Fire Pete

[semiahmoo]

Dumb

It’s a transition year after losing a lot of talent due to injury and contract.

Its not dumb. Look at what McVay did for the Rams vs Fisher. In the NFL you can win with talent...but scheme is just as important. We currently have neither. Yes we are 2-2 but this team isn't making the playoffs. I saw the same thing in this forum during Holmgren's final years. People are holding onto the past....I get it....FANatics. If you objectively look at things its obvious Pete is holding us back offensively due to philosophy. Since that won't change he needs to go.

If we hope to return to the SB in the coming years it will be w/o Pete.

The game has passed him by.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

As much as I've loved having him as a coach, I'm getting tired of his time management and the getting cute and trying pass plays when the run is clearly working. I realize the OC is much to blame, and he deserves, it but Pete has final say on all of it.

 

[NJlargent]

In the next 3 years, if we keep Pete -

what is the upside?

What is the downside?



Now do the reverse of this exercise using the scenario where we remove Pete and install a difference HC?

The issue I have is that I think Wilson is actually a QB that could be elite in the right system and with some decent OL play. But he does not have many years left and if you are going to make another SB run, you need to bring in someone else. We cannot afford more years of below average drafts (Penny is a bust btw) and continuous decline.

I think the next few games will shed some light on whether PC is building another SB team or whether there is no downside to firing him.

 

[mrt144]

As much as I've loved having him as a coach, I'm getting tired of his time management and the getting cute and trying pass plays when the run is clearly working. I realize the OC is much to blame, and he deserves, it but Pete has final say on all of it.

And he was hand selected before other OCs were even available - this is what Pete wanted to some extent.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

As much as I've loved having him as a coach, I'm getting tired of his time management and the getting cute and trying pass plays when the run is clearly working. I realize the OC is much to blame, and he deserves, it but Pete has final say on all of it.

And he was hand selected before other OCs were even available - this is what Pete wanted to some extent.

Let's be clear, Schottenheimer was hand picked because like Bevell he's a yes man that is cool with his head coach overriding and meddling with his playcalling and installing an antiquated ball control scheme...............when any other young dynamic up an coming available coordinator would not be OK with this job situation.

DeFelippo was another top rumored name with connections to the Hawks, but he chose the Eagles because Peterson is a forward thinking head coach that wanted a dynamic pass oriented style of offense for his dynamic young QB to thrive in.

But Pete would never hire a coordinator like DeFelippo, because it goes against his core ball control and play physical on both sides of the ball philosophy.

 

[Uncle Si]

DeFelippo is with the Vikings.

And I agree with you about PC

 

[Sgt. Largent]

DeFelippo is with the Vikings.

And I agree with you about PC

Yep, my bad........but my reasoning for why he didn't come here holds true. Great dynamic coordinators want an opportunity for not only full control of playcalling, but they want to shine so they can get a HC job.

That ain't here.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Troy Aikman was talking about how important stopping the pass and passing the ball is to winning in the NFL (goto 5 Min mark)

Pete never got the memo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb9HjFYm5l0

"We still have coaches that say we are going to run the ball and stop the run.......that game's been changed a long time ago....if you can't play pass defense and you cannot throw the ball in this league, you are just simply not going to win"

We hired a run first coordinator for a coach that wants a run first offense in a league doing everything to improve the effectiveness of the passing game while neutering the defense. Meanwhile, we have one of the better QBs in the league but under Carroll he has been steadily producing less in terms of results.

Is the QB regressing? Or is this antiquated, awful offense brought to you by an antiquated washed up HC hiring a washed up and ineffective OC (after firing another washed up ineffective OC) the reason?

If Wilson can be good or even great, we have to take that chance. And for 3 years Pete has proven that he cannot make Wilson better, he is actually making him worse. Given the importance of Wilson to this team, you either need to bet on Wilson or bet on Carroll.

Betting on Wilson may not pan out, but it might and that payoff has to be worth the risk. Because if Wilson cannot be great for us we won't have a future anyway.

 

[Donn2390]

Those that have given up on Pete and are calling for his head would be classified as "Clueless know it all's".
They will be leading the "We love Pete" parade when things turn around.
There is an old expression, "If winning was easy, everyone would be doing it!"

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Those that have given up on Pete and are calling for his head would be classified as "Clueless know it all's".
They will be leading the "We love Pete" parade when things turn around.
There is an old expression, "If winning was easy, everyone would be doing it!"

I haven't given up, but time's running out.

Do you honestly think Pete and John can rebuild another #1 rated defense in order for this style of plain vanilla ball control offense to get to another SB?

All with an aging Russell about to want to get paid again next year. Hell if I was Russell I might not want to sign another extension here if Pete's still my HC under utilizing me.

 

[mrt144]

Those that have given up on Pete and are calling for his head would be classified as "Clueless know it all's".
They will be leading the "We love Pete" parade when things turn around.
There is an old expression, "If winning was easy, everyone would be doing it!"

I haven't given up, but time's running out.

Do you honestly think Pete and John can rebuild another #1 rated defense in order for this style of plain vanilla ball control offense to get to another SB?

All with an aging Russell about to want to get paid again next year. Hell if I was Russell I might not want to sign another extension here if Pete's still my HC under utilizing me.

If it takes 2 to 3 years to get back 'there' then time is not on anyone's side here. To get the amount of draft capital to take as many shots at the future as possible would preclude that timetable and induce FNG risk. To jettison the one trade chip we have in Wilson would probably make things worse before better and not keep us on that timetable. Pete could just up and retire due to a medical event (morbid, I know).

Fresh blood is what I crave!

 

[Mad Dog]

MadDog - I get your point. I watched football in the Flores era too (as a kid but I still suffered through it)

Except Pete will be gone in 3 years regardless.

The team will not be great in 3 years.

So why keep him?

He has shown he cannot be offense first when your best player is Wilson.

If we keep him we have to make a 30M commitment to Wilson while hoping he can work with the next HC. That makes no sense.

Figure out if Wilson can be good with another coach, because you are getting another coach regardless.

BTW Carroll has not been a 'good' coach for 5 years. He has underperformed with the talent he has had for half a decade. So the recipe for a 'good' coach and franchise QB isn't applicable. He was good, with 4 HOF players on an all-time defense. But not since.

This is always the question. Was the team good because the talent was great or the talent was average but they were coached to excellence?
We are either the greatest drafting team of all time or the greatest player developers of all time given what we built here.

I'm inclined to believe that Pete is still a good coach because he does develop players skills and does have the team always playing hard for him. I watched so many Erickson and Holmgren teams just lay down when things got tough. Only seen that once from a Carroll team in last year's Rams game. And Pete knew it and cleaned house. This year the teams played their hearts out on D and kept us in games. The OL and run game is producing and only the passing game is remedial right now.

Is Pete a great game day coach? Not really. But he's a great coach as far as motivation and teaching and that's a valuable commodity in a league where you need to rely on young guys.

We'll be SB contenders next year. Book it.

 

[chris98251]

Well the situation we have here is different then most, John works for Pete, if Pete gets fired does John also go, now you may have a New GM and Head Coach, most GM's and New Coaches want their guys, say Good Bye to Wilson, price tag is high, does not fit the measurables, may not fit the offensive vision of the new guy.

Just food for thought on be careful what you wish for.

You might just get it.

 

[AubHawk71]

Get a grip dude. Pete isn't perfect, but your emotions are literally comparable to leaving your wife because you think the grass is greener on the other side. Then you discover your ex-wife has a lot of qualities your current wife doesn't. I for one like stability. If I was running the Seahawks the last thing I'd listen to is a rabid fan base

I hated the 3rd and 1 call. But I've watched football religiously to know that even Andy Reid, Belicheck, etc. have made similar mistakes. Everyone wants a Sean McVay or a Kyle Shanahan but neither of them have won a superbowl

No you got it wrong its like being with a wife u can't stand becaue its all you know.

Yep, or being in an abusive relationship. Oh, but we had so many good times, and now and then it's fun, but...lately it's rarely been fun.

Games are supposed to be fun, right? Watching the first half of a Hawks game is nothing like that.

 

[Mad Dog]

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Its funny how humans always fall into the same emotional pitfalls.

When Pete was new and shiny, he was the greatest thing. Bringing in a tough defense. Clawing out close wins with a crappy offense but a lot of grit. Getting it all right with drafts so he could get us to two superbowls with essentially the same approach of tough defense, balanced conservative offense.

Now the shine has faded off this old penny. The Lombardi is a distant memory and that mantra of tough defense and balanced ceonservative offense is "old fashioned". The game has past the old coach by. There's a few shiny pennies out there calling us to potentially greater things and we fall for it hook line and sinker.

Is there really a logical basis to the theory of dumping an old successful coach and getting a new successful coach as being likely to succeed. Or is it merely fans following standard behavioral tropes and wishful thinking.

 

[mrt144]

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Its funny how humans always fall into the same emotional pitfalls.

When Pete was new and shiny, he was the greatest thing. Bringing in a tough defense. Clawing out close wins with a crappy offense but a lot of grit. Getting it all right with drafts so he could get us to two superbowls with essentially the same approach of tough defense, balanced conservative offense.

Now the shine has faded off this old penny. The Lombardi is a distant memory and that mantra of tough defense and balanced ceonservative offense is "old fashioned". The game has past the old coach by. There's a few shiny pennies out there calling us to potentially greater things and we fall for it hook line and sinker.

Is there really a logical basis to the theory of dumping an old successful coach and getting a new successful coach as being likely to succeed. Or is it merely fans following standard behavioral tropes and wishful thinking.

My Ohio State fandom tells me yes, there is a logical basis

 

[Spin Doctor]

Pete's time has come and gone. I'm thankful for what Pete has brought us, he created a juggernaut like none other that we've ever seen here in Seattle. He created a historically good team that will forever be talked about. His 2013 team was this generations 1985 Bears. These were the best of times, but nothing gold stays forever. Seahawk fans are desperately clinging to the past glory with Pete, unaware what is transpiring before them. The game has past Pete by, time has left the Seahawks, and Pete Carroll clinging to a past that will never be resurrected by Pete Carroll.

When Pete Carroll came into the Seahawks he had several things working for him. The first of which is he had a system that utilized players that others did not value. This allowed Carroll to get good value on players such as Richard Sherman, Browner, and Kam Chancellor. Nobody was looking at the big corners, and LB/S tweeners such as Chancellor. They were considered fringe NFL players. Carroll's system was able to take full advantage of these types of players. He used a tweaked version of cover 2 and 4-3 under that utilized a lot of press and a uniquely talented safety to make sure plays didn't get behind the defense. This is how he was able to get max value on many of his draft picks, and turn guys who were considered too big/stiff to play corner into stars.

Unfortunately, with success comes others who look to emulated that success. Teams started taking big corners and utilizing the same concepts that made the Seahawks so great. Former defensive coordinators and assistants got poached by other teams and they implemented the same defense. This means the player pool for our potential defensive players got much smaller. It became much harder to get good depth, and find the value that defined the Pete Carroll era. Our QB that was making 750k suddenly came up for a second contract. Furthermore teams learned how to counter this defense.

In many ways Pete Carroll is facing many of the same problems that the 85 Bears faced after their success. The 46 defense was not widely used before the 85 Bears, teams either emulated or learned how to work around it. Talent got poached, and that team died a long, slow protracted death. Ditka started to lose the locker room, and the team suffered slow decline. Carroll is in this same position.

The core tenants that gave Carroll the edge have been replicated, or exploited. On the offensive side of the ball he also faces some of the same issues. Teams have figured out Russell Wilson's patterns which set up the deep pass that Carroll so coveted. He continues to run an antiquated offense that has long since been left behind. More often than not it seems we stumble into victory than actually capture it. Poor usage of timeouts, and offensive mishaps/mistakes seem to plague the Seahawks. Time management is horrible and the situational play-calling is appalling to say the least. Coaching mishaps have cost the Seahawks two games we could have won.

So the question remains: does Pete Carroll's coaching actually elevate the Seahawks, make us better? I think the answer is clear, no it doesn't. In the NFL coaches must constantly evolve, and adapt, and Carroll has failed to do so, time has left him behind. He clings to old ideas, and approaches every game the same way. His defense is still decent but his offense is a shackle that is pushing this team down to obscurity. His refusal to recognize this will end up costing him his job. Especially if Wilson does get that 30 million dollar contract and he still keeps doing the same thing.

I'm happy for what Carroll has brought us, but I can no longer say he is actually elevating the team. Things could be worse than Carroll, but with Carroll I think we are going to stuck with a team that hovers around 7-9 each season, plus or minus a few wins -- essentially Jeff Fisher territory. I think he could have more success if he gives up all control of offensive play calling, and planning, but that won't happen.

 

[ExBassGuide]

In Pete I Trust!

 

[Spin Doctor]

In Pete I Trust!

You're going to be very disappointed.

 

[adeltaY]

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Its funny how humans always fall into the same emotional pitfalls.

When Pete was new and shiny, he was the greatest thing. Bringing in a tough defense. Clawing out close wins with a crappy offense but a lot of grit. Getting it all right with drafts so he could get us to two superbowls with essentially the same approach of tough defense, balanced conservative offense.

Now the shine has faded off this old penny. The Lombardi is a distant memory and that mantra of tough defense and balanced ceonservative offense is "old fashioned". The game has past the old coach by. There's a few shiny pennies out there calling us to potentially greater things and we fall for it hook line and sinker.

Is there really a logical basis to the theory of dumping an old successful coach and getting a new successful coach as being likely to succeed. Or is it merely fans following standard behavioral tropes and wishful thinking.

Except there is mounting statistical evidence that Pete's style of offense is suboptimal. It's not coming out of nowhere.

I don't even want Pete gone, I just want him to hire a forward thinking OC while he sticks to defense. If he won't do it, then it's time to consider getting rid of him.