Irvin on the edge of bust

[RiverDog]

Instead of looking at a single pick, why not look at the whole draft...

1. Bruce Irvin,
2. Wagner
3. Russell Wilson ...
4. Robert Turbin
6. Jeremy Lane
7. J.R. Sweezy
FA. Jermain Kearse
...

Not every pick would be perfect. But this draft was as good as it can be. We got 2 fantastic players, who will be around for a long time (Wagner + Wilson) and a player, who might or might not stick. To me, this is a successful draft.

That's the way I would look at it. You win some, you lose some. We won more in this draft than we lost...

No one is complaining about our overall draft success or other personnel acquisitions. We've done very well since Pete and John have arrived, way better than average in the later rounds, not as good with the top picks. The discussion here is exclusive to one player, Bruce Irvin, and how he has fared.

Noting the success of some of his classmates does not mean we would have been better off taking said player, nor does noting the failures of some of his classmates make a bad pick look good.

 

[HawkFan72]

I wanted the Hawks to draft Chandler Jones so bad in that draft. It is painful to watch Irvin flounder while Jones has developed into one of the best young DEs in football.

I really don't like comparing guys on other teams that are flourishing and assuming that they would be just as good here. It's great that they are doing well for their respective teams. It's not a given they would be doing the same for the Seahawks. There have been plenty of instances where the Seahawks have brought in a marquee player only to see him not fit as well here.

Do the Patriots run the same style of defense the Seahawks do? Ya it's a 4-3 defense but are they the same type of schemes, etc?

Good point, but you'd have to be blind to not see Chandler Jones had a ton of talent when he was drafted. He was basically a Jason Pierre-Paul clone. He would have been a monster in our Defense, regardless of schemes.

 

[hawkfan68]

I wanted the Hawks to draft Chandler Jones so bad in that draft. It is painful to watch Irvin flounder while Jones has developed into one of the best young DEs in football.

I really don't like comparing guys on other teams that are flourishing and assuming that they would be just as good here. It's great that they are doing well for their respective teams. It's not a given they would be doing the same for the Seahawks. There have been plenty of instances where the Seahawks have brought in a marquee player only to see him not fit as well here.

Do the Patriots run the same style of defense the Seahawks do? Ya it's a 4-3 defense but are they the same type of schemes, etc?

Good point, but you'd have to be blind to not see Chandler Jones had a ton of talent when he was drafted. He was basically a Jason Pierre-Paul clone. He would have been a monster in our Defense, regardless of schemes.

Chandler Jones is super talented. No question. However, it wasn't enough to impress JS/PC at draft time for whatever reason. Irvin impressed them more. Just like PC/JS choosing Earl Thomas over Taylor Mays. Players develop at different speeds. In his second year, Irvin was switched to a new position. So really he's still year 2 mode for that. In his new position, it's more difficult to judge him on sack stats since he's asked to drop back in coverage a lot. Looking back at yesterday's game, I'm surprised that he wasn't covering Gates. He's as big as Wright and probably faster (could have done a better job keeping up with Gates). He did well against Graham last year.

 

[Ozzy]

Zero excuse for hitting Rivers 5 yards out of bounds during a crucial third down at that point in the game. LIterally one of the most baffling mistakes I can remember with this team.

18' out of bounds? :shock: Glad nobody on .NET exaggerates after a loss!

How did you come up with 18'?

And was it not 5 yards? It looked to be just outside the whitestrip but maybe I'm off. I watched once and was lost in a sea of disbelief. :shock:

 

[Hawks46]

[Wow, there is a ton of assumption in this post.

I would say a fair assumption from it is: the team is ready to take the next step now and dind't want to wait for Irvin to develop.

I could almost guarantee you that Pete and John don't look at one game, specifically a playoff game, as a rookie, and go "welp, he sucks. no redemption...get a rope." If they did, we'd have way more roster turnover than we have now. Now fans....we overreact exactly that much.

I also think the whole "Pete and John didn't want to spend all that money" on Bennett and Avril. They didn't effect our cap and we definately didn't over pay for them. I can just see the conversation "well, we drafted Irvin and he was raw, but after that Atlanta game....whooo boy. We don't really like Avril or Bennett, and good gosh we shouldn't be spending money on them, but after that one game...ouch !"

I try not to make all these sweeping assumptions. Sure, you're right....if someone was poor at a position, yes they get moved in an effort to salvage the player/draft pick. You see this the most with OT's going to OG (also the reason Tackle has more value...you can move a guy inside if he busts). Thing is, I agree somewhat...Pete and John probably didn't want to hinge our entire season on whether Irvin made that next step. Once they got Avril and Bennett, well now we're really deep there, so we move Irvin to another position. Not because he's irredeemable, but because he's an elite athlete and we want him on the field.

Of course, they didn't make the decision after just one game. They do have practices that we are not privvy to, and one possibility is that they suspected even before the Atlanta game that he didn't have what they were looking for in a Leo but were forced to put him in there as we didn't have a whole lot of other options.

Yes, Quinn was new to the coaching staff and I'm sure he had some ideas about improving our defense and getting the most out of our players, including Irvin. But make no mistake, this is Pete's defense. He's not going to subscribe to the wishes of a new coordinator on a position move if he was satisfied with Irvin's progress. Irvin himself said that the move "saved my career", so one can surmise that he wasn't cutting it.

Oh, I agree with you, but there was some sarcasm in my post. Obviosuly they don't base things on one game, but the post I quoted specifically named one game as the shining example of why Irvin's a bust. There was a lot of implication that it was due to that single game.

And I agree, we're not privy to things the coaches see on a daily basis. So, we're calling Irvin a bust, but maybe he's tearing it up in practice. It's why I also mentioned that I try not to make sweeping assumptions. One of my personal flaws is that I can be a bit contrarian, and when I see sweeping assumptions, or over generalization "it's ALWAYS like this" "EVERYONE thinks so" I tend to start to debate a point more than I should. Unless I feel the point is reasonable.

I honestly don't think it's reasonable to draft a kid that's raw (and thus needs "development"), play him in one spot his rookie year, switch his position to one he's NEVER (this one is true) played before, then call him a bust 2 games into his 3rd year. There's plenty of people we would've sh*t canned by this time that had more experience in their positions. One of those would've been Golden Tate. Good thing coaches are more patient than we are.

 

[Rainger]

Zero excuse for hitting Rivers 5 yards out of bounds during a crucial third down at that point in the game. LIterally one of the most baffling mistakes I can remember with this team.

Sorry but I just couldn't let this comment go un-responded. Please re watch the play. Lets not get carried away with exaggeration and hyperbole. My god.

Yes it was a bone headed play. But he pushed Rivers in the white along the side line. That is nothing like 5 yards out of bounds. To be 5 yards put of bounds they would have to be beyond the entire bench area.

Secondly if this is one of the most baffling mistakes you can remember with the team then you only started watching this year. Just saying.

Was it stupid? you betcha. Was it either of the things you said absolutely NOT.

PS: (5 yards = 15 FEET) that would be more than two body lengths from the side line. My god all the players stand within the 6 foot side line white area that non players are not allowed in. It was within 2 feet of this 6 foot side line he touched him in. Far from 5 YARDS.

 

[Mick063]

Projects are undrafted free agents like Benson Mayowa.

You don't draft a defensive player at #15, give him multiple starts over two seasons, and declare he needs a little seasoning to reach his potential.

You don't draft projects at #15 (although LT, QB, or WR often need a little grooming).

Clay Mathews was a terror from day one.

In the sense that Irvin was #15 overall, he is indeed a bust. He may be a serviceable role player, but that is not what they drafted him for, nor paid him for. When his contract is due, he will sign for the amount that a serviceable role player should receive or he will end up elsewhere.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[TwilightError]

I'd be lying if I said I haven't watched Melvin Ingram and Courtney Upshaw, who were usually speculated as the seahawks first round pick in 2012, and thought to myself "this guy can produce". Irvin was a reach and although he started well, has yet to find his place on the team. I'm not ready to give up on him but it will be interesting to see whether the Hawks will pick his fifth year option?

The Seahawks have their own way of drafting, it is hit and miss just as with any team, just a different hit and miss.

 

[rjdriver]

Maybe not worth the #15th overall pick, especially with hindsight, but he's definitely not a bad player.

A Pass rush specialist who had 2 sacks last year and can never beat his man one on one?

I would have, and Im serious, cut his ass yesterday if we had anyone else to go to. That play cost us significant time, and made the defense stay on the field in the most lopsided TOP game I have watched in a long time. It would have been 23-21 with the Hawks getting the ball in the 4th instead of 27-21, with more time remaining.

The guy is very near bust status, and to pull that stuff out of bounds, at that point in a road game.... WOW, just WOW.

To be fair, the Chargers were in clear field goal range. A successful attempt would have made it 26-21, still requiring a touchdown. I agree that we really, really needed off that field though, and that error could have very well made the difference in the outcome.

 

[Year of The Hawk]

I find it interesting that people are so consumed with where he was drafted. Once drafted it means NOTHING. At that point to Pete & Co. it is a matter of can you perform to the high level they need. Even if he is only decent and not great why is it so bad. On that note I don't follow his play much but I definitely don' see him as a game changer. I think he is at his ceiling. Is that ceiling good enough? I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the chopping block next year.

 

[Year of The Hawk]

I find it interesting that people are so consumed with where he was drafted. Once drafted it means NOTHING. At that point to Pete & Co. it is a matter of can you perform to the high level they need. Even if he is only decent and not great why is it so bad. On that note I don't follow his play much but I definitely don' see him as a game changer. I think he is at his ceiling. Is that ceiling good enough? I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the chopping block next year.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Haha, Bruce Irvin is 2 games into his 3rd season. He's one of, if not the most athletic LBers in the NFL.

Once he gets it, he going to be dominant. I doubt the Seahawks are listening to any of you, negative nancies who think they know better, they'll continue to develop Irvin, and eventually they'll get the results they want.

Some of you are just unreasonably spoiled or something, sense of entitlement, outrageous expectations or something... tell me... where was Chris Clemons the first 6 years of his career?

Irvin is doing just fine in his progression.

 

[RiverDog]

I find it interesting that people are so consumed with where he was drafted. Once drafted it means NOTHING. At that point to Pete & Co. it is a matter of can you perform to the high level they need. Even if he is only decent and not great why is it so bad. On that note I don't follow his play much but I definitely don' see him as a game changer. I think he is at his ceiling. Is that ceiling good enough? I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the chopping block next year.

It means nothing on the field. It means a lot when coaches, including armchair coaches like ourselves, want to go back and see what can be learned by our failures from previous drafts.

Besides, how much fun is it to sit around and blow smoke up each other's rear ends at about how we snookered the rest of the league by selecting Russell Wilson in the 3rd round yet be prohibited from musing about how we blew it on the Irvin pick? It makes for a good topic.

As far as what happens to Irvin next year, yea, he might not make the team. I see him as a bubble player, and depending on our acquisitions in 2015, he could very well end up being cut. We almost certainly will not be picking up his 5th year option, and that in itself should tell you that he's been a disappointment.

 

[Ozzy]

Zero excuse for hitting Rivers 5 yards out of bounds during a crucial third down at that point in the game. LIterally one of the most baffling mistakes I can remember with this team.

Sorry but I just couldn't let this comment go un-responded. Please re watch the play. Lets not get carried away with exaggeration and hyperbole. My god.

Yes it was a bone headed play. But he pushed Rivers in the white along the side line. That is nothing like 5 yards out of bounds. To be 5 yards put of bounds they would have to be beyond the entire bench area.

Secondly if this is one of the most baffling mistakes you can remember with the team then you only started watching this year. Just saying.

Was it stupid? you betcha. Was it either of the things you said absolutely NOT.

PS: (5 yards = 15 FEET) that would be more than two body lengths from the side line. My god all the players stand within the 6 foot side line white area that non players are not allowed in. It was within 2 feet of this 6 foot side line he touched him in. Far from 5 YARDS.

Rainger so this is the "one" post you couldn't let slide? We are talking about a matter of feet. LOL!

I've watched football for much longer than one year but out of curiosity can you name A BUNCH of plays that you consider dumber at the end of a game, on third down when you need a crucial stop to win the game the past 3 years? I'm not the only one saying this literally EVERYONE is saying it. So again point me to some other mental lapses at the end of games that potentially changed the outcome of the game. There must be dozens since you just couldn't let that post slide.

For others in this thread....I actually still have hopes that he can be a very good player. He flashes at times, just needs to be more disciplined at times.

 

[Jazzhawk]

This entire thread of so full of "suck" and emotion I don't know where to start, so I quoted this post.

Irvin played LB last year. He dropped into zones, he played against the pass OFF the line of scrimmage. He was NOT a pass rush specialist last year. His rookie year he was, and led all rookies is sacks and pressures. So make up your minds, is he a pass rush specialist or LBer ?

Last year was his first year playing LB at ANY level. He went into the NFL and didn't embarass himself. There are a TON of 1st round draft picks that played LBer all their lives that played much worse than Irvin did last year.

Has he been worth his draft slot ? Most likely not, but keep in mind what the FO was doing when the drafted him. Our roster was loaded and deep. Irvin was raw coming out of college, he admitted it and the coaching staff did as well. So we "reached" on a developmental pick that would show good returns in the FUTURE. He played a year, got a bit exposed in the playoffs (whoah, a rookie getting exposed in his first playoffs ? Say it aint so !) then switched positions to something unfamiliar.

I didn't see the game. I heard it on radio, and Raible and Moon were constantly calling Irvin's number. That's all I need to know. Oh, and how many sacks did we have on Rivers ? Evidently Irvin wasn't the only Seahawk missing sacks. Lets cut em all. The overreaction on this thread is that significant.

My gawd...thank you. Sanity in the midst of so much stupidity.

 

[seatownlowdown]

irvin is good at one thing, getting after the qb. he was far from a finished product at leo/de coming out of college, but he had serious upside with his 4.5 speed and agility. he gets off the ball so fast, and if he only had to focus on his rush moves, he could be a 12+ sack guy by now

i think carroll guessed wrong on this one. he shouldnt have tried to make irvin a linebacker, he is lost in coverage. probably part of the reason he converted to edge rusher in college. as athletically gifted as he is, honestly he thinks too much, reacts too slow, and makes poor decisions in coverage/space. hes a one trick pony, but honestly that trick is pretty damn good (rushing the passer). why not just accept that and let him do that?

edit: what jacknut said...

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Haha, Bruce Irvin is 2 games into his 3rd season. He's one of, if not the most athletic LBers in the NFL. .

Terrelle Pryor is one of the most athletic QB's in the NFL. Aaron Curry was graded out as the best athlete in the entire draft in 2009.

Athleticism doesn't mean crap if you also don't have the football IQ, work ethic and health to properly grow as football player. Irvin has all the potential in the world, and he has shown flashes.........but sorry as of now he's been a disappointment. I expect the #15 pick in the first round of a draft to be a major contributor in year #3.

 

[Jacknut16]

Maybe not worth the #15th overall pick, especially with hindsight, but he's definitely not a bad player.

A Pass rush specialist who had 2 sacks last year and can never beat his man one on one?

I would have, and Im serious, cut his ass yesterday if we had anyone else to go to. That play cost us significant time, and made the defense stay on the field in the most lopsided TOP game I have watched in a long time. It would have been 23-21 with the Hawks getting the ball in the 4th instead of 27-21, with more time remaining.

The guy is very near bust status, and to pull that stuff out of bounds, at that point in a road game.... WOW, just WOW.

To be fair, the Chargers were in clear field goal range. A successful attempt would have made it 26-21, still requiring a touchdown. I agree that we really, really needed off that field though, and that error could have very well made the difference in the outcome.

They scored a TD, so we would have received the ball down only 2 points 23-21 instead of being down 27-21 both times the offense got the ball back in the 4th Q.

The final score would have been 26-21 only because of the garbage time FG that San Diego kicked.

 

[Jacknut16]

irvin is good at one thing, getting after the qb. he was far from a finished product at leo/de coming out of college, but he had serious upside with his 4.5 speed and agility. he gets off the ball so fast, and if he only had to focus on his rush moves, he could be a 12+ sack guy by now

i think carroll guessed wrong on this one. he shouldnt have tried to make irvin a linebacker, he is lost in coverage. probably part of the reason he converted to edge rusher in college. as athletically gifted as he is, honestly he thinks too much, reacts too slow, and makes poor decisions in coverage/space. hes a one trick pony, but honestly that trick is pretty damn good (rushing the passer). why not just accept that and let him do that?

edit: what jacknut said...

He had 8 sacks as a rookie, but the Coaches werent impressed with him so we went and got Avril and Bennett.

He is fast yes, but you need to be fast and strong to get to the QB, or have some special moves which he just doesnt.

Pete and CO. have done great with the time, and the bitching about Irvin is just that, bitching. But still, the guy is just not an effective player.

 

[Jacknut16]

irvin is good at one thing, getting after the qb. he was far from a finished product at leo/de coming out of college, but he had serious upside with his 4.5 speed and agility. he gets off the ball so fast, and if he only had to focus on his rush moves, he could be a 12+ sack guy by now

i think carroll guessed wrong on this one. he shouldnt have tried to make irvin a linebacker, he is lost in coverage. probably part of the reason he converted to edge rusher in college. as athletically gifted as he is, honestly he thinks too much, reacts too slow, and makes poor decisions in coverage/space. hes a one trick pony, but honestly that trick is pretty damn good (rushing the passer). why not just accept that and let him do that?

edit: what jacknut said...

He had 8 sacks as a rookie, but the Coaches werent impressed with him so we went and got Avril and Bennett.

He is fast yes, but you need to be fast and strong to get to the QB, or have some special moves which he just doesnt.

Pete and CO. have done great with the time, and the bitching about Irvin is just that, bitching. But still, the guy is just not an effective player.