Draft Do-over: Round #2-Jordan Matthews or Paul Richardson

ImTheScientist

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jake206":2zt2t6ct said:
Jordan Matthews:
54 receptions, 84 targets, 686 yards, 7 tds, 6.1 YAC per reception;
6'3'', 33 1/3 arm length, 212 lbs, Hand size: 10 3/8
4.46 40, 35'' vert. jump, 21 reps bench, 120'' broad, 6.95 3 cone

Paul Richardson:
14 receptions, 21 targets, 102 yards, 0 tds, 2.1 YAC per reception;
6'0'', 32 5/8 arm length, 175 lbs, Hand size: 8 7/8
4.40 40, 38 vert. jump, 7.09 3 cone, 124'' broad

Though stats are meaningless, because the offense of the two teams are so different and small sample size. I still think Jordan Matthews body type fits our offense better than Paul Richardson. Seahawks run-dominant offense should value size, and blocking ability rather than pure speed for their WRs. Richardson still scares me, that he'll break like a stick on blocks and his speed seems less a significant factor in this offense.

I find it curious that you list the stats first, then come back and say "Though stats are meaningless". Immediately after that sentence I knew this wasn't coming from an unbiased POV. Its way too early to judge any of this.

Antonio Brown had 16 receptions his rookie year.....would you take him on the hawks now?
 

Recon_Hawk

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Matthews' been a great fit for Philadelphia. He was one of the more NFL ready receivers coming out of college and is a big reason their passing game hasn't taken a hit despite losing Desean Jackson in the offseason.

He's a bigger guy, has solid speed, can run great routes and has good hands. Overall, he wasn't very well liked on .Net's draft board because he doesn't flash a special quality that gives him elite upside. He's very much a jack of all trades, but a master of none type of player, though I think A LOT of NFL coaches would prefer that over a player with a high ceiling but is nowhere near it (think Cordarrelle Patterson). A player and career that I would compare him to is Marques Colston with the Saints who has consistently put up 1000+ 8 TD seasons for the last 8 years yet will never be a "pro-bowl" player.

Personally, I think Matthews has shown to be the better overall receiver between Richardson and him, so far, but I wouldn't trade Richardson for him if given the chance because Norwood is a player who can become exactly what Matthew is showing now: A dependable, big target possession receiver who operates best out of the slot, over the middle of the field, where Richardson is an outside threat.

IMO, the combination of Richardson and Norwood is better than Matthews and Norwood.
 

Basis4day

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Any WR out there is going to look different and not have the same numbers in a different scheme.
 

MysterMatt

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He hasn't made a huge splash, but I really do like Richardson and think he has plenty of room to grow into a solid NFL receiver. I love his speed, he's a willing blocker and special teamer, and I think his routes, as Kearly pointed out, show polish already. If he can become more of a deep threat (and I "blame") Bevell for some of this at least for not giving him more opportunities, then I think he'll pan out quite nicely.

Fingers crossed. I wasn't in love with the pick but its growing on me.

BUT, since we're talking about draft do-overs, I want the picks we gave up for Harvin. A number of us have pointed this out already, although none so eloquently as me, but the Harvin trade is having a ripple effect that we'll feel for a few years. Hindsight is 20/20, but damn...I can think of quite a few players we passed on who'd make a very welcome impact right now.
 

ManBunts

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I think Richardson's lack of production is more a knock on our ability to throw the ball (therefore the stability of our O-line) than his skillset. I love his downfield blocking and speed.

I think if Mathews wasn't playing with a guy like Maclin to take the pressure off, he'd see tighter coverage and those numbers would be lower.
 

Missing_Clink

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I would have picked Matthews over Richardson in a heart beat and I wish the Hawks had. I'm not surprised at all given this regime's consistent mismanagement of the WR position over the years, that in the best WR draft of the last 10 years, they managed to take TWO WRs that look entirely mediocre at best. So many other rookie WRs are killing it.

The front office has shown good ability to identify and draft talent at pretty much every other position, but I have no confidence in their ability to manage the WR position.
 

BlueBlood

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His size alone makes him the better pick. I still think Richardson will be great in this league and in a different offense would most likely have already been a considerable immediate impact. I think one thing about Richardson is his route running leaves a lot to be desired not unlike Tate when he first came in. Although, there is some serious upside in Richardson and I believe one thing that doesnt reflect in the stat sheet for him but helps the offense is the fact that he pulls the defender away from line of scrimmage and when the pocket collapses that opens up some serious running lanes for Wilson when. There is more than one way to skin a niner, cardinal, bronco, eagle.
 

Chukarhawk

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They shoulda taken De andre Hopkins the year before instead of pussy harvin like I told them to.
 

dumbrabbit

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This is a run-first team. Why should the front office value WR's more highly than the RB position? Just get WR's who can get the job done.
 

HawkWow

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I think one thing that seems to be consistently overlooked in the Richardson pick comes down to the concept that was Percy Harvin. IF you believe scuttlebutt (in this example I do) Harvin instantly alienated Pete and the FO by electing to have the surgery. There are some that believe Harvin, before ever taking a snap, was already trade bait. This is very easy to believe and understand, actually. Think back to Pete's many comments on both the surgery and Harvin himself. Remember what it took to get Harvin back on the field after his brief, self-centered Viking appearance. Harvin was egg on the face of this org. Rightfully so.

Prior to that, you have to know the mad professor that is Pete spent many hrs with Bevell starting minutes after Harvin was signed. It also appears they wanted to move away from Marshawn, so they brainstormed plays that would feature Harvin and reduce the need for Lynch. Then *&*^%&^ Harvin found a surgeon to say he needed the hip NOW. The majority of the year, Bevell had a playbook designed for Harvin but no Harvin. To make matters worse, Michael sucked and Lynch snickered.

I believe Paul Richardson was the closest thing to Percy Harvin in the draft. We all know Pete likes big, strong WRs. We didn't target that in the draft. We targeted a guy that could play Percy Harvin (even though we seem to have gotten away from that too).

I will say that Richardson, at this time, barely resembles the Paul Richardson of Colorado. He was a man among boys but now a boy among men. Him not flashing this year is not abnormal or unusual. The good news is we know what he is capable of based on his college play. If we are again having this discussion in 2016, only then can we be sure Richardson was a bad pick, imo.
 

pehawk

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HawkWow":37uauyww said:
I think one thing that seems to be consistently overlooked in the Richardson pick comes down to the concept that was Percy Harvin. IF you believe scuttlebutt (in this example I do) Harvin instantly alienated Pete and the FO by electing to have the surgery. There are some that believe Harvin, before ever taking a snap, was already trade bait. This is very easy to believe and understand, actually. Think back to Pete's many comments on both the surgery and Harvin himself. Remember what it took to get Harvin back on the field after his brief, self-centered Viking appearance. Harvin was egg on the face of this org. Rightfully so.

Prior to that, you have to know the mad professor that is Pete spent many hrs with Bevell starting minutes after Harvin was signed. It also appears they wanted to move away from Marshawn, so they brainstormed plays that would feature Harvin and reduce the need for Lynch. Then *&*^%&^ Harvin found a surgeon to say he needed the hip NOW. The majority of the year, Bevell had a playbook designed for Harvin but no Harvin. To make matters worse, Michael sucked and Lynch snickered.

I believe Paul Richardson was the closest thing to Percy Harvin in the draft. We all know Pete likes big, strong WRs. We didn't target that in the draft. We targeted a guy that could play Percy Harvin (even though we seem to have gotten away from that too).

I will say that Richardson, at this time, barely resembles the Paul Richardson of Colorado. He was a man among boys but now a boy among men. Him not flashing this year is not abnormal or unusual. The good news is we know what he is capable of based on his college play. If we are again having this discussion in 2016, only then can we be sure Richardson was a bad pick, imo.

+1...brilliant and spot-on.

ALL the Hawks picks can be dotted line to a player already on the roster.

Didn't we learn from Tate that Pete's really, REALLY hard on rook WR's? Pete essentially redshirted Tate to prove a point. He's doing the same for Prich.
 

endzorn

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I'm going to trust Kearly on this because the information and numbers we have tell us absolutely nothing at this point. Richardson could be a superstar or a scrub, but a combination of being a rookie and playing with an offense more concerned with pulling your shirt over your head and goalie punching you than passing makes it so hard to tell.
 

HawkWow

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pehawk":1zsmdg9m said:
HawkWow":1zsmdg9m said:
I think one thing that seems to be consistently overlooked in the Richardson pick comes down to the concept that was Percy Harvin. IF you believe scuttlebutt (in this example I do) Harvin instantly alienated Pete and the FO by electing to have the surgery. There are some that believe Harvin, before ever taking a snap, was already trade bait. This is very easy to believe and understand, actually. Think back to Pete's many comments on both the surgery and Harvin himself. Remember what it took to get Harvin back on the field after his brief, self-centered Viking appearance. Harvin was egg on the face of this org. Rightfully so.

Prior to that, you have to know the mad professor that is Pete spent many hrs with Bevell starting minutes after Harvin was signed. It also appears they wanted to move away from Marshawn, so they brainstormed plays that would feature Harvin and reduce the need for Lynch. Then *&*^%&^ Harvin found a surgeon to say he needed the hip NOW. The majority of the year, Bevell had a playbook designed for Harvin but no Harvin. To make matters worse, Michael sucked and Lynch snickered.

I believe Paul Richardson was the closest thing to Percy Harvin in the draft. We all know Pete likes big, strong WRs. We didn't target that in the draft. We targeted a guy that could play Percy Harvin (even though we seem to have gotten away from that too).

I will say that Richardson, at this time, barely resembles the Paul Richardson of Colorado. He was a man among boys but now a boy among men. Him not flashing this year is not abnormal or unusual. The good news is we know what he is capable of based on his college play. If we are again having this discussion in 2016, only then can we be sure Richardson was a bad pick, imo.

+1...brilliant and spot-on.

ALL the Hawks picks can be dotted line to a player already on the roster.

Didn't we learn from Tate that Pete's really, REALLY hard on rook WR's? Pete essentially redshirted Tate to prove a point. He's doing the same for Prich.

Thanks for the props mi amigo. I also agree with your concept of red shirting and how unforgiving Pete can be with drops, poor route running, etc. I think there's as many receivers in this upcoming draft hoping to not be picked by this team as there are those that hope to be picked by this team. Getting stud FAs just may be out of the question.

Speaking of:

Bryant's flare up last night was something of a double edged sword to me. It is pretty clear he is not happy in Dallas. The kind of unhappiness that money can't compensate for and Dallas likely won't even try (at this point). But as bad as I'd like Dez, his actions last night left me with questions that I thought were already answered. Now I don't know. He better get some of whatever Marshall was prescribed. I've not read anything about what sparked those emotions, but if a player is that displeased while getting a win...again, I don't know. But he is getting cheaper. ; )
 

Chukarhawk

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ImTheScientist":x3ma825y said:
I wish we could keep threads and not have them deleted later.

word. it would be fun to go back and see what a genius I am. :D
 

justafan

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Mathews was better in college, he is better now and I think he will be better his whole career.
I believe mathews would have more receptions and targets here than they have given PR due to the fact he was more pro ready, it was well known his work ethic was second to none in the class of WRs that got drafted.
 

CalgaryHawk

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Great insight and comments by many of the posters on this thread.

I think another factor is that Richardson has gotten open during some games, but so far Wilson hasn't developed enough trust in him to either pull the trigger or look his way when he's been open. I think once Wilson develops more trust in him, Richardsons catches will go up. Unfortunately, this might not be until next year because as a few previous commenters have pointed out, Richardson may not have gotten enough starting reps in training camp (plays similar position as Harvin).

Unfortunately, we will have to be patient for another year or two before we know if this was a solid draft pick.
 

olyfan63

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HawkWow":1lngv4e0 said:
I think one thing that seems to be consistently overlooked in the Richardson pick comes down to the concept that was Percy Harvin. IF you believe scuttlebutt (in this example I do) Harvin instantly alienated Pete and the FO by electing to have the surgery. There are some that believe Harvin, before ever taking a snap, was already trade bait. This is very easy to believe and understand, actually. Think back to Pete's many comments on both the surgery and Harvin himself. Remember what it took to get Harvin back on the field after his brief, self-centered Viking appearance. Harvin was egg on the face of this org. Rightfully so.
<snip>
Prior to that, you have to know the mad professor that is Pete spent many hrs with Bevell starting minutes after Harvin was signed. It also appears they wanted to move away from Marshawn, so they brainstormed plays that would feature Harvin and reduce the need for Lynch. Then *&*^%&^ Harvin found a surgeon to say he needed the hip NOW. The majority of the year, Bevell had a playbook designed for Harvin but no Harvin. To make matters worse, Michael sucked and Lynch snickered.

What a great post, relative to the Harvin info. I have come to believe that Percy Harvin checks box after box for the mental health issue, "Borderline Personality Disorder" (BPD), including the petulant toddler rage part of it, and the "it's everybody else who's the problem, I'm the normal one" part of it. The toddler rage shows up in publicized incidents with his coaches over the years, and we've seen the "it's everyone else who's the problem" up close and personal this year. Harvin's flavor of BPD also appears to include a large helping of Antisocial Personality Disorder, i.e., having no real conscience or empathy for others, when it interferes with their own goals.

I recall Pete questioning Harvin's surgeries, and thought at the time, it seemed odd for a coach to say those things. Your account makes absolute sense, particularly in the context of a Harvin with BPD. Some of the things Borderlines do, are 1) a BPD will rearrange facts, data, and sequences of events in their head, "to match their emotions"*, and 2) they also make others responsible for whatever (negative) emotions the BPD feels, and then the BPD uses those emotions as justification for actions the BPD takes that harm others.

In Percy's case, following the BPD playbook, (and they DO have a playbook, little tried-and-true mini-scams they run on others again and again throughout their lives), and here's how it might play out in Percy's head. After he got signed by Seattle, and since he felt like he'd rather not take more hits, and just get paid, for all his past unmatched brilliance (BPDs are like peas in a pod with Narcissists), he invented a feeling that his hip was just not right, and rearranged things in his head to match those emotions, and pursued this until he found (paid?) a specialist to say what he wanted, that his hip was 93% instead of 100%, and that surgery to get the hip to 97% was an urgent imperative. (I'm making these numbers up, of course).

Percy no doubt felt butthurt by the things Pete said about his absence for surgery, which justified him malingering and milking the rehab from whatever surgery it was that he had, as petulant retribution.

But of course, coming back for the Vikings game was an emotional must, to show those evil people how awful and wrong they were for not just betting the farm on Percy and his magnificence. When BPDs emotionally "want" to do something, they arrange facts and data to support their chosen course of action.

It's really quite twisted and sick, and hard for normal people to believe others think and behave this way. BPDs know this, and are very clever, and go to great lengths to conceal their illness from people around them. Their true colors typically show when they are in a position of power.

I'm sure you're right that Pete started to figure it out over the surgery issue, and started to hedge his bets then, although I don't think he realized the depth of the problem and how difficult (impossible) it would be to "fix" such an individual, especially when the BPD is sure they are fine and it's everyone else who is the problem.

BTW, Brandon Marshall of the Chicago Bears is the only publicly acknowledged BPD in the league. But the mere fact of publicly acknowledging it and seeking help puts him several leagues above Percy.

So, Harvin will go to the new team (Jets) and behave for a time, to try to make it look like he was (is) fine all along, and the problem was in the organization he came from. (It's a part of the BPD playbook) I suspect the Jets organization was fully briefed by the Seattle organization about the exact nature of Percy's problems (hence the 6th round pick), and the Jets probably have a plan in place. I don't see any way Percy can be successful after this season unless he either goes the Brandon Marshall route of "outing" himself, or the Jets (or other organization) have him under a contract that has strict and specific accountability provisions that address his clear mental illness issues. My belief that Percy has BPD + APD is a hypothesis; the specifics for him may be different, but the BPD + APD model successfully explains his history and recent behavior. As they say, all models are wrong, but some are useful. There are BPDs who do not seem to feature the APD like Percy does; those BPDs are often "cutters" (self-mutilation) in private. Those with BPD+APD, like the model that fits Percy, tend to do things that are directed outward, AT others, and often do significant harm. Things like, in a fit of rage, grabbing position coaches by the neck and throwing them to the ground, or punching teammates in the face the night before a big game;

* This ability to rearrange facts in their head to match their emotions makes BPDs extremely convincing liars, to the unaware. They can lie with 100% nonverbal congruence with their lies, including tears on cue. They literally make themselves come to believe their own lies. It's deadly if you are on the other side of it in a court setting, e.g., divorce court.
 

VancitySeahawk

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It is too early but I havent been impressed with Paul Richardson so far. Seems like another Deon Butler if you ask me.

It hurts even more because the 2014 draft might go down as the best WR draft of all time.
 

olyfan63

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VancitySeahawk":1flvk0ph said:
It is too early but I havent been impressed with Paul Richardson so far. Seems like another Deon Butler if you ask me.

It hurts even more because the 2014 draft might go down as the best WR draft of all time.

Deon Butler... now that's a painful thought!
He hung around for a couple three years and was from the previous regime. Richardson is Carroll's choice.
I still have high hopes. It is hard watching receivers taken below him excel.

I think Richardson could wind up being be like John Brown from AZ, Wait a minute, the Cards took John Brown in the 3rd round! After Richardson!

Let's give PRich a bit longer. We did hear lots of great reports out of training camp. Recall we heard that too from Golden Tate. Seattle seems to be harder for Rookie WR's to break in, for some reason. Doug Baldwin was the last rookie WR to really come in and play and excel as a rookie.

Also, keep in mind, PRich may be having an impact we don't see... his speed occupying safeties and stretching the defense for the run game. Hey, worth a mention, whether currently true or not. It would be interesting to ask Pete or Bevell this question.
 
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