemons came back and both him and Avril were healthy... OBS couldn't get on the field.

Seahawks had a good situation last year... don't know why you got punish Irvin for basically doing the job he was asked to do and having to make it more than it is... when its a non-story... again said the greatest Defense the NFL has seen since the 2000 Ravens.

One thing for sure not many LBers in the NFL can play shutdown coverage on WRs... Irvin is one of these playerss.

If he were playing DE, yes, that would have been his job. That's the primary job of the front 4, not the linebackers. Wright wasn't even playing that game, and Wagner played beside Irvin, not behind him. A linebacker's job is to fill holes and to make tackles. Like it or not, tackles, assists, TOL's, QB sacks, forced fumbles, et al are all yardsticks by which to measure a LB's performance. Wagner and Malcolm both had 9 tackles in that game, although to be fair, they also saw 40% more snaps. But Irvin usually came out on third downs in our nickel package, meaning he should have been in there on a higher percentage of running plays.

If you want to claim that he played well and that you are completely satisfied with his progress, then fine. You are entitled to your opinion, and you don't have to go to great lengths to explain it to me, I'll accept it for what it is. I'm not trying to change your opinion, rather I am explaining mine. But don't tell me that stats don't mean jack squat simply because theses particular ones don't happen to agree with your premise. You certainly made good use of stats in your previous posts, including the one above. Either they are relevant or they don't mean jack. You can't cherry pick some that you like and tell me that others don't mean jack. You can't have it both ways.

The other thing about Irvin that is being overlooked is that he was a #15 overall. During Pete's regime, there's only two other players on our squad, both Pro Bowlers, that were selected with a higher draft selection than was Irvin. Fair or not, that high of a draft pick brings with it increased expectations. At the moment, Irvin is not living up to those expectations. That doesn't mean that I consider him to be a failure. All I am saying is that he's not living up to the expectations that come with a #15 overall.

All the excuses are gone this year. No more being a rookie, no more PED suspension, no more learning a new position to rationalize his play. It's his third season.

 

[drrew]

I didn't realize there were so many Irvin fans on this board. My OP was simply a matter of attempting to state that Bruce Irvin has lower expectations than any other 1st rounder the SEAHAWKS have drafted in the 1st round mainly because of the success of Russell Wilson.

I like Bruce Irvin. I like his potential. IMHO he has less pressure as a 1st rounder to succeed.
BTW, of his 8 sacks as a rookie, 7 of those came in the first 10 games. So over his last 23 games he has recorded 4 sacks.

There are so many things wrong with what you're writing. First, lower expectations from whom? The fans? The front office? You? There are lower expectations for Bruce Irvin by any of those groups than James Carpenter? Lawrence Jackson? Lamar f'ing King?

Second, you're using sack numbers to denigrate his play without acknowledging that he moved from a position where his role was to pass rush 100% of the time his rookie year to a pass rush probably less than 50% of the time in year two.

Do you get upset at all of the non pass rushers for their lack of sacks? KJ Wright has 4.5 for his career, in your eyes he must be absolutely horrible.

I didn't realize there were so many Bruce Irvin haters on this board. He's played two years and put up numbers comparable or better to any DE/LB taken in the 1st round of the 2012 draft with the exception of Chandler Jones. I'm not sure what about his play or production there is to be upset about.

 

[ivotuk]

Irvin was great his first year when he was a pass rush specialist. He led all rookies in sacks.

Last year he was learning a new position and had way less opportunities for sacks. He had a couple good games last year but was inconsistent and Smith took off. Irvin saw less and less time because as it came down to crunch time he was not the best fit out there. We didn't have time for a guy to be learning on the job and going through struggles while we're in a playoff run.

So, yeah, last year was kind of a down year for Irvin, but his first year most people thought he was great. Our image of him was tainted by the Atlanta game when he was thrust into the LEO role and expected to single-handedly save our pass rush. Those expectations were unfair and when he failed, people kind of soured on him. Add in last year's experiment and you get threads like this.

Irvin still has a lot of talent and next year I have a feeling we're going to see him return to more of the role that he had his rookie year to take advantage of his strengths.

Good post, except for the part about Smith taking Irvin's reps. K.J. Wright took Irvin's reps at SLB in the last two games, while Smith played the WLB position in the last six games after Wright got hurt.

In the Super Bowl, Wright played 50 reps at SLB, while Irvin played just 17.

In the NFCCG, Irvin and Wright split the snap count at SLB with Irvin playing 23 snaps and Wright playing 16.

IN the NFC Division, Wright was still out, so Irvin took every rep at SLB and Smith took every rep at WLB; however, Smith left the field for 22 reps when they went to the nickel formation with either Thurmond or Lane.

These and other posts demonstrate the maturity of this board. No jumping on the OP, no belittling the topic, just great, measured responses showing a different view of the subject. Of course maybe they were lenient because it's "old"hawkfan

I really enjoyed reading these posts as opposed to the "what were you thinking!" type of responses from those just looking for something to be outraged about.

In response to the OP, some of Bruce's struggle's are on the coaching staff learning how to use him. With his physical talent, once they work out where he fits best (ala Red Bryant), and once Irvin learns that position well, I believe he will be getting Pro Bowl votes and will be a big difference maker on this team.

Fortunately we have the kind of coaching staff that isn't afraid to move chess pieces around to see where they fit best.

 

[CamanoIslandJQ]

I see Irvin as a "speed" LEO pass rusher -only-. He consistently gets tied up by the opposing players and gets run out on wide arcs, often getting nowhere near the QB. There is indeed a certain amount of value in the speed rush department as far as disruption is concerned. However, with Avril possibly gone next year, another LEO candidate is obviously needed to keep the Defense strong in years to come.

I'd like to have a LEO like this guy, notice how he gets off blocks, seals the edge and gets into the backfield. He's also very effective (unlike Irvin) in the run game, speed isn't the only way to get the job done. Currently a probable 2-nd round pick that MAY last until #64.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Mx35rVhmvk

 

[McGruff]

Irvin's supposedly "awful" game in Atlanta is itself a myth.

Prior to that game, the Seahawks had three identifiably pass rushers: Chris Clemons, Bruce Irvin and Jason Jones.

Jason Jones was injured prior to the playoffs, leaving Seattle with just Clemons and Irvin. Incidently, Jones went down after game 15. Playing without Jones, Clemons did not have a single sack in final three games in the season. Interesting fact . . .

When Clemons went down in Washington, we were left with one pass rusher . . . Bruce Irvin. If this year has taught us anything, its that pass rushing is a synergystic affair. When you have three bonafied pass rushers, it makes it very hard for an offensive line. When you have just two, it gets a LOT easier. When you fall to just one, you are more or less screwed. Irvin had no one else on that line to compliment him. No one. The problem in Atlanta wasn't that Bruce failed in Clemon's role . . . its that there was no one to fill Irvin's role.

 

[Scottemojo]

Irvin's supposedly "awful" game in Atlanta is itself a myth.

Prior to that game, the Seahawks had three identifiably pass rushers: Chris Clemons, Bruce Irvin and Jason Jones.

Jason Jones was injured prior to the playoffs, leaving Seattle with just Clemons and Irvin. Incidently, Jones went down after game 15. Playing without Jones, Clemons did not have a single sack in final three games in the season. Interesting fact . . .

When Clemons went down in Washington, we were left with one pass rusher . . . Bruce Irvin. If this year has taught us anything, its that pass rushing is a synergystic affair. When you have three bonafied pass rushers, it makes it very hard for an offensive line. When you have just two, it gets a LOT easier. When you fall to just one, you are more or less screwed. Irvin had no one else on that line to compliment him. No one. The problem in Atlanta wasn't that Bruce failed in Clemon's role . . . its that there was no one to fill Irvin's role.

Bruce got flat rolled trying to stop the run in that game too. It wasn't all about a lack of sacks.

 

[hawknation2014]

Irvin's supposedly "awful" game in Atlanta is itself a myth.

Prior to that game, the Seahawks had three identifiably pass rushers: Chris Clemons, Bruce Irvin and Jason Jones.

Jason Jones was injured prior to the playoffs, leaving Seattle with just Clemons and Irvin. Incidently, Jones went down after game 15. Playing without Jones, Clemons did not have a single sack in final three games in the season. Interesting fact . . .

When Clemons went down in Washington, we were left with one pass rusher . . . Bruce Irvin. If this year has taught us anything, its that pass rushing is a synergystic affair. When you have three bonafied pass rushers, it makes it very hard for an offensive line. When you have just two, it gets a LOT easier. When you fall to just one, you are more or less screwed. Irvin had no one else on that line to compliment him. No one. The problem in Atlanta wasn't that Bruce failed in Clemon's role . . . its that there was no one to fill Irvin's role.

Bruce got flat rolled trying to stop the run in that game too. It wasn't all about a lack of sacks.

That was Irvin's rookie year. He's a bigger, stronger player now than he was in 2012. Last year, he showed good progress in playing the run at SLB. Admittedly, that's different than playing with his hand down. In the ideal world, Irvin won't have to be counted on to be an every down player at LEO because they will have both Bennett and Avril healthy.

But in those obvious passing situations, Irvin has proven himself (eight sacks and 19 quarterback hits in limited action as a rookie). When they substituted Clemons out, we briefly saw Irvin playing with his hand down at LEO in the Super Bowl. He gives them more explosiveness off the edge in those obvious passing situations and allows them to rush both Avril and Bennett together from the other side of the line. Avril, Bennett, and Irvin form a dangerous pass rushing combo.

 

[themunn]

Irvin didn't play Leo in his rookie year, except for one game after Clemmons got hurt in the playoffs. In that game, vs. Atlanta in the divisional round, he looked awful, which might have had something to do with his move to OLB.

We also have to remember that was the 18th game of a long, tough season, a position he hadn't played all season in a 2nd consecutive road game - starting at 10am PST. They say rookies tend to hit a wall towards the end of a season because they're not used to playing 16 games. So what happens when they play 18?

I don't think they'd rule him out as a Leo after one performance against one of the best QBs in the league at beating the passrush.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Played well? In those 43 snaps, Irvin had two tackles and zero sacks.

Like statistics mean jack squat... imo Irvin had two jobs 1) Occupy blockers so guys like Wagner, Thomas, Chanchellor, and Wright could clean up. 2) Lock down his coverage responsbility.

The fact that Irvin was basically invisible doesn't mean he wasn't doing his job, but it could have meant he was doing the job that was asked, so that others could do theirs.

Said the #1 Defense in many major categories.

Using individual stats on defense is kind of lame when in the bigger picture its all about the scheme and everyone playing to their assignment.

No Irvin wasn't special at SLB... is anyone arguing that... but let's not act like he was a total hindrance and a failure out there... if you personally asked Quinn or Carroll on the real... what they thought of Irvin his first season at LBer... I'll bet my soul that they would say that he exceeded their expectations and that he also played the position more naturally than expected.

Irvin statistically had a similar year to KJ Wright did as a rookie except Irvin was probably better in coverage because he wasn't as contested as much.

And sorry that guys like Chris Clemons, Cliff Avril, and Michael Bennett who combined to almost make 20 million in 2013 were all quality DEs and doing well... so much so that Irvin wasn't needed.

The Seahawks even had a talented player in O'brien Schofield that ended up on the inactive roster for some games and got little playing time despite having some quality games in the first two matches vs Car and SF. But once Clemons came back and both him and Avril were healthy... OBS couldn't get on the field.

Seahawks had a good situation last year... don't know why you got punish Irvin for basically doing the job he was asked to do and having to make it more than it is... when its a non-story... again said the greatest Defense the NFL has seen since the 2000 Ravens.

One thing for sure not many LBers in the NFL can play shutdown coverage on WRs... Irvin is one of these playerss.

If he were playing DE, yes, that would have been his job. That's the primary job of the front 4, not the linebackers. Wright wasn't even playing that game, and Wagner played beside Irvin, not behind him. A linebacker's job is to fill holes and to make tackles. Like it or not, tackles, assists, TOL's, QB sacks, forced fumbles, et al are all yardsticks by which to measure a LB's performance. Wagner and Malcolm both had 9 tackles in that game, although to be fair, they also saw 40% more snaps. But Irvin usually came out on third downs in our nickel package, meaning he should have been in there on a higher percentage of running plays.

If you want to claim that he played well and that you are completely satisfied with his progress, then fine. You are entitled to your opinion, and you don't have to go to great lengths to explain it to me, I'll accept it for what it is. I'm not trying to change your opinion, rather I am explaining mine. But don't tell me that stats don't mean jack squat simply because theses particular ones don't happen to agree with your premise. You certainly made good use of stats in your previous posts, including the one above. Either they are relevant or they don't mean jack. You can't cherry pick some that you like and tell me that others don't mean jack. You can't have it both ways.

The other thing about Irvin that is being overlooked is that he was a #15 overall. During Pete's regime, there's only two other players on our squad, both Pro Bowlers, that were selected with a higher draft selection than was Irvin. Fair or not, that high of a draft pick brings with it increased expectations. At the moment, Irvin is not living up to those expectations. That doesn't mean that I consider him to be a failure. All I am saying is that he's not living up to the expectations that come with a #15 overall.

All the excuses are gone this year. No more being a rookie, no more PED suspension, no more learning a new position to rationalize his play. It's his third season.

Cmon Bro. You're not even arguing what I'm arguing.

In 2011, KJ Wright started 12 games and played in 16.

As a SAM backer, per pfref.com, he posted:

61 Tackles, 2 Sacks, 2 PD, 1 FF, 1 FR

It could be argued that Wright is one of the most instinctive players on the field.

In 2012, Bruce Irvin started 12 games out of 12 games. He posted:

45 Tackles, 2 Sacks, 2 PD, 1 FF, 1 INT.

Differences:

1. 2011defense wasn't as strong or cohesive as the 2013 team especially the front 7.
2. Nor did the 2011 defense feature the barrage of quality play-makers the 2013 defense had.
3. As stated above Wright is a cerebral player with years of LBer training.
4. Irvin was in his first year, and one wouldn't consider him an instinctive player.
5. And probably the most important was the scheme:

In 2011, Wright had Red Bryant in front of him absorbing multiple blockers in what was likely Bryant's best year ever.

In 2013, Quinn switched it up moving Wright to WLB and Bryant to the Weakside.

It meant Irvin at SAM, more often than not played the strong side with a smaller LEO rather than a space-eating 5tech, which meant Irvin had to not only set the strong-side edge but occupy a blocker, so others could kill the play. Seahawks bread and butter was playing Earl in a single high with Kam close to the line... Seahawks were pretty much running a 3-5-3.

6. Again, 2011 Wright and 2013 Irvin were basically similar players... Wright was better at shedding blocks and making instinctive plays but Irvin's elite athleticism made a quality coverage defender and he wasn't picked on as much as Wright was.

You have your opinion, and I have mine... but the truth is Bruce Irvin has been nothing but solid...not great but far above all the negative opinions of him. FFS, he was a sarting member on one of the best defenses in NFL history... and the Seahawks had more experienced LBers they could have gone with but they didn't.

 

[oldhawkfan]

I'm glad my OP has sparked some conversation about Bruce Irvin. It is my hope that he turns into the player that his potential suggests he may become. I have enjoyed reading the back and forth on him. It seems that most hold out hope that he will be a major player, some that he is already a steady player, and others that he may become nothing more than he already is. Whatever that may be.

With the intent I had in the original post, maybe I should have titled it, "The psychology of a draft class". I completely understand and agree with those who argue that an always comPETE philosophy renders draft position moot. I also understand those who question why Irvin is even compared to RW. They play completely different positions on different sides of the ball. When a team finishes its yearly draft, each player is discussed and analyzed in respect to their potential impact on the teams future success. At the completion of the draft, the top pick has more expectations of him than the last pick. In our minds, we hope and virtually assign pick number one a starting role. By the time we weave our analizations down to the final pick, we have assigned him to ST or practice squad development guy. Of course team needs play a huge role in this psychology.

Perhaps another way I could have approached this topic was by way of a poll. Something along the lines of rate the 2012 draft class in order of impact and importance to the team. I was in no way comparing BI to RW, only their relative draft status vs impact on the team. If RW and Bobby Wagoner came a year before or after BI, would we look at him any differently. I believe the answer to that question is absolutely yes. I have been following the draft closely for the past 30 years. There is a huge importance put upon the success of the #1 pick. Chuck Knox used to talk about getting an "impact player" with that pick. The late round success of JC/PS is an abberation. Because of their late round success, we have excused their lack of impact players with their number one picks. Because of PC/JS and the success of RW, Bruce Irvin is given a litte more patience in his development.

 

[cacksman]

Bruce was also spying Kap in the 4th quarter of the NFCCG.

 

[THE TABS]

Said it before, and I'll say it again; Irvin was a swing and miss. He can't find a position, and we passed on David DeCastro, who would have upgraded our interior line in a big way.

 

[niveky]

I think that we are going to see him have a great year this season since there have been hints that he will be used more on the d-line again next year.

 

[hawknation2014]

Said it before, and I'll say it again; Irvin was a swing and miss. He can't find a position, and we passed on David DeCastro, who would have upgraded our interior line in a big way.

Irvin started 14 games last year for one of the most dominant defenses in the history of the league.

His sack rate in 2012 (2.54%) was one of the league's highest that year.

He has shown the versatility to both rush the passer and be an adequate stater at SLB. More than half of the First Rounders in the 2012 class have done less than Irvin. And he still has TWO YEARS left on his rookie deal. The nail is not in the coffin, not even close.

 

[Happy]

Said it before, and I'll say it again; Irvin was a swing and miss. He can't find a position, and we passed on David DeCastro, who would have upgraded our interior line in a big way.

You know who's a swing and a miss? Aaron fricken Curry.

Bruce is a productive player in an elite unit. That's good enough for me.


Not saying any opinion is inherently more correct than the other though, it's actually interesing to see it from different perspectives.

-h

 

[Sac]

Clearly,.he's not Robert Quinn, but he has value and we're not breaking the bank so....

 

[Tical21]

Does he pencil in as a starter this season?

I'm really trying to stay optimistic a;bout this kid, and I really like his personality, but I just don't see it as a player. As a pass rusher, I don't see him being slippery. He tends to dance with linemen, which is the one thing you absolutely can't do. As a 4-3 outside linebacker, you are setup for success. You have a relatively small scope of responsibility. It is hard to get noticed for subpar performance. The only thing you really will be noticed for is making splash plays, or possibly giving up a bunch in the run game, even though that tends to fall more to the D-Line. The splash plays just weren't there. IMO his best play of the season was the breakup of the corner route to Jimmy Graham, and even on that play, he bit huge on the run action. To me, linebacker is an innate position. I have hopes, and am by no means giving up on him, but I can't picture what the next level looks like for him.

 

[hawknation2014]

Ten First Rounders from 2012 who have done much less than Bruce Irvin (15 starts, 11 sacks, 25 QB hits):

1. Trent Richardson- averaged less than three yards per carry last year.
2. Justin Blackmon- indefinite suspension for his third violation of the league's substance abuse policy.
3. Morris Claiborne- lost his starting job and struggled with injuries.
4. Dre Kirkpatrick- has started only three games.
5. Melvin Ingraham- has started only three games.
6. Shea McClellin- fewer starts, tackles, sacks, QB hits, etc.
7. Brandon Weeden- lost starting job, cut, and signed as a backup.
8. Nick Perry- fewer starts, tackles, sacks, QB hits, etc.
9. David Wilson- only six total starts and 29 receptions.
10. A. J. Jenkins- LOL.

It could be A LOT worse . . . just sayin'.