Cowboys + Refs = Trouble

[volsunghawk]

This "we're just a little team from South Alaska and the NFL doesn't want us in the Big Dance" mentality needs to end. There is no more marketable team in the country right now than the Seattle Seahawks.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

For the love of Paul Allen, will all of you PLEASE stop spreading this nonsense? This isn't 2003.

Do you know what the NFL loves just as much as its "legacy teams?"

Its "brash upstarts." Cocky, punch-you-in-the-mouth newcomers are just as marketable as the old standbys, if not moreso.

We've got the Boy Scout leader, the Guy Everyone Loves to Hate, and the Enigma, and even casual fans know them. More importantly, we're winning. Ergo, the NFL is making bank on the Seahawks and will continue to do so for a long, long time.

All of you claiming otherwise are either just reacting out of habit or haven't been paying attention.

I hate to even bring this up because your post was awesome, but then how is our penalty disparity so enormous when comparing the teams we play? I don't think the NFL wants us to lose, but when you look at the sheer data, something does smell a bit afoul.

We've been among the league leaders in penalties since Carroll got here, and it has ZERO to do with a league conspiracy. It has to do with the fact that the Hawks players are coached to go full speed, all the time. Carroll wants fast, he wants power, he wants physicality. That results in penalties when that speed is exercised a touch early or that power is targeted at the wrong time or in the wrong location or that physicality is too egregious.

He's got players playing right on the edge of what's legal and what isn't, and it is a huge boon to our team. He's willing to take the penalties as a sacrifice for that kind of play.

As for the disparity and teams we face seeming to almost never get penalized, I think you can chalk it up to perspective. The way the Seahawks fly around, they're going to usually make other teams look like they must be playing within the rules for the most part.

 

[StoneCold]

This "we're just a little team from South Alaska and the NFL doesn't want us in the Big Dance" mentality needs to end. There is no more marketable team in the country right now than the Seattle Seahawks.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

For the love of Paul Allen, will all of you PLEASE stop spreading this nonsense? This isn't 2003.

Do you know what the NFL loves just as much as its "legacy teams?"

Its "brash upstarts." Cocky, punch-you-in-the-mouth newcomers are just as marketable as the old standbys, if not moreso.

We've got the Boy Scout leader, the Guy Everyone Loves to Hate, and the Enigma, and even casual fans know them. More importantly, we're winning. Ergo, the NFL is making bank on the Seahawks and will continue to do so for a long, long time.

All of you claiming otherwise are either just reacting out of habit or haven't been paying attention.

Yep. This victim complex, and anyone who perpetuates it, is pathetic.

This topic always dumbfounds me. There are posters that when they talk football sound intelligent. Then I read them in these tin foil threads and I shake my head. Is that the same guy? :34853_doh:

SC

 

[bmorepunk]

I guess some of you guys didn't see all the hacked Sony emails.

They scripted the entire season and completed filming in August.

All the games that people attend are merely holograms.




(Spolier alert: Dallas doesn't make the championship game.)

Some of you guys need to quit worrying about things that may or may not happen in the future. Based on the number of Dallas threads, it's obvious who is in who's head.

Some people are worried about what the officials might do (likely not intentionally, but let's propagate the victim thing here) if Dallas wins this week and in Green Bay. And the Seahawks win their game.

The only thing that matters is who the Seahawks face next week.

 

[Seanhawk]

This "we're just a little team from South Alaska and the NFL doesn't want us in the Big Dance" mentality needs to end. There is no more marketable team in the country right now than the Seattle Seahawks.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

For the love of Paul Allen, will all of you PLEASE stop spreading this nonsense? This isn't 2003.

Do you know what the NFL loves just as much as its "legacy teams?"

Its "brash upstarts." Cocky, punch-you-in-the-mouth newcomers are just as marketable as the old standbys, if not moreso.

We've got the Boy Scout leader, the Guy Everyone Loves to Hate, and the Enigma, and even casual fans know them. More importantly, we're winning. Ergo, the NFL is making bank on the Seahawks and will continue to do so for a long, long time.

All of you claiming otherwise are either just reacting out of habit or haven't been paying attention.

I hate to even bring this up because your post was awesome, but then how is our penalty disparity so enormous when comparing the teams we play? I don't think the NFL wants us to lose, but when you look at the sheer data, something does smell a bit afoul.

But hasn't Pete said his teams were among the most penalized while he was at USC? There's a common thread here and it's not the NFL.

 

[loafoftatupu]

This topic always dumbfounds me. There are posters that when they talk football sound intelligent. Then I read them in these tin foil threads and I shake my head. Is that the same guy? :34853_doh:

SC

There is an obvious level of disparity in officiating. I have calmly watched all of this year's games on the GR program and if someone wanted to, that person could put together proof that in the first half of nearly every game the opponent of the Hawks does not get called for similar play.

Whatever the reasons, whether it be because it looks like the Hawks are just more aggressive or because the NFL is trying to control the blowout factor to keep the ratings up there is an issue. I don't deny the Hawks get penalties, but for the opponent to consistently get the benefit of the doubt is a little disturbing.

That said, the Hawks are good enough to win anyway.

I don't think the NFL is out to screw the Hawks, I think they want to keep people glued to the TV for the first half. Just like not having any prime time home games outside of the opener. The NFL makes a tremendous amount of TV money and football is one of the few broadcasts that people will not wait to see on DVR. The marketing folks know that the viewer will not fast forward past the commercials for the most part and that is a premium in today's television.

The Hawks hosted the "game of the week" more often than anyone this season on FOX, national coverage that competed with CBS. If the Hawks are doing there thing at home, those national viewers are going to switch off, maybe go to the other game or just become uninterested.

Conspiracy? No... control over ratings? Why wouldn't they if they could get away with it? The league can justify nearly every call they make on Seattle, but if they miss a call on the opponent the only fans that will argue it are Seahawks fans. The league knows we will watch so it is win/win.

 

[MidwestHawker]

Conspiracy? No... control over ratings? Why wouldn't they if they could get away with it? The league can justify nearly every call they make on Seattle, but if they miss a call on the opponent the only fans that will argue it are Seahawks fans. The league knows we will watch so it is win/win.

Umm, everything you described after saying "Conspiracy? No..." seems to stem pretty heavily from a conspiracy theory.

 

[StoneCold]

This topic always dumbfounds me. There are posters that when they talk football sound intelligent. Then I read them in these tin foil threads and I shake my head. Is that the same guy? :34853_doh:

SC

blah blah blah...

Conspiracy? No... control over ratings? Why wouldn't they if they could get away with it? The league can justify nearly every call they make on Seattle, but if they miss a call on the opponent the only fans that will argue it are Seahawks fans. The league knows we will watch so it is win/win.

As I've stated before, this is a ludicrous idea. For any of it to be true there has to be a Memo or a word to the Refs, "Keep it close". If that came out the NFL has much more to lose than they would ever gain by keeping some eyeballs on any one particular game. It makes no sense. Saying that since there is a disparity there must be collusion is the worst kind of logic.

SC

 

[Uncle Si]

This topic always dumbfounds me. There are posters that when they talk football sound intelligent. Then I read them in these tin foil threads and I shake my head. Is that the same guy? :34853_doh:

SC

blah blah blah...

Conspiracy? No... control over ratings? Why wouldn't they if they could get away with it? The league can justify nearly every call they make on Seattle, but if they miss a call on the opponent the only fans that will argue it are Seahawks fans. The league knows we will watch so it is win/win.

As I've stated before, this is a ludicrous idea. For any of it to be true there has to be a Memo or a word to the Refs, "Keep it close". If that came out the NFL has much more to lose than they would ever gain by keeping some eyeballs on any one particular game. It makes no sense. Saying that since there is a disparity there must be collusion is the worst kind of logic.

SC

you cannot debate conspiracy theories with logic... dont bother.

 

[loafoftatupu]

As I've stated before, this is a ludicrous idea. For any of it to be true there has to be a Memo or a word to the Refs, "Keep it close". If that came out the NFL has much more to lose than they would ever gain by keeping some eyeballs on any one particular game. It makes no sense. Saying that since there is a disparity there must be collusion is the worst kind of logic.

SC

Ludicrous? Got it.

Been watching football for 40 years and I have seen a great number of questionable things. The NFL is a monster with influence over politicians and media, do you really think that it is that hard for them to coordinate something as simple as weighted officiating?

I'm not claiming that it is a fact that they are doing it, only that it is possible.

The numbers are there, for whatever the reason the Hawks are penalized at a much higher rate than their opponents for THAT WEEK. This is fact.

The league gets revenue from advertising and TV, massive revenue streams. The more viewers tuned in (a metric easily obtained from DTV, Dish and Cable) the greater the flow. This is fact.

The last 10 Super Bowl winners have had on average 3 home games in Prime Time, no less than 2, until this season. Even the Hawks had at least 2 home prime time games in 2013.

Whether the league capitalizes on it or not is the question.

What part of what I said is ludicrous again?

 

[jlwaters1]

I hate to even bring this up because your post was awesome, but then how is our penalty disparity so enormous when comparing the teams we play? I don't think the NFL wants us to lose, but when you look at the sheer data, something does smell a bit afoul.

When roughly 1/3 of your penalties (or more) are pre-snap penalties that are entirely avoidable, I don't think PC has a leg to stand on. All this complaining about a disparity really ignores the obvious point -- Seattle commits way too many "dumb" penalties. Weather false starts, lining up in the neutral zone, or illegal formation. Those are ALL on Seattle and they can't be ignored. IF say we cut those pre-snap issues in half, what would the disparity look like then?

I don't think there's some conspiracy against Seattle. I'm annoyed when I hear people continually bring up SB 40 as the entire reason we lost was on officiating. The fact is Seattle didn't execute when it needed too. Sure the "offensive PI," was ticky tacky, The offsides not called on the Pittsburgh and a holding was called, that sucked too.

But the refs had nothing to do with "fast" Willey Parker gutting us for a 70+ yard TD early in the 3rd QTR. Refs had nothing to do with Hasslebeck throwing the ball too far outside so that D-Jack comes down out of bounds (instead of a huge completion in the 1/2 half.)

 

[Polaris]

When roughly 1/3 of your penalties (or more) are pre-snap penalties that are entirely avoidable, I don't think PC has a leg to stand on. All this complaining about a disparity really ignores the obvious point -- Seattle commits way too many "dumb" penalties. Weather false starts, lining up in the neutral zone, or illegal formation. Those are ALL on Seattle and they can't be ignored. IF say we cut those pre-snap issues in half, what would the disparity look like then?

The disparity would still be there and still be as bad. What you seem unwilling to admit is that what we are talking about has nothing to do with Seattle penalties pre-snap or otherwise. What we are talking about is the fact that all other NFL franchises seem to commit half as many penalties as normal when they play the Seahawks and only when they play the Seahawks. This isn't a conspiracy theory. It's a verified fact.

 

[loafoftatupu]

There is no question that the Hawks commit a great number of pre snap penalties. I would argue that they are actually letting the Hawks play their game for the most part. It is simply just not happening on the other side of the ball and I can even say that the refs do start calling the opponent penalties in the 2nd half.

I don't think it will be the same in the playoffs. I believe that it will balance out for the most part.

 

[MidwestHawker]

What part of what I said is ludicrous again?

The part where the NFL orders "weighted officiating."

 

[MidwestHawker]

In terms of getting the wrong end of the officiating this season...I dunno, it's possible. Unless officiating is really in-your-face bad, I try to just shake it off and ignore it. I can think of three games in just about 25 years as a Hawks fan where I would actually blame the loss on poor officiating ('98 at NYJ, '03 at Baltimore, SB XL). People really shouldn't be so obsessed with the calls unless they're actually, truly the primary reason that a result was what it was. And that's rarely the case.

 

[loafoftatupu]

What part of what I said is ludicrous again?

The part where the NFL orders "weighted officiating."

But my post didn't say that, I said it was possible. Putting someone else's words with my post perhaps?

Melvin does that all the time, it's typical behavior of him in fact. I'm used to it.

 

[Polaris]

In terms of getting the wrong end of the officiating this season...I dunno, it's possible. Unless officiating is really in-your-face bad, I try to just shake it off and ignore it. I can think of three games in just about 25 years as a Hawks fan where I would actually blame the loss on poor officiating ('98 at NYJ, '03 at Baltimore, SB XL). People really shouldn't be so obsessed with the calls unless they're actually, truly the primary reason that a result was what it was. And that's rarely the case.

I don't really disagree, but the other side of the coin is that the NFL (like all honest sporting leagues) has an obligation to insure that the officiating in games is fair. I am not asking for perfection, and indeed mistakes can and do happen, but I do expect that all teams on the whole are officiated pretty much the same....and if that turns out not to be the case, then that should be identified and fixed. What bothers me is I am hearing very little interest on the NFL side to admit that this problem even exists let along trying to solve it.....when the data very clearly shows that the problem (for whatever reason) does in fact exist.

 

[MidwestHawker]

In terms of getting the wrong end of the officiating this season...I dunno, it's possible. Unless officiating is really in-your-face bad, I try to just shake it off and ignore it. I can think of three games in just about 25 years as a Hawks fan where I would actually blame the loss on poor officiating ('98 at NYJ, '03 at Baltimore, SB XL). People really shouldn't be so obsessed with the calls unless they're actually, truly the primary reason that a result was what it was. And that's rarely the case.

I don't really disagree, but the other side of the coin is that the NFL (like all honest sporting leagues) has an obligation to insure that the officiating in games is fair. I am not asking for perfection, and indeed mistakes can and do happen, but I do expect that all teams on the whole are officiated pretty much the same....and if that turns out not to be the case, then that should be identified and fixed. What bothers me is I am hearing very little interest on the NFL side to admit that this problem even exists let along trying to solve it.....when the data very clearly shows that the problem (for whatever reason) does in fact exist.

I'm not sure that data covering only 16 games for one team in one season can actually demonstrate much of any problem. Unlike baseball, football just doesn't reach anything resembling a meaningful sample size during the course of one year. The penalty disparity, as laid out in this thread, isn't evidence of a problem in and of itself...I very much doubt that there is any instruction given to officials to have a similar number of fouls on both teams. They are simply there to call what penalties they see.

 

[Hawks46]

People are saying this like almost all the teams playing us this haven't already gotten the "America's team" treatment in regards to flags. It's one of the worst disparities in the history of the NFL (at least the history they've been keeping track of).

Teams have been getting away with a ton against us all year. This year's Hawks are used to it, and I think it makes them salty and have the "us against them" mentality that they thrive on. I wouldn't be surprised if Pete uncovered this fact, dropped it on the team, and that's what started the defensive turn around (coinciding with the players meetings)...or at least had a factor.

If the calls go against us vs. the Cowboys, or in the SB, they'll be able to handle it. In XL, you could see the absurd calls start to take the heart away from the team. And who could blame them, it was an obvious screw job.

 

[jlwaters1]

When roughly 1/3 of your penalties (or more) are pre-snap penalties that are entirely avoidable, I don't think PC has a leg to stand on. All this complaining about a disparity really ignores the obvious point -- Seattle commits way too many "dumb" penalties. Weather false starts, lining up in the neutral zone, or illegal formation. Those are ALL on Seattle and they can't be ignored. IF say we cut those pre-snap issues in half, what would the disparity look like then?

The disparity would still be there and still be as bad. What you seem unwilling to admit is that what we are talking about has nothing to do with Seattle penalties pre-snap or otherwise. What we are talking about is the fact that all other NFL franchises seem to commit half as many penalties as normal when they play the Seahawks and only when they play the Seahawks. This isn't a conspiracy theory. It's a verified fact.

What are you talking about? Of course Seattle's penalties DO matter to this conversation. We're talking about the disparity between the 2. Seattle vs opponents and penalties called. If we cut the BS penalties in half that would reduce the "disparity". I get what your saying-- though I have not seen actual data stating that our opponents are getting half as many penalties as they average through the other 15 games. (I've just seen the total and average per game, which doesn't really say much)

But your also talking as if the refs are infallible. Meaning that there are a number of penalties that go uncalled on both sides that refs simply don't see. There've been a couple of "sacks" we've gotten the last few years that could easily have been personal fouls that went uncalled.

Where I see the lack of calls the most is our defensive line getting held and in some cases pretty clearly.

I guess I just chalk up some of this disparity too the notion that teams "get up" to play the champs. The players mention it that other teams really want to knock off the champs, so I figure they'll go all out and execute at a high level, only to come crashing down the next week (hence most of them losing the following week.)

It's nice to see as PC pointed out that the last 6 QTRS Seattle has like 3 penalties total. Hopefully that is sign of things to come during the playoffs.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

For those of you that think the Seahawks are the new elite and the new interesting team in the USA here's a tidbit that ought to give you pause. I was listening to the Dan Patrick show this morning and there were a couple of substitute hosts as I'm sure Patrick is on vaca. One of the topics of conversation was "who would you rather see the Patriots or Broncos play in the Super Bowl, the Packers or the Cowboys?" Followed by "Oh the ratings for the Cowboys are just through the roof, especially when they play that 4:00 PM (EST) game". Not even a mention of the defending champion Seattle Seahawks in the entire conversation.

Sure, that's a couple of mediots talking not the NFL. But, I believe if you think the NFL doesn't have the same outlook, you're naïve. The east coast, the casual football fan want the Dullass Cowpatties in the Owl this year and that means so does the NFL. Calls will be made and not made that will favor Dullass, you can count on it. Beating them, whether it be the Lions, Packers or Seahawks, will be a very difficult task. Call me a conspiracy theorist. I don't care.

I do believe the Seahawks could one day be a legacy franchise, but it will take at least 3 Super Bowl wins and likely 4 to get to that status. The Whiners had to win 4 to get to that level and we will too. It's difficult for a west coast team to get to that point and they can lose it without continued success (Raiders).