How many points did the refs take off the board tonight....

[NFSeahawks]

Moeaki clearly crossed the plane for a TD, that was wrongly marked a YARD back.

The other TD throw to Richardson was negated because of a screen call that is made like 1% of time in games.

Go ahead and add 8 to the Seahawks final score.

 

[MidwestHawker]

:3-1: :251864: :duel: :white_flag:

Huh? I just said I'd be happy to go along with framing it in the context that you would prefer, and then asked you to explain it within that framing. What did I do wrong now?

Nothing. Sorry I am too old to be drawn into a pissing match.

How is it a pissing match? I think I'm being perfectly civil and just trying to ask for an explanation of the mathematical probability.

 

[HawkWow]

Many good points made in this thread (especially by MidwestHawker, imo). I won't beat this dead horse because most already know my staunch, unwavering opinion on the idea that refs are "cheating". I've went so far as to report that I personally know people that would be in the middle of such shenanigans, that would be the ones pulling the strings on such shenanigans, and those people have assured me "it can't happen, it would take the involvement of too many and the involvement of so many is why it wouldn't work". Basically, if 2 people knew, that would be one too many.

One poster cites the ratio of dishonest people to honest people in society as a whole. This is a good point, but if a ref is dishonest and underhanded, wouldn't that same prick ultimately cash-in by writing a book, or telling of the nefarious activities taking place? Imagine the money to be made in that. Is it fear that prevents him from doing so? We don't hear about refs dying mysterious deaths. If we did, I'd be quite suspicious. The other issue here is if a ref is crooked, who would trust this guy with the billions generated yearly by the league?

Further, let's say it's just a rogue ref that has a friend placing bets to the side the ref favors. Again, too many people involved to make that a smart bet. I give you last night for example. We got pounded with penalties, still we covered the spread with ease. The only way I could see such activity being a winning proposition would be if the rogue ref, sure to be brought to the table by his peers and the league, had his friend betting the over on number of penalties called in the game. It's just not happening people. I'd bet on that.

BUT...we have no way of knowing for sure that a ref just doesn't like this player, or this team, so takes it upon himself to call ticky tack bullshit. I do believe this happens but I think it's isolated and definitely not part of any grand conspiracy. There's just too much at stake and exactly why Vegas doesn't cheat it's customers at the tables or anywhere else. Like the NFL, they don't have to. You don't kill the goose laying those golden eggs.

 

[RichNhansom]

That's right you live relatively close to Missouri. I give :stirthepot:

So it is your stance that we should assume that criminal behavior exists where zero evidence exists to suggest it?

Maybe you are not aware the NFL is licensed as entertainment just like the WWE wrestling. It would not be criminal for the NFL to fix games if they chose to. in fact it would be good for business.

Kind of a simple concept for you, prove it isn't going on. I know you said it first but it goes both ways. No one is imagining the bad calls or the lack of calls consistently against our opponent each weak. These are the reasons the subject has legs. If it wasn't so over the top it wouldn't be a thought.

 

[BirdsCommaAngry]

So your response to try to show that some how my posts are "crazy" doesn't answer the question. Please note I do not think the NFL has a conspiracy against the Hawks, but I truly believe there are some dishonest refs.

You are therefore implying that I am some crazy guy because I believe there could be dishonest people in the officiating of the NFL. You obviously believe that not one of them has some friend put money on the line of a game.

So please explain how the NFL managed to hire %100 honest people with no agenda and none who have succumbed to the dark side finding how easy it would to call a PI to ensure the spread was or was not maintained. Yet no other profession in the world has %100 honest people.

Rather than dismiss the idea, that there are dishonest refs, by trying to imply I am nuts, please explain how you believe that there is not one bad egg in the NFL officiating crews who makes calls for the benefit of the line????

Occam's razor. Where there is no evidence to suggest that a crime has been committed, I tend to believe that no crime has been committed.

Occam's razor needs to be taken with a grain of salt because we (human beings in general) also have a hearty bias toward simplicity. In other words, simplicity can often be preferable to accuracy even in situations like this where we're making accusations of corruption and accuracy is much more important than simplicity.

 

[MidwestHawker]

Maybe you are not aware the NFL is licensed as entertainment just like the WWE wrestling. It would not be criminal for the NFL to fix games if they chose to. in fact it would be good for business.

I assumed that the NFL was under the same category as the NBA; Tim Donaghy went to prison for his deliberate miscalls in NBA games. I just googled around and couldn't find anything about the NFL being licensed differently. What's your source on that?

Kind of a simple concept for you, prove it isn't going on. I know you said it first but it goes both ways.

I mean...no it really doesn't go both ways. By that logic I could ask you to prove that there aren't unicorns, or to prove that toys don't really come to life behind our backs like they do in Toy Story. The burden lies with whoever is asserting an unproven fact. I can't prove a negative; I can only point to absence of evidence of something's existence, same as the absurd hypotheticals I just named.

No one is imagining the bad calls or the lack of calls consistently against our opponent each weak. These are the reasons the subject has legs. If it wasn't so over the top it wouldn't be a thought.

First it's important that we all acknowledge that we're biased in the matter. Hawks get screwed on a bad call, we stew about it for a long time. Hawks benefit on a botched call, we may notice it but then we shrug and largely stop thinking about it. There's inevitably a significant amount of selection bias here in what people are perceiving as unfair.

One thing is true, that we're getting called for a lot more penalties than our opponents are...but obviously teams do commit penalties at disparate rates too, and it's not as if teams all commit the same amount. We might be getting a bit of the worse end of the calls right now, but that doesn't create any sort of rebuttable presumption that there is any deliberate wrongdoing going on. The sample size of calls in controversy remains small enough that yes, "coincidence" is easily a very viable explanation for all of it, and is easily the most likely one as well since it doesn't require any significant assumptions to get there.

Again, fans have an absurd expectation of the officials to make zero errors in a game even though we accept a certain error rate in the players of the game and in human beings in general. It doesn't align with reality.

 

[MidwestHawker]

Occam's razor needs to be taken with a grain of salt because we (human beings in general) also have a hearty bias toward simplicity. In other words, simplicity can often be preferable to accuracy even in situations like this where we're making accusations of corruption and accuracy is much more important than simplicity.

So your alternate solution is that we go forward under the assumption that something is happening that no available evidence points to?

I could be convinced to go against Occam's razor if proposed a superior alternative.

 

[StoneCold]

This is a pointless discussion. I'd bet if you looked closely at all of our games you'd find an equal number of ticky tacky to missed calls to downright imaginary penalties for each team. And when you add up the false starts, off sides and clear holding and PI and hands to the face etc, the truth would reveal the Hawks commit more actual penalties than other teams. It comes with being aggressive. I'm ok with that.

SC

 

[scutterhawk]

How many points robbed from the Seahawks? 8

 

[Lords of Scythia]

Am I the only one who watched this game against a division rival and questioned the penalties? The effort the refs expended especially in the third quarter was ridiculous. When will the NFL just let games play out. I get that the home team should get more calls but this is becoming blatant. The Hawks should have had hung 30+ on the niners. The bad calls are so obvious, total attempt to control the final score. Didn't matter tonight because the niners were inept on offense.

No, you sure as hell are not. The refs this year are ON CRACK. It's like they feel sorry for our opponents, or some ****.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

So your response to try to show that some how my posts are "crazy" doesn't answer the question. Please note I do not think the NFL has a conspiracy against the Hawks, but I truly believe there are some dishonest refs.

You are therefore implying that I am some crazy guy because I believe there could be dishonest people in the officiating of the NFL. You obviously believe that not one of them has some friend put money on the line of a game.

So please explain how the NFL managed to hire %100 honest people with no agenda and none who have succumbed to the dark side finding how easy it would to call a PI to ensure the spread was or was not maintained. Yet no other profession in the world has %100 honest people.

Rather than dismiss the idea, that there are dishonest refs, by trying to imply I am nuts, please explain how you believe that there is not one bad egg in the NFL officiating crews who makes calls for the benefit of the line????

Occam's razor. Where there is no evidence to suggest that a crime has been committed, I tend to believe that no crime has been committed.

I'm sorry man--that ain't Occam's razor--a crime HAS been committed (go look at the graphs).

 

[RichNhansom]

These debates are tiresome and not worth chasing.

I believe the NFL is deliberately trying to keep games close for obvious reasons. Look at your top teams, Seattle, Denver and NE for the teams most penalized and the Jaguars for the least.

Believe what you want. I have watched the game for 40 years and I know the difference between a timely ticky tacky call or just plain bad call and an actual bad call. There is a very visible pattern that coincides with the stats and the eyeball test. You can believe what you want I prefer to believe what I see and common sense tells me.

 

[StoneCold]

These debates are tiresome and not worth chasing.

I believe the NFL is deliberately trying to keep games close for obvious reasons. Look at your top teams, Seattle, Denver and NE for the teams most penalized and the Jaguars for the least.

Believe what you want. I have watched the game for 40 years and I know the difference between a timely ticky tacky call or just plain bad call and an actual bad call. There is a very visible pattern that coincides with the stats and the eyeball test. You can believe what you want I prefer to believe what I see and common sense tells me.

If what you say is true the games are rigged. If it ever comes out, some kind of smoking gun memo or someone on the inside talks, the NFL stands to lose billions of dollars. I can't speak for everyone, but if I believed the games were rigged I would quit watching. I think they would lose 90% of their audience. Billions POOF! With so much at risk I can't believe they'd be that stupid. It doesn't make sense. This whole rigged argument is just dumb

SC.

 

[irocdave]

The NFL is an entertainment industry, period. I don't think the refs are corrupt, but it's obvious there has been some form of direction from the NFL to the officials as to what is expected of them and the games in general. You don't need to see the "smoking gun document" to understand what is happening. The money comes from the television rights to the games. Fans of the losing team and casual viewers turn the game off in blowouts. It's really easy to see why this is happening. It's all about the TV dollars. When the Hawks take a downturn they will not be given the same officiating considerations if playing one of the "glamor" franchises, you can bet on that.

 

[Smellyman]

I don't know if it is fixed or not. I do think refs HATE the hawks.

it is almost statistically impossible to be the MOST penalized team, while the opponents are the LEAST penalized.

just getting bent over this season is tiresome.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

The NFL is an entertainment industry, period. I don't think the refs are corrupt, but it's obvious there has been some form of direction from the NFL to the officials as to what is expected of them and the games in general. You don't need to see the "smoking gun document" to understand what is happening. The money comes from the television rights to the games. Fans of the losing team and casual viewers turn the game off in blowouts. It's really easy to see why this is happening. It's all about the TV dollars. When the Hawks take a downturn they will not be given the same officiating considerations if playing one of the "glamor" franchises, you can bet on that.

The NBA sure as hell is rigged--Stern did it to extend high-ratings series, or to get certain teams into the finals.

 

[twisted_steel2]

Interesting.

Along with http://www.nflpenalties.com/

We see our opponents are also the least penalized in the NFL when playing us.

Like Carroll says yea we have some work to do on our side, and he's right. But the graphs above and the crazy low amount of penalties called against our opponents.... man just frustrating. Just call an EVEN game.

 

[RichNhansom]

These debates are tiresome and not worth chasing.

I believe the NFL is deliberately trying to keep games close for obvious reasons. Look at your top teams, Seattle, Denver and NE for the teams most penalized and the Jaguars for the least.

Believe what you want. I have watched the game for 40 years and I know the difference between a timely ticky tacky call or just plain bad call and an actual bad call. There is a very visible pattern that coincides with the stats and the eyeball test. You can believe what you want I prefer to believe what I see and common sense tells me.

If what you say is true the games are rigged. If it ever comes out, some kind of smoking gun memo or someone on the inside talks, the NFL stands to lose billions of dollars. I can't speak for everyone, but if I believed the games were rigged I would quit watching. I think they would lose 90% of their audience. Billions POOF! With so much at risk I can't believe they'd be that stupid. It doesn't make sense. This whole rigged argument is just dumb

SC.

No I don't believe the games are fixed and I don't believe their is a conspiracy against the Seahawks. I see it as being a good team might not be enough to go undefeated and blow every team away each week. Even if you are that team you may still lose games but in the end being better does give you better odds of over coming everything. I guess I see it as kind of a challenge inside a challenge. You have to be even better than just the better team to win sometimes and if the opponent isn't challenge enough then the NFL will see to it you are still challenged. Vice verse, teams like the Jag's are getting penalized less because the NFL wants them to appear more competitive otherwise no one would bother to turn on any games they play in.

The games aren't scripted like wrestling though. Any team still has a fighting chance but they may need to overcome more than just an opponent. When I don't believe that I will stop watching.

 

[rcaido]

I expect bad calls for us but i want more calls from the other team too...How many helmet to helmet hits has our players gotten that were no calls...How many late hits have they done on Wilson, i dont think Wilson has had a call yet from a late hit this year. Those border line TD's, why not just call it a TD & review it later.

Its to the point i cant even celebrate a TD or a big play anymore...I delay my celebration, wait to see if there is any flags, & then cheer. Its sad...

 

[trharder]

I believe the NFL is deliberately trying to keep games close for obvious reasons. Look at your top teams, Seattle, Denver and NE for the teams most penalized and the Jaguars for the least.

Believe what you want. I have watched the game for 40 years and I know the difference between a timely ticky tacky call or just plain bad call and an actual bad call. There is a very visible pattern that coincides with the stats and the eyeball test. You can believe what you want I prefer to believe what I see and common sense tells me.

Well said. For those that disagree, what do you make of the graph posted? Can you explain that without there being any sort of bias? Are the refs encouraged to keep it close? Or, do they in general dislike the Seahaws? Or, do refs inherently try and help the team that is losing or the underdog? I don't know, but you just can't get statistics that are that out of wack without some sort of bias going on. Last nights 49er game was the worst. Coincidentally, what NFL HC has made the biggest stink about the Seahawks cheating on defense? Also, what rule was said going to be more strictly enforced this year? What team's secondary was getting nit picked last night? How many more sacks would the Seahawks have this year if it was "offensive holding" as the point of emphasis before the season?

I criticize referees as a sport and make no apologies for it as it's what I enjoy doing, but I used to believe it was mostly all in my head. That is until I watched the NBA ref that got caught gambling explain, that the inside knowledge he relied on to make his wagers was the locker room talk of the other refs and how they were going to "send a message" etc. to certain players, etc. Watch this. Start about the 4 minute mark if you are in a hurry.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-nba-ref- ... onal-foul/