Hurtt will be only major firing

[pittpnthrs]

If Pete were actually coaching the defense instead of sticking to his head coaching philosophy (he just sets vision and scheme, coordinators coach the actual details and minutiae within that framework) I'm sure they'd be at least average. He gives too much leeway on defense for coordinators to bone things up like Hurtt has. They'd be at least KNJ-era level (probably slightly better) if he were interested in actually taking over the unit imo.

We have completely opposite takes on this, but that's ok.

 

[pittpnthrs]

So I think that with the RIGHT Player acquisitions, better DC & a more imaginative OC, we could do a lot BETTER.
Pete absolutely HAS HAD the right combo of Players/DC's/OC's, and has had top of the line success because of it.
You don't throw the baby out with the mucky bathwater.

Scutter that was a decade ago. The baby has already drowned in the mucky bathwater.

 

[renofox]

If Pete were actually coaching the defense instead of sticking to his head coaching philosophy (he just sets vision and scheme, coordinators coach the actual details and minutiae within that framework) I'm sure they'd be at least average. He gives too much leeway on defense for coordinators to bone things up like Hurtt has. They'd be at least KNJ-era level (probably slightly better) if he were interested in actually taking over the unit imo.

The debate over "PC is a micromanager" vs "PC is too hands-off" has been going on for years. I haven't come down on either side lately because I don't have convincing evidence either way.

But either way, PC is failing.

If the "PC is a micromanager" argument is correct, PC has been sabotaging his coordinators while using them as scapegoats. Saying they have full authority when they don't is a CYA move and a serious weakness of leadership.

If the "PC is too hands-off" argument is correct, PC is not adequately coaching his coaches. When you're at the top of the local chain of command, you're biggest responsibility is to make sure those immediately under you are doing their job and providing maximum value to the organization. If they aren't succeeding, you need to intervene and do whatever it takes to ameliorate the situation - going so far as doing his job for him side-by-side while hammering the training into his skull.

Either way, we are witnessing a serious failure of leadership in this facet.

Unfortunately, almost every other facet of leadership is also showing signs of weakness. Including the facet for which he is hailed as outstanding - Culture Building.

When so many players display the now common IDGAF attitude, there are serious issues with the current culture.

 

[DarkVictory23]

There's actual game footage of Diggs, Woolen, and Adams just standing around during plays. They gave up. Why? Because they are set up for failure. Bad system indeed. It's so bad, its laughable.

There is actual footage of guys standing around during plays, yes. The 'whys' are mostly just baseless speculation.

Some of the videos of guys standing around are only being highlighted right now because we're searching for our narrative. In point of fact, you can find shots of guys standing around on probably 1 out of every 1 plays across the NFL. Playing football is physically draining, guys often need to make calculated decisions about when extra effort is just wasted energy.

The shot of Diggs for example, can be explained by a variety of reasons. He'd given up on the game? Yeah, that could be one. He thought the runner was down already? Well, I did, and I didn't have a bunch of 300 lb. dudes blocking my vision. He's just worn out from trying to stop the Pittsburgh run game and failing over and over? I know I would be.

The fact is, I don't know and neither do you.

But what I do know, is that the narrative was that the Eagles game--and then the Titans game--were going to be the games that told us whether the team had given up on Pete and the season. Of course, that only lasted until the offense and defense showed up in the final minutes of both those games--so now they don't count.

Weird how that worked out...

 

[Ozzy]

If Pete were actually coaching the defense instead of sticking to his head coaching philosophy (he just sets vision and scheme, coordinators coach the actual details and minutiae within that framework) I'm sure they'd be at least average. He gives too much leeway on defense for coordinators to bone things up like Hurtt has. They'd be at least KNJ-era level (probably slightly better) if he were interested in actually taking over the unit imo.

I just don't think this is actually happening regardless of what he says. There is a ton of practive footage out there where you can tell Pete is one of the most hands on coaches in the league. He's admitted even this year when talking about game plans, schemes etc that its "we". Look at it this way since your angle is one of a defense of Pete. If what you say is true doesn't that show that Pete is a massive falure? This defense is 32nd in EPA and close in almost every metric for 2 YEARS now....if he is still hands off and its been 34 weeks of failure in a row game wise or 2 full years calander wise isn't that almost worse?

That is way I say its ultimate Pete because both options are terrible for him. Either he is helpless and is just sitting back hoping his coaches figure it out even though he's an all time great defensive mind(which come on how feasible is that?) or He is involved and can't figure it out. Both are bad. If it was one year and he was just trying to get through the season I would understand but that isn't the case. Throw in the fact that unlike most coaches he's actually in charge of the player acquisition as well! That's why I'm baffled when people want to cut the DC but not the guy who's in charge of it all AND has his hands in every aspect of it.

 

[scutterhawk]

Since DQ, we actually get worse with each defensive coordinator change. Our head coach is supposed to know about defense. I've never seen anything like this. It would be like Andy Reid having a 23rd or lower ranked offense for 6 years straight.

Since Dairy Queen? lol
both Offenses AND Defenses across the League have gone through some extreme metamorphic changes over the last ten years or so, several Rules (Protecting the Quarterback etc.) have altered how teams can play Defensively....I'm betting that the Hip Drop Tackle will be one that draws a penalty within the next couple years, just like the going in too low on the Quarterback.
It was Pete's Seahawks who were on the leading edge on how to get the crown of the helmet out of the tackling, trouble is NOW, we're seeing a lot more of the Stiff Arm coming into play.
CONSTANT CHANGES are challenging the BEST HC's in the League.

 

[ZagHawk]

What are you guys talking about? everything can be boiled down to just a handful of plays where a player or two missed an assignment.

/s

 

[knownone]

Reed has been mostly good, though! That's the thing that gets me. He's been penetrative, stout, and very much looks like vintage Jarran. Mario Edwards has also played well individually, and Williams is a bona fide wrecking ball. Dre'Mont is also a proven talent that we paid market value for. They can, and should, play better than "bar none the worst in the league currently."

I don't think talent can fix this. It can hide certain parts of it, but this is systemic. The tackling issues and all that sort of thing aren't explicitly coachable, but getting these guys to play with basic integrity is, and that portion of our play is just eroding further and further into an irretrievable mess.

We're shoveling legitimate talent onto that line, and the returns keep getting worse and worse. That isn't just players instantly forgetting how to play - its a failure of the defensive coaching staff not displaying the capability to impart a mastery of our relatively simple defensive concepts to these players. There are about 18 defenses out there with less raw talent on the line yet they're able to do more with it.

No one should expect a top defense with our weakness at linebacker and our tackling issues in the secondary, but I cannot find a way to defend Clint ending the year with another rapidly declining unit that can't operate on a basic level.

If the issues are effort related with certain players, that needs to be handled on a personnel level. The fits are still a constant issue. No plays where everyone seems to just do their job.

Going strictly off PFF numbers (which I know has limitations), Reed has been below average down-to-down this season. His numbers are nearly identical to his last few seasons. The same is true of Dre'Mont. He grades out as a rotational-level player with upside as a pass rusher (which is probably why he had a decent market). Again, I don't think they are bad players. It's more that the Seahawks lack a true difference-maker upfront besides Williams. And even Williams, as good as he is, has still been only a slightly above-average starter the last few seasons. Worse, none of these guys have been elite run-stoppers, which is—and has been—Seattle's most significant issue.

So, what legitimate talent have they shoveled into the line besides Williams? Mafe's been good, but he's still developing. The side opposite him has been terrible since Nwosu went down. Hall and Taylor are two of the worst run defenders in the league by a wide margin. Bobby is good between the tackles and too slow to make a difference consistently everywhere else. Brooks has been league-average and injury-prone. Devin Bush has been one of the worst tackling linebackers since he was drafted.

Where's the proven talent in the front seven? Where are the elite difference makers? The front office built a fast defense to rush the passer and cover. They don't have anyone up front that profiles as an elite run-stopper or all-around gamewrecker. And teams are bludgeoning them with the running game to open up holes in the pass defense. That's why things have gotten progressively worse.

To be fair, they've played 11/16 games against top ten rushing offenses (EPA). And that doesn't include the Titans, who've historically been in the top 5 over the past few seasons. So they probably aren't as bad as their numbers imply. But, to me, this once again feels like Seattle's front office miscalculated and tried to zag. Instead of committing to being a physical team—which is supposedly their identity—they continue to invest from the secondary inward while trying to patch holes inside with cheap players and largely unproven free agents. Like, Dre'Mont Jones hasn't been a great player his entire career, but they're expecting him to be that guy here?

 

[scutterhawk]

The baby is now an adult!

Rolly Eyes ^^^

 

[Maelstrom787]

I just don't think this is actually happening regardless of what he says. There is a ton of practive footage out there where you can tell Pete is one of the most hands on coaches in the league. He's admitted even this year when talking about game plans, schemes etc that its "we". Look at it this way since your angle is one of a defense of Pete.

My angle is not a defense of Pete, it's an implicit criticism for allowing his defense to be reprehensibly bad for two years straight with zero in-season improvement. Pete can gameplan all he wants, he can scheme all he wants, he can tell these coaches to do whatever - but it isn't getting done. The techniques are not being taught effectively, no one is on the same page, and everyone is making errors. Tackling issues are a confidence issue, and you need to know your role to play confident. These guys aren't being brought up right. They look like a group of free agents with zero practice time that's been forced into action, for 2 years straight!

Pete is either bad at coaching defense, which I think is less likely than the alternative, or he's dictating the framework of what the coordinator needs to impart, and then the coordinator is implementing it terribly. Pete's a superintendent who used to be a teacher, but now he's writing the curriculum and trying to let his teachers shine. Problem is the teacher he decided to head his "class of defense" sucks wet dog ass, can't control his class, and no one is learning. That's the general idea of what I think is happening. Carroll is no longer the premier defensive mind in the NFL, but he's done a whole lot scheme-wise in his career and he has never been a poor coach when it comes to bringing up individual pupils and getting them to play nicely together.

The only route forward is a bringing in new DC who has a plethora of experience (and good track record) to steady the ship, or bringing in a young stud DC and surrounding him with a shit-ton of experienced positional coaches to lean on. No other options. If Clint is on the staff next year, or is planned to be on the staff next year, I want Carroll forced to resign as a "mutual" decision. And that breaks my goddamn heart.

If what you say is true doesn't that show that Pete is a massive falure? This defense is 32nd in EPA and close in almost every metric for 2 YEARS now....if he is still hands off and its been 34 weeks of failure in a row game wise or 2 full years calander wise isn't that almost worse?

It isn't almost worse. It is worse. The former could be solved by ceding full defensive control to a new DC and focusing solely on motivation, development, and game management until retirement. The latter means he stuck with what 2022 brought us out of foolish, foolish pride... or misplaced loyalty. Neither are especially defensible.

That is way I say its ultimate Pete because both options are terrible for him. Either he is helpless and is just sitting back hoping his coaches figure it out even though he's an all time great defensive mind(which come on how feasible is that?) or He is involved and can't figure it out. Both are bad.

This is what I mean when I say that "ultimate culpability falls on Pete." It's not a cop out on my end. I think that's where I'm confusing people - my criticisms of Hurtt are full well criticisms of Pete as well. I just try to delineate what I logically think Hurtt is mainly responsible for vs. what I think Pete is responsible for. Hurtt is responsible for being completely overmatched in his role, and Pete is responsible for enabling this charade.

If it was one year and he was just trying to get through the season I would understand but that isn't the case. Throw in the fact that unlike most coaches he's actually in charge of the player acquisition as well! That's why I'm baffled when people want to cut the DC but not the guy who's in charge of it all AND has his hands in every aspect of it.

I think the player acquisition title is a bit misleading. I don't think this means Pete is dictating every decision. If the majority of these choices weren't delegated to John Schneider, John Schneider would be gone and he would've been gone like 7 years ago to run his own show. John is running the ship on draft day, he's probably the one pretty much fully composing the free agent board (with Pete's input, but not his direction) and he's coming to Pete to make collaborative decisions as any GM should with his head coach. Pete probably has pulled rank a good few times, but I'm sure it isn't frequent. Again, John could easily just get another prestigious GM job pretty much instantly.

I get what you're saying with the last sentence, but Pete has coached winning units for the vast majority of his career, including likely another one this year despite increasingly obvious flaws. That indicates savvy, it indicates competence beyond the initial impression for us fans, and it indicates worth. For Hurtt, I think that he's responsible for a lot of the glaring stuff on defense through being ill-suited for coordinator roles, and I also don't owe him anything because he's never proven any sort of aptitude in his role. Track record makes one easier to justify keeping than the other.

 

[Maelstrom787]

To summarize: I'm not defending Pete by bashing Hurtt, I'm just not scapegoating a single party. I want to point out the flaws I see from every party I identify as being problematic, and JS/PC and both coordinators have their share of icky shit on their ends right now.

 

[Ozzy]

Good stuff. I might disagree a little here and there but really it’s much closer to aligning than being in disagreement big picture wise.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Good stuff. I might disagree a little here and there but really it’s much closer to aligning than being in disagreement big picture wise.

This is why I get frustrated at being labelled a Pete supporter in a blind nature. I might not communicate it with the same sense of anger, but I'm deeply disappointed that he's allowed this to continue without decisive action, and it's going to take some really decisive action from him this offseason for me to feel like he's the best man for the job in 2024.

Unlike most, he's got an opportunity to get me back on-board by putting an undeniable effort into classing this team back up, but success will need to follow or I will absolutely agree that it's time for Pete to move on.

The first several weeks of the offseason are make-or-break for me this time. It either changes in a big way, or I'm out. I'll still talk about the minutiae of the team in as logical a manner as I can, but I certainly won't be offering much of a defense of Carroll's decisions (unless he proves me wrong in the W column).