Does Macdonald keep Geno?

JayhawkMike

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Problem is with a QB out of his depth the rest of the team don't develop just look at teams like the Jets and the Browns in recent years throwing rookie and back-up QB into the starting roll failing for years to get a team capable of a winning record. And a lot of the rookies there were getting were top

Keep Geno, draft a rookie as back-up, give them a year to learn the system and practise with the team and hopefully in 2025 we will have someone able to cope with leading the team. The team will only develop behind a decent QB.
What the F???

a reasonable, well reasoned on-topic response to a comment???

nicely done though I believe a new qb could develop under a cheaper QB. That said we have to consider it will be a new OC and new offensive system so Geno‘s knowledge is considerably discounted.
 

knownone

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Geno's not going anywhere unless a better option becomes available. That seems unlikely to happen this season. So our fan base is probably stuck with the two-time pro bowler who can make every throw, at least for next season. In any case, if I were Miami, I'd be trying to trade for Geno rather than paying Tua.
 

renofox

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Looking at whether to release based on current dead money is a flawed perspective. The 8.5 + 8.5 = 17.0 is money that has already been paid and is going to hit the cap books no matter what. The only difference is whether it all hits in 2024 or is split into '24 and '25. If you need more '24 cap at the cost of '25 cap, you just do restructures to push cap forward. Seahawks are highly experienced at that which is why they're in such a bad cap situation now.

Unfortunately, they do need to make decisions based on upcoming increases to dead money.

Options:

1. Release Geno before his 12.7 salary becomes guaranteed ~2/16. 17.4 dead money all in '24.

2. Trade Geno before his 8.6 roster bonus is due ~3/16. Guaranteed salary transfers to new team. 17.4 dead money in '24, or use 1 of 2 available post-6/1 designations to split 8.7 in '24 and 8.7 in '25. If they plan on also cutting Adams and Lockett the 6/1 designation will need to go there instead, as their acceleration will have greater impact.

3. If still on the roster post-bonus, dead money increases to 17.3 + 8.7 = 26.0 if traded, and 30.0 + 8.7 = 38.7 if released. Neither of these will happen. He will play for the Seahawks in 2024.
 

Titus Pullo

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Designating a player as a post-June 1 cut (which I think can be done with up to two players each season) allows the dead money to be split between two seasons. If Smith is cut and not designated as a post-June 1 cut, then there's $17.4M in dead money on the 2024 cap. If he is designated as a post-June 1 cut, then $8.7M of the dead money falls on the 2024 cap and the remaining $8.7M falls on the 2025 cap.

There is some real savings there, but it's not close to the $8.7M difference that shows up on OverTheCap's web pages. It's a little hard to calculate exactly how much, but it's a lot less. The savings come from an NFL-modified version of the "time value of money." There's the usual "I would gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" time value of money (a dollar you have today is worth more than a dollar you'll receive in a year), and that's increased by the fact that NFL salary caps are still rising, so taking $8.7M of the dead cap and pushing it back to 2025, when the cap is very likely be higher than in 2024, makes those $8.7M hurt just a little less.

Personally, I think the Seahawks' best move is to roll with Smith for 2024 while looking for some other guy who can be good but not great for a well-below-league-average QB cap hit ("the next Smith"), but that could change depending on other moves the Seahawks make. If the Seahawks are going to cut Smith, they'll have to see if there are other players who would save them more by having a chunk of their dead money pushed back a year. I figure Jamal Adams is extremely likely to be so designated. In his case, it comes out to exactly half too, but the numbers are bigger. It's $20,833,334 of dead money if he's cut and not designated as a post-June 1 cut, and it's half that in 2024 and half in 2025 if he is. The $16.5M in 2024 cap savings by designating him as a post-June 1 cut will help a lot. The Seahawks won't need to use a post-June 1 designation on Diggs or Dissly, but I fully expect both of them to be gone (or Dissly possibly renegotiated).

EDITED TO ADD: @renofox is right that this doesn't take into account the fact that Smith's 2024 salary becomes fully guaranteed in February, before the start of the new league year in mid-March, and therefore before Seahawks can use the post-June 1 designation.

The whole "post-June-1" thing is pretty bizarre. I still really dislike the Broncos from the Seahawks' days in the AFC West, so I was loving that the Broncos would have to guarantee Wilson's $37M 2025 salary if he's still on their roster at the end of the fifth day of the league year, which will be St. Patrick's Day. I thought that meant they were going to have to eat the full $85M in dead money in 2024, which would have been devastating for them and delicious for me. But it turns out they can designate him as a post-June 1 cut but simultaneously have him considered not to be on their roster on March 17. Whut?!
Oh well, the $35.4M in dead 2024 cap and $49.6M in dead 2025 cap is pretty nice too. It just seems weird that he'll be in a "Schrödinger's overpaid QB" quantum superposition where he's both still on their roster until after June 1 and not on their roster on March 17.
So, we save money if they designate him as a post-June 1 cut?
 

Titus Pullo

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The new HC and OC will implement an entirely new offense...Everyone will be starting from scratch.

Who learns it faster.... A rookie, Lock, or Geno?

The physical skills between Lock, Geno, and the new drafted QB will all be about even.

Does it even matter?
 

Chukarhawk

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The new HC and OC will implement an entirely new offense...Everyone will be starting from scratch.

Who learns it faster.... A rookie, Lock, or Geno?

The physical skills between Lock, Geno, and the new drafted QB will all be about even.

Does it even matter?
Great point, this will be a whole new system on offense. Start fresh. Geno can make all the throws; his issue is between the ears.
 

Parallax

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Geno's not going anywhere unless a better option becomes available. That seems unlikely to happen this season. So our fan base is probably stuck with the two-time pro bowler who can make every throw, at least for next season. In any case, if I were Miami, I'd be trying to trade for Geno rather than paying Tua.
Were you one of the folks saying Pete's not going anywhere?
 

Parallax

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Great point, this will be a whole new system on offense. Start fresh. Geno can make all the throws; his issue is between the ears.
That's not my assessment of Geno but of Drew. Much better arm. Can scramble for real too. His problems have been between the ears. How I'd love to see Drew get a chance under Grubb. We'll see.
 

Chukarhawk

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That's not my assessment of Geno but of Drew. Much better arm. Can scramble for real too. His problems have been between the ears. How I'd love to see Drew get a chance under Grubb. We'll see.
Drew has some GLARING accuracy issues. So bad that I don't know that he has a future as anything but a back up.
 

Shane Falco

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This is going to be such an interesting off-season. Can't wait to get going. It will be strange if there isn't some big time player changes.
 

olyfan63

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All the things people are dredging up, stuff I'd forgotten about, that are a reflection of Pete Carroll's, in hindsight, overall negative record as a GM...
* All the crappy trades, trading draft capital for veterans who often badly underperformed, and were crap moves from salary cap perspective, Harvin, Adams, etc.
* Carroll even forgot his actual winning model, cheap, running QB, cheap road grader OL, acing draft picks, tons of guys overperforming their contracts
* Overpaying veterans with ridiculous contracts, Wilson, Dissly, Jamal Adams, others
* Generally winding up with a ton of overpaid players relative to the number of players overperforming their contracts'
* Failing to draft and develop any QB besides Mr. Limited

Not intending to take this thread off topic; just that considering the Geno question highlights all the moves that, in hindsight, hamstrung the team. And there's a lot more than I listed. Maybe there's a thread like "Pete's failures as GM, overpaid, underperforming players and cap hell" that discusses some of this.
 

Parallax

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All the things people are dredging up, stuff I'd forgotten about, that are a reflection of Pete Carroll's, in hindsight, overall negative record as a GM...
* All the crappy trades, trading draft capital for veterans who often badly underperformed, and were crap moves from salary cap perspective, Harvin, Adams, etc.
* Carroll even forgot his actual winning model, cheap, running QB, cheap road grader OL, acing draft picks, tons of guys overperforming their contracts
* Overpaying veterans with ridiculous contracts, Wilson, Dissly, Jamal Adams, others
* Generally winding up with a ton of overpaid players relative to the number of players overperforming their contracts'
* Failing to draft and develop any QB besides Mr. Limited

Not intending to take this thread off topic; just that considering the Geno question highlights all the moves that, in hindsight, hamstrung the team. And there's a lot more than I listed. Maybe there's a thread like "Pete's failures as GM, overpaid, underperforming players and cap hell" that discusses some of this.
That's a good summary. Carroll seemed frustratingly risk adverse and he wasn't particularly strategic. He'd overpay a kicker he trusted to be consistent. Nothing wrong with that within reason. Consistency has real value. Pete just overvalued it. It would get particularly crazy when he overpaid just because someone or something was familiar. Bird in the hand and all that. For me, Geno falls into that camp. Yeah, he's not that good. Sometimes he'll over-perform and look great. Other times he'll look like a deer in the headlights and do stupid things. On balance, it averages out to mediocre. Carroll was good with that. Sometimes it seemed he just wanted to stay in that coaches chair and nothing else was particularly important.

He could not out-coach McVey or Shanahan. In fact, those guys coached circles around him. He was a good cheerleader but last year's team needed more discipline and he had zero ability or interest in doing things that way. Seemed he was just biding time. Wanted to come back for another year of mediocrity. I'm not sure why. The LOB years were so awesome and exciting. One would think a guy would have higher expectations of himself and his team.
 

Jegpeg

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Just I thought.
Not saying we should go the cheap QBs in 2024 route but if we do would Tyler Huntley be the best option. FA who should be available at a low price. MacDonald knows what he can do even if it was from trying to stop him in practise. He hasn't done much to date in the NFL but if you want a cheap vet to go alongside a rookie would he be a better option than Lock?
 
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Hawkinaz

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I am expecting the Hawks to not only retain Geno but possibly extend him to lower his cap hit. It will depend on what the new OC thinks of Geno
 

olyfan63

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I am expecting the Hawks to not only retain Geno but possibly extend him to lower his cap hit. It will depend on what the new OC thinks of Geno
A new OC will put Lock (if we re-sign him, which I hope we do) on an even footing in the QB competition. Is there any huge timing consideration why we would extend Geno, rather than just rolling with his existing cap hits, or trade/release him if no offers? Sorry for the multiple implicit questions, it's because I'm confused and trying to sort out pros and cons of different scenarios, and would like to see the Hawks move on from Geno after next year and get a decent QB on a rookie contract, sort of Pete Carroll's 2012-2014 winning model.
 

JayhawkMike

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To me the Geno question cannot be answered until after an OC is hired. I would be happier with the deeper rebuild where he is released. That said, he would easily be a starting QB next year at . . . wait . . . uh . . . not a single other NFL team unless all their QBs are out.
 

Spin Doctor

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I don't know why I keep thinking this. I keep getting a sneaking suspicion that Justin Fields is going to end up here. I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but I feel it's a strong possibility.
 

JayhawkMike

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I don't know why I keep thinking this. I keep getting a sneaking suspicion that Justin Fields is going to end up here. I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but I feel it's a strong possibility.
Or trade for Trey Lance.
 
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