How is 54-51 even football anymore?

[Seahawkfan80]

This thread is very funny.

Well, at least this thread can entertain you this year, even if your team can't. :mrgreen:

Personally, I turned that game off in the 4th quarter. It wasn't entertaining, it was painful to watch the No-D NFL and the All-"Star" refs. It was like watching a boxing match where neither guy blocks a single punch, just stands there looking stupid with his hands down then punches the other one who's doing the same.

[youtube]eYVTRBTbhhs[/youtube]

 

[Jville]

If only tipped passes were tracked and reported as an official stat. Last night might have been a single game NFL record. But then again, stats remain an incomplete description of the game as well as team and individual play.

 

[Popeyejones]

This thread is very funny.

Personally, I turned that game off in the 4th quarter. It wasn't entertaining, it was painful to watch the No-D NFL and the All-"Star" refs. It was like watching a boxing match where neither guy blocks a single punch, just stands there looking stupid with his hands down then punches the other one who's doing the same.

That the story of this game is bad defenses is just insane to me.

Was this a game in which two historically bad defenses were going up against each other, or a game in which two historically good offenses were going up against each other?

The answer is absolutely obvious.

Yeah, so far this year the Chiefs have the 25th ranked defense (just barely in the bottom quarter of the league) and the Rams have the 20th ranked defense, but that's really not that remarkable. These are garden variety not very good defenses.

On the other hand, you have two of the most explosive and innovative offenses in the history of the NFL trading punches against each other.

That's the context.

People take that context of two ridiculously innovative and historically effective NFL offenses going head-to-head and use it to bellyache about below average defenses and conspiracy theories about officiating?

Sorry, that's just crazy to me.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

It was fun to watch. One of the best games ever? no way

 

[Mad Dog]

Is it innovative offence or have the rules just so neutered defenses that anyone with speedy wideouts and a good RB can fill Zones with crossing routes and no repercussions.

If your OL can hold up enough to give time for a crossing route to develop, it seems you can have a high scoring offence.

Anyways, I hope you are right in that it was just a case of historically good offences and mediocre defenses playing each other. But I also thought last years SB was terrible with both teams seemingly playing against air. It's not really my type of football and watching Good Morning NFL creaming themselves over this game and calling me a dinosaur for liking more traditional football really irked me.

 

[Popeyejones]

Is it innovative offence or have the rules just so neutered defenses that anyone with speedy wideouts and a good RB can fill Zones with crossing routes and no repercussions.

Absolutely, and disguising pattern matching in different zone shells is the way you stop this.

Well, that and really neutering all the pick plays that make crossing routes run these days.

I don't think the NFL would ever do it, but if I ran the world I'd eliminate pick plays from the game entirely.

If you want to win in the passing game you should out scheme somebody or be able to beat them in one on one matchups in man coverage. Pick plays are about neither of those things, and are just cheese, IMO. Every time I see an offense win on one of them (which is all the time) I get annoyed.

 

[JGfromtheNW]

The worst part is you know the league and league execs were head-over-heels for the product that was on display last night and will continue to handcuff defenses to produce these types of results.

 

[Popeyejones]

The worst part is you know the league and league execs were head-over-heels for the product that was on display last night and will continue to handcuff defenses to produce these types of results.

It's not defenses being handcuffed though. It's defenses needing to catch up.

It took defenses a long time to catch up to the West Coast offense, but they did. A ton of WCO passing concepts are still in the game, but the scheme hasn't been the cheat code that it was for decades now.

Same deal (on a smaller scale) with the wildcat, or the read option, or even Chip Kelly's beta version of what the Chiefs are doing.

It's funny in that these NFL offenses are basically stealing from high school and college offenses. And the way to combat it is to steal from high school and college defenses, which NFL teams haven't done yet.

Now, is Wade Phillips going to be the person to do that? I'm not too sure. But it's coming.

 

[mrt144]

Am I the only one on this planet that thinks a 105 points in a football game is an abomination? Is there where we want this game to go?

I grew up watching CFL and with the wider field and 2 downs. Games looked a lot like this kind of thing. Pass happy score heavy league with pretty crappy defense.

When NFL and cable TV came to Canada I quickly fell in love with the NFL version of the NFL. Tough defenses ruled the day. RB's were the stars. WR's feared the middle where only the strong survived. It was a warrior game.

It's not the game I loved in my teens and 20's.

At least some teams like the Seahawks are trying to bring balance to the force before we all descend into the dark abyss of spread football and college basketball scores. How long that will last I don't know but I'm becoming less of a fan of this up and down the field seemingly at will due to handcuffed defenses that can't knock your block off for daring to run through the mifddle of a zone defense.

/rant

What a great opportunity to figure out how you can reconcile inevitable change with your short existence on this planet! You can lick this!

 

[mrt144]

The worst part is you know the league and league execs were head-over-heels for the product that was on display last night and will continue to handcuff defenses to produce these types of results.

It's not defenses being handcuffed though. It's defenses needing to catch up.

It took defenses a long time to catch up to the West Coast offense, but they did. A ton of WCO passing concepts are still in the game, but the scheme hasn't been the cheat code that it was for decades now.

Same deal (on a smaller scale) with the wildcat, or the read option, or even Chip Kelly's beta version of what the Chiefs are doing.

It's funny in that these NFL offenses are basically stealing from high school and college offenses. And the way to combat it is to steal from high school and college defenses, which NFL teams haven't done yet.

Now, is Wade Phillips going to be the person to do that? I'm not too sure. But it's coming.

I think that's definitely part of it - there will be a lag in defenses dealing with some of what the Chiefs and Rams do. Part of what I love about football so much is the advancement of tactics over time and the fleeting moments of glory where a team or two has figured out a racket in the sport they work for a season or two while everyone else looks like fools. Either side of the ball.

Give me the extremes of exceptionally good football and then let the dust settle over the next 5 years.

 

[Chapow]

Am I the only one on this planet that thinks a 105 points in a football game is an abomination? Is there where we want this game to go?

I grew up watching CFL and with the wider field and 2 downs. Games looked a lot like this kind of thing. Pass happy score heavy league with pretty crappy defense.

When NFL and cable TV came to Canada I quickly fell in love with the NFL version of the NFL. Tough defenses ruled the day. RB's were the stars. WR's feared the middle where only the strong survived. It was a warrior game.

It's not the game I loved in my teens and 20's.

At least some teams like the Seahawks are trying to bring balance to the force before we all descend into the dark abyss of spread football and college basketball scores. How long that will last I don't know but I'm becoming less of a fan of this up and down the field seemingly at will due to handcuffed defenses that can't knock your block off for daring to run through the mifddle of a zone defense.

/rant

One, things change. A lot of things are different than they were in the eighties. :229031_shrug:

Two, this was the highest scoring MNF game ever and the 3rd highest scoring NFL game ever. It's not like 105 points in a game is common (or anything close to 105 points).

BTW, 2 of the top 5 highest scoring games in NFL history were in the sixties, including the highest scoring game ever. 4 of the top 10 highest scoring games ever were in the eighties.

Nope sorry I loved it.. in the end this is entertainment for me and who can say that wasn't entertaining as hell?

Completely agree with this. I was thoroughly entertained.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Nope sorry I loved it.. in the end this is entertainment for me and who can say that wasn't entertaining as hell?

Well watching Punt Pass and Kick is Entertaining to to some people and you don't have to worry about injuries. Maybe thats where the game is headed.

There was eight sacks and three defensive scores..........and two straight defensive stops with interceptions to end the game.

Enough with the "where's the defense" old curmudgeon takes. "OMG I LOVE ME SOME 9-6 FOOTBALL GAAAA!!!"

This isn't happening every week, this was THE highest scoring game in MNF history. Just so happened to be between two crazy high powered offenses and two terrible defensive backfields. Perfect storm for what we saw last night.

Yes it's what the league wants, cause the league and owners would prefer not to have to stop playing their sport because of CTE class action lawsuits.

 

[mrt144]

Is it innovative offence or have the rules just so neutered defenses that anyone with speedy wideouts and a good RB can fill Zones with crossing routes and no repercussions.

If your OL can hold up enough to give time for a crossing route to develop, it seems you can have a high scoring offence.

Anyways, I hope you are right in that it was just a case of historically good offences and mediocre defenses playing each other. But I also thought last years SB was terrible with both teams seemingly playing against air. It's not really my type of football and watching Good Morning NFL creaming themselves over this game and calling me a dinosaur for liking more traditional football really irked me.

It's a combination of both. Innovation isn't just divine inspiration in discovering that which was previously undiscovered. Innovation is also assessing the landscape and resources in front of you and combining them in a way that yields a higher utility than standard. Think therapeutics with pharmaceuticals where a drug finds new purpose in treating an illness or condition that was always there for the taking but never tried previous. Or perhaps even thinking of our ancient forefathers who made new tools from new materials when their old ones weren't cutting it (ha) and advanced their respective civilizations with iron and copper tools.

In a game, there is innovation to be found in rule changes even if the rule changes are completely at the whims and fancy of other humans. Again though, even with the humans making the rules factor, innovation is in assessing your resources and finding a way to wring utility out of it better than your peers. Perhaps that isn't the kind of innovation you seek, like truly organic revolutionary innovation but it's innovation none the less because the peer group is clearly lagging behind the few that seem to be early adopters and 'get it'.

Rule changes are great inflection points for seeing who are game players and who are football guys.

I have a really geeky story about rule changes as it pertains to gaming but I'll hold back on it unless you really want to hear it.

 

[Popeyejones]

Part of what I love about football so much is the advancement of tactics over time and the fleeting moments of glory where a team or two has figured out a racket in the sport they work for a season or two while everyone else looks like fools. Either side of the ball.

Give me the extremes of exceptionally good football and then let the dust settle over the next 5 years.

Yep. Totally how I feel too.

The other major sports don't work that way and will never really work that way because scheming just doesn't play the role that it plays in the NFL. (The upside of stopping every 5 seconds to strategize for 40 seconds). It makes the NFL a total pain to try to enjoy casually, but there really isn't another major sport like it.

 

[mrt144]

Nope sorry I loved it.. in the end this is entertainment for me and who can say that wasn't entertaining as hell?

Well watching Punt Pass and Kick is Entertaining to to some people and you don't have to worry about injuries. Maybe thats where the game is headed.

There was eight sacks and three defensive scores..........and two straight defensive stops with interceptions to end the game.

Enough with the "where's the defense" old curmudgeon takes. "OMG I LOVE ME SOME 9-6 FOOTBALL GAAAA!!!"

This isn't happening every week, this was THE highest scoring game in MNF history. Just so happened to be between two crazy high powered offenses and two terrible defensive backfields. Perfect storm for what we saw last night.

Yes it's what the league wants, cause the league and owners would prefer not to have to stop playing their sport because of CTE class action lawsuits.

At the least generous you can almost hear people saying "I wish offenses were less competent and most drives resulted in punts" because at a certain point that's almost indecipherable from wanting 'better defense'.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Hey, we all have the style of football we like. Sure a high scoring game once in awhile is great. Just my own preference that it doesn't become the norm that teams are combining for 60 plus points a game on the regular.
Last night was fun to watch no doubt, I guess everyone has their own definition of what a great game is that's all.
It was great in the back and forth nature etc. But you can't expect everyone to enjoy a game with over a hundred points. Some will, some won't, so be it.

 

[mrt144]

Part of what I love about football so much is the advancement of tactics over time and the fleeting moments of glory where a team or two has figured out a racket in the sport they work for a season or two while everyone else looks like fools. Either side of the ball.

Give me the extremes of exceptionally good football and then let the dust settle over the next 5 years.

Yep. Totally how I feel too.

The other major sports don't work that way and will never really work that way because scheming just doesn't play the role that it plays in the NFL. (The upside of stopping every 5 seconds to strategize for 40 seconds). It makes the NFL a total pain to try to enjoy casually, but there really isn't another major sport like it.

I agree in the big picture that structural design of the game makes scheming more integral in football than other sports but I also think there is also a fundamentally more change resistant type attracted to football coaching and promoted in football coaching.

Within the NBA there are tactics that exist in a more dynamic on the spot way where there are shells of what a team wants to do (Iso Heavy, Screen and Switch Heavy, etc etc) but the method is TBD on the court in near real time with some notion of where you're supposed to be and doing lingering in the back of your mind. But the simple action of abandoning mid range jumpers and directing your long range shots to mostly be threes and your close range shots to be within 3-4 feet of the bucket is something that happened all across the league once Steph Curry provided the proof of concept - yes, he is still leagues better than his peers in the 3 point game (and even has arguably the 2nd best on his team in Klay) but even his less talented peers benefit from playing more like him in aggregate. This is something analytics has shown over the course of a few seasons and you don't see many coaches or GMs in the NBA saying absurd shit like "I want to take the game of basketball back to 1998".

Back to my thought on football though - there just seems to be a natural aversion to trying things outside of your wheelhouse at the top levels. Team identity is something that seems to loom more heavily in the minds of football coaches. Outside of baseball, I don't think there is another sport like football where there is some mythic paradigm of how the game is 'supposed' to be played and even in relation to baseball, the 'supposed tos' in football are much more related to the character of an individual football game rather than baseball's 'supposed tos' relating to general conduct like bat flipping and razzing the opposition and...I'm gonna stop. Baseball is the worst of the worst in the meta rules of the game.

As was pointed out - the progression of tactical football flows up from high school to college to the NFL with the break between college and NFL being the slowest in change. One of the other aspects of the NFL that dovetails with my feeling on an inherent conservative aversion is that it seems so much of the top positions of the NFL are reshuffles from other NFL positions - OC to HC, HC to DC, DC to Line Coach, QB coach to OC. There are verily only a handful of open positions in the NFL each season where a relatively green coach's tactics and thoughts are kept from being fully explored by them simply due to the illiquid labor market of NFL coaching.

I wish I had the time to compare coaching and GM turnover across the major 4 and see the differences in tenures within the league before head coaching position, coordinator position, etc etc It wouldn't surprise me if all major 4 were close to one another but the NFL was especially calcified in giving opportunities to their minor league equivalents.

 

[mrt144]

Hey, we all have the style of football we like. Sure a high scoring game once in awhile is great. Just my own preference that it doesn't become the norm that teams are combining for 60 plus points a game on the regular.
Last night was fun to watch no doubt, I guess everyone has their own definition of what a great game is that's all.
It was great in the back and forth nature etc. But you can't expect everyone to enjoy a game with over a hundred points. Some will, some won't, so be it.

I could create a handy rubric for determining whether a game is close to a consensus of 'good'.

Things that are good in football:

Mostly successful execution of plays called on both sides.
Lead changes.
Turnovers created by inspired defensive play rather than insipid offensive failure.
Game winning drive opportunities.
A few offensive plays that leave your maw agape.
No missed kicks that are decisive in the final score.

Like these are the characteristics of a game that I think most people would enjoy regardless of the score being single digits or the total score being close to 100. I think in general with how things are in the league, that low scoring games have a larger chance to see incompetent offensive play, less made kicks, and less jaw dropping offensive plays. I'm sure the character of games where the score in the high teens to high twenties has more of these characteristics than their low scoring cousins or high scoring cousins.

 

[Ramfan128]

This thread is very funny.

Personally, I turned that game off in the 4th quarter. It wasn't entertaining, it was painful to watch the No-D NFL and the All-"Star" refs. It was like watching a boxing match where neither guy blocks a single punch, just stands there looking stupid with his hands down then punches the other one who's doing the same.

That the story of this game is bad defenses is just insane to me.

Was this a game in which two historically bad defenses were going up against each other, or a game in which two historically good offenses were going up against each other?

The answer is absolutely obvious.

Yeah, so far this year the Chiefs have the 25th ranked defense (just barely in the bottom quarter of the league) and the Rams have the 20th ranked defense, but that's really not that remarkable. These are garden variety not very good defenses.

On the other hand, you have two of the most explosive and innovative offenses in the history of the NFL trading punches against each other.

That's the context.

People take that context of two ridiculously innovative and historically effective NFL offenses going head-to-head and use it to bellyache about below average defenses and conspiracy theories about officiating?

Sorry, that's just crazy to me.

Catching up here as I've been busy, so I'm sure I'll be repeating this a few times, but..

This game featured 7 punts, 7 turnovers and 7 TDs by each team - but of the combined 14 TDs, three were defensive - along with three combined field goals.

So in other words: the offenses touched the ball a combined 28 times (not including kneel downs) and only scored TDs on 11 of those possessions.

I don't think people really know what they saw last night. Those defenses actually made quite a few plays - you had one egregious 3rd down drop by Kelce and one awful defensive play by Sam Shields who slipped - other than that, as you said, these were two explosive offenses getting the better of the defenses - but again, these "unstoppable" offenses only scored on half of their possessions.

I think people are confused because they're thinking of per game versus per drive. Because these offenses move at light speed, it skews the numbers.

 

[StoneCold]

Nope sorry I loved it.. in the end this is entertainment for me and who can say that wasn't entertaining as hell?

Are you not entertained? I thought it was fun...for a while, but then it got boring. It was too easy to score. If it's too easy it takes some of the drama out of it.

If football goes this way, I won't watch as much. Maybe I'll finally get to those needle point projects.