Brutal honesty

[JimmyG]

Outsider perspective here, but coordinators and position coaches make for good scapegoats because they're not the people anyone roots for, and because we as fans don't have a window into what they're doing and not doing, nor do we really have the expertise to evaluate it if we did have a window.

100% agree. And also because they are low-hanging fruit. "Oh, if we could just fire Bevell and bring in someone else, our offense would improve so much. His replacement doesn't even have to be great. Bevell is just so bad, he is such a hindrance that even bringing someone mediocre in would be a net positive! It would be addition by subtraction."

You see this in every sport. Tyronn Lue was basically hand-picked by LeBron James and has made it to two Finals in a row, and Cleveland fans think he's incompetent.

Every MLB fan in the league thinks that his manager is the worst at bullpen management. (Bullpen management is like the ultimately parallel to playcalling, it is always, always, always viewed with hindsight bias.)

I've never heard a football fan say they like their offensive coordinator.

So, yeah... if you complain about a coach I agree, it's automatically filed under "this person has no idea what they're talking about".

 

[mikeak]

Outsider perspective here, but coordinators and position coaches make for good scapegoats because they're not the people anyone roots for, and because we as fans don't have a window into what they're doing and not doing, nor do we really have the expertise to evaluate it if we did have a window.

100% agree. And also because they are low-hanging fruit. "Oh, if we could just fire Bevell and bring in someone else, our offense would improve so much. His replacement doesn't even have to be great. Bevell is just so bad, he is such a hindrance that even bringing someone mediocre in would be a net positive! It would be addition by subtraction."

You see this in every sport. Tyronn Lue was basically hand-picked by LeBron James and has made it to two Finals in a row, and Cleveland fans think he's incompetent.

Every MLB fan in the league thinks that his manager is the worst at bullpen management. (Bullpen management is like the ultimately parallel to playcalling, it is always, always, always viewed with hindsight bias.)

I've never heard a football fan say they like their offensive coordinator.

So, yeah... if you complain about a coach I agree, it's automatically filed under "this person has no idea what they're talking about".

If you think our offensive coaches are doing a good job then that is automatically filed under "this person has no idea what they're talking about"

If you think what we saw all last year and this year is acceptable and not due to any fault from the offensive coordinators then that is amazing IMHO. If you think they have any fault at all then people can rightfully complain

 

[Siouxhawk]

Outsider perspective here, but coordinators and position coaches make for good scapegoats because they're not the people anyone roots for, and because we as fans don't have a window into what they're doing and not doing, nor do we really have the expertise to evaluate it if we did have a window.

100% agree. And also because they are low-hanging fruit. "Oh, if we could just fire Bevell and bring in someone else, our offense would improve so much. His replacement doesn't even have to be great. Bevell is just so bad, he is such a hindrance that even bringing someone mediocre in would be a net positive! It would be addition by subtraction."

You see this in every sport. Tyronn Lue was basically hand-picked by LeBron James and has made it to two Finals in a row, and Cleveland fans think he's incompetent.

Every MLB fan in the league thinks that his manager is the worst at bullpen management. (Bullpen management is like the ultimately parallel to playcalling, it is always, always, always viewed with hindsight bias.)

I've never heard a football fan say they like their offensive coordinator.

So, yeah... if you complain about a coach I agree, it's automatically filed under "this person has no idea what they're talking about".

I truly like your posts Jimmy. Scapegoating low-hanging fruit is a preoccupation for some around here. :2thumbs:

 

[semiahmoo]

What is most telling is it appears no-one in the league thinks much of Bevell either. If they did he'd be a head coach by now.

The team has been a behind-the-scenes mess for some time and it's clearly bleeding out over the field on game days.

Frankly, the entire coaching staff of this team looks tired and that's reflected in the Jekyll and Hyde output for the last few seasons. We limp into the playoffs, and our throttled by far better teams without any real chance of getting back into the Super Bowl.

Was hoping that somehow this season might be different but it's looking like a rehash of the last couple seasons right now.

Bummer.

Go Hawks?

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

The Hawks will only go to the Super Bowl as long as the offense can get consistent scores. If the Seahawks lose 3 more games, and cannot secure 1st place, they will not go to the Super Bowl.

 

[Ozzy]

I'm not defending Cable at all, but Bevell is the larger problem. He can call plays that try to compensate for our crappy O-line and almost never does. We've got the most mobile QB in the league, but if someone actually tracked the stats on designed bootlegs, we'd probably be in the bottom quarter of the league in terms of percentage.

It's absurd...and so frustrating to watch year, after year, after year, after year.

A few different film guys broke down Bevell in the second half only to find him go to even more 5-7 static pocket pass plays with elementary slow developing route trees. None of them could figure out what Bevell was thinking. I think Hasselbeck was calling out the staff in a sense too. A common theme in this thread is that we will adjust moving forward but they knew we were bad and have been for over a year so how were we surprised that our line got beat play after play? How did this come out of left field and we couldn't even figure out a way to react with a different style of offense even into the 2nd half? It seems odd to me. I'm sure we will get better but it seems like Bevell and the staff are way too reactionary and caught off guard while NE for example is pre-emptive in seeing its problems when self scouting.

 

[semiahmoo]

I'm not defending Cable at all, but Bevell is the larger problem. He can call plays that try to compensate for our crappy O-line and almost never does. We've got the most mobile QB in the league, but if someone actually tracked the stats on designed bootlegs, we'd probably be in the bottom quarter of the league in terms of percentage.

It's absurd...and so frustrating to watch year, after year, after year, after year.

A few different film guys broke down Bevell in the second half only to find him go to even more 5-7 static pocket pass plays with elementary slow developing route trees. None of them could figure out what Bevell was thinking. I think Hasselbeck was calling out the staff in a sense too. A common theme in this thread is that we will adjust moving forward but they knew we were bad and have been for over a year so how were we surprised that our line got beat play after play? How did this come out of left field and we couldn't even figure out a way to react with a different style of offense even into the 2nd half? It seems odd to me. I'm sure we will get better but it seems like Bevell and the staff are way too reactionary and caught off guard while NE for example is pre-emptive in seeing its problems when self scouting.

Yup. It's why Bevell hasn't landed a head coaching gig by now.

He sucks and the league knows it.

Pete should have terminated him two years ago.

 

[Siouxhawk]

The plays we ran were not the problem -- the pressure and lack of a running game was. For the kind of pressure Russ was getting, about the only thing our receivers could do was pivot a 180 out of their stance before Russ could get a pass off.

 

[Seymour]

The plays we ran were not the problem -- the pressure and lack of a running game was. For the kind of pressure Russ was getting, about the only thing our receivers could do was pivot a 180 out of their stance before Russ could get a pass off.

Do you know what brutal honesty means?

Bevell could flip his lid, shoot 100 innocent people, and you would say he wins at a 70% rate.

Has Bevell ever done one single thing in his lifetime that you would be critical of? ...Forget it, I know that answer.

The plays we ran were not THEEEEE problem. There was no THEEEEE problem. There were several, some worse than other. Bevells play calling and lack of adjustment was part of THEEEESE problems.

 

[Ozzy]

The plays we ran were not the problem -- the pressure and lack of a running game was. For the kind of pressure Russ was getting, about the only thing our receivers could do was pivot a 180 out of their stance before Russ could get a pass off.

But you said it yourself Wilson was under a ton of pressure yet we ran MORE 5-7 deep routes looking for chunk plays which makes absolutely no sense. I'm not even saying its a Bevell thing. I'm honestly starting to think its much deeper than that but to say the plays we ran weren't the problem is an odd statement to make. Literally everyone with a trained eye was shocked after re-watching the tape.

 

[Siouxhawk]

The plays we ran were not the problem -- the pressure and lack of a running game was. For the kind of pressure Russ was getting, about the only thing our receivers could do was pivot a 180 out of their stance before Russ could get a pass off.

Do you know what brutal honesty means?

Bevell could flip his lid, shoot 100 innocent people, and you would say he wins at a 70% rate.

Has Bevell ever done one single thing in his lifetime that you would be critical of? ...Forget it, I know that answer.

The plays we ran were not THEEEEE problem. There was no THEEEEE problem. There were several, some worse than other. Bevells play calling and lack of adjustment was part of THEEEESE problems.

I've said before that when things go wrong -- or go the way you'd hoped -- that many factors are at play. The same holds true here. But when I say problem, I'm looking more at the root cause of the breakdown. And in Sunday's game, you bet it was the offensive line foremost, with other snags happening seperately or in relation to the liabilities created by lack of protection or space from the offensive line.

And for what you are stating, I have never said Bevell is infallible, as no human being ever is. I've said time and again that he's the best fit for our offense and I believe that wholeheartedly. He brings Pete's vision of spread-offense ball control to life. And whether you want to give credence to that, it certainly is one of the reasons the Hawks have won nearly 70% of their games the past 5 seasons.

 

[Siouxhawk]

The plays we ran were not the problem -- the pressure and lack of a running game was. For the kind of pressure Russ was getting, about the only thing our receivers could do was pivot a 180 out of their stance before Russ could get a pass off.

But you said it yourself Wilson was under a ton of pressure yet we ran MORE 5-7 deep routes looking for chunk plays which makes absolutely no sense. I'm not even saying its a Bevell thing. I'm honestly starting to think its much deeper than that but to say the plays we ran weren't the problem is an odd statement to make. Literally everyone with a trained eye was shocked after re-watching the tape.

But there was an outlet or hot read, correct? And I swore Doug had 4 or 5 slants across the middle, turning at least 1 into a big gainer. Do you have a feed or link to those analysis? Or all-22 snippets?

Here's what happens too: When Russ is being chased 10 yards into the backfield by instantaneous pressure, those plays that are supposed to move the chains wind up stagnating at the LOS as the receiver comes back to the ball to give Russ a target. That's what happened on that play with the well-circulated photo of 3 Packers pursuing Russ as three of our linemen pursued them. The play ended up being a completion to Jimmy, but for no gain. With a normal roll-out to the right, that play moves the chains.

 

[Ozzy]

I don't think its fair to single out Bevell at this point and I've been critical of him as much as anyone. I read multiple accounts from people in the league saying what Seatte did was baffling with the play calls. After last year there is zero excuse for being caught off guard with the line play and then to not make any adjustments in the 2nd half is even dumber. GB was getting killed in the first half and made changes in the 2nd half to get the offense going. I love Pete but this is getting to the point where its odd. I still predict a SB run though.

 

[Seymour]

....And for what you are stating, I have never said Bevell is infallible, as no human being ever is. I've said time and again that he's the best fit for our offense and I believe that wholeheartedly. He brings Pete's vision of spread-offense ball control to life. And whether you want to give credence to that, it certainly is one of the reasons the Hawks have won nearly 70% of their games the past 5 seasons.

Good job, you got your 70% in again. :2thumbs:

You don't have to say he is infallible. You imply it in nearly every post. That is "the core issue" people take with you IMO.

 

[edogg23]

The plays we ran were not the problem -- the pressure and lack of a running game was. For the kind of pressure Russ was getting, about the only thing our receivers could do was pivot a 180 out of their stance before Russ could get a pass off.

You are completely missing the point Siouxhawk.
The packers were under constant pressure the first half. They altered their game plan and scored 17 in the second half. Our staff did nothing to adjust to the pressure. That is a OC issue.

 

[hawk45]

The plays we ran were not the problem -- the pressure and lack of a running game was. For the kind of pressure Russ was getting, about the only thing our receivers could do was pivot a 180 out of their stance before Russ could get a pass off.

But you said it yourself Wilson was under a ton of pressure yet we ran MORE 5-7 deep routes looking for chunk plays which makes absolutely no sense. I'm not even saying its a Bevell thing. I'm honestly starting to think its much deeper than that but to say the plays we ran weren't the problem is an odd statement to make. Literally everyone with a trained eye was shocked after re-watching the tape.

What I don't get about that is last-half 2015 wasn't like this.

It feels like Pete wants to protect the ball on offense and make bones on chunk plays, rather than spreading the risk out more evenly with intermediate-middle throws. Like Pete would rather the INT be way downfield like a punt when a risk is taken.

 

[Siouxhawk]

The plays we ran were not the problem -- the pressure and lack of a running game was. For the kind of pressure Russ was getting, about the only thing our receivers could do was pivot a 180 out of their stance before Russ could get a pass off.

You are completely missing the point Siouxhawk.
The packers were under constant pressure the first half. They altered their game plan and scored 17 in the second half. Our staff did nothing to adjust to the pressure. That is a OC issue.

With 14 of those coming from a gift fumble on the 5 and a broken coverage on a late substitution snafu (don't think Bobby was supposed to be birddogging Jordy 1-on-1). We had one offensive TD likely taken away on a piss-poor no-call by the refs and another go awry when Russ sailed one past a wide-open Lockett.

I do want to see one of those delayed screen passes to a halfback, be it Rawls or Carson -- worked in. Brock Huard detailed our attempt to get Carson a pass on that first series with a rub from Jimmy. Carson didn't get wide enough, though and the pressure choked off that passing lane. Had he ran to the outside like drawn up, a big gainer awaited him. Next time, he makes that work.

 

[JimmyG]

What this still-frame image doesn't show you is that the line of scrimmage on this play was at Seattle's own 32-yard-line. Wilson is on the 14-year-line. Of course your linemen don't create a clean pocket for you when you're 18 years behind the line of scrimmage. The protection was not good on this play, but it looks egregiously bad because Wilson did his patented pivot-spin move and ran backwards for 15 yards. This is where Wilson sometimes gets in trouble, because he's so far behind the line of scrimmage that an off-balance throw might not even make it back to the line of scrimmage (recall that if a thrown-away ball doesn't reach at least the line of scrimmage out of bounds, it's intentional grounding).

Our line sucks but this image is disingenuous.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And what would you suggest he does here?

 

[Seymour]

And what would you suggest he does here?

The answer is simple. Curl up into a ball and get planted at the 25 yard line there at Lambeau. You should re-emerge the following spring. :2thumbs:

BTW...I see what you are saying now. Even that is Russells fault. :|