It's time to face it

[StoneCold]

a talent problem?

Bingo.

Other than Clowney, Wagner and Griffin, this defense is devoid of talent......and even these three are suspect at times.

You bring up KJ and Kendricks. They're both good LB's, but not great LB's. That's what we've got, 2-3 good defensive players surrounded by mediocre to bad defensive players, especially on the line. I mean, we must be literally the EASIEST defense to gameplan for.

- double team and chip Clowney every play
- throw a bunch of 7-10 yard outs and slants because of how much cushion Flowers has to give so he doesn't get burnt
- wait for us to get frustrated and start blitzing unsuccessfully and take shots downfield
- rinse and repeat

Our #1 pick had six snaps yesterday. Six........and he's been healthy all season.

What about Reed? Ansah hasn't produced as expected, but he's not without talent. Poona has also done well and Quinton has shown some flashes. McDougald was a Probowl alternate and was getting high marks for last years play. Blair has not talent? More like a green rookie.

I think you over state the lack of talent. Seems a combo of talent, experience and coaching.

 

[Fade]

I disagree with it being a talent issue. They are dolphins level bad statistically (YPP).

Clowney, Poona Ford, Lbers, Shaq Griffin, Blair, McDougald, Green, Reed.

They shouldn't be this bad. The scheme, and techniques they are instructing the backend to play is absolutely pathetic, and I cannot wait for this Nick Holt era to end.

 

[IndyHawk]

a talent problem?

Bingo.

Other than Clowney, Wagner and Griffin, this defense is devoid of talent......and even these three are suspect at times.

You bring up KJ and Kendricks. They're both good LB's, but not great LB's. That's what we've got, 2-3 good defensive players surrounded by mediocre to bad defensive players, especially on the line. I mean, we must be literally the EASIEST defense to gameplan for.

- double team and chip Clowney every play
- throw a bunch of 7-10 yard outs and slants because of how much cushion Flowers has to give so he doesn't get burnt
- wait for us to get frustrated and start blitzing unsuccessfully and take shots downfield
- rinse and repeat

Our #1 pick had six snaps yesterday. Six........and he's been healthy all season.

^^^^Good post. As I mentioned in another post this defense is the result of trading down in the draft to get multiple players in an attempt to get some LOB-type players to fall through the cracks. it didn't happen and we are left with too many mediocre players.

You need playmakers to win in the NFL and we don't have enough of them currently.

I and certain other always preached DEFENSE wins CHAMPIONSHIPS..
This used to be true UNTIL we started paying out these MASSIVE contracts..
NOW it's pick your POISON because your going to be weak SOMEWHERE..

There is another FACTOR which is the NFL has geared the RULES for OFFENSE..
So WHY pay for a defense?You just get the ball out quick and collect FLAGS..
I don't like it but I call it like it's going..I think the Hawks have a good chance as anyone..
But you won't see a year after year great defensive team like the Hawks had again..

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I disagree with it being a talent issue. They are dolphins level bad statistically (YPP).

Clowney, Poona Ford, Lbers, Shaq Griffin, Blair, McDougald, Green, Reed.

They shouldn't be this bad. The scheme, and techniques they are instructing the backend to play is absolutely pathetic, and I cannot wait for this Nick Holt era to end.

There's no way I can buy into any opinion or theory that a Pete Carroll led defense, a coach that has for over 30 years mastered the defensive side of the ball, and how to draft and develop players into a cohesive elite defense.

It's 100% talent and a 4-5 year run of below average drafting and acquiring free agents.

Guys like Jefferson, Reed, Jackson, Thompson, Hill, Flowers, Griffin, etc should be in their prime and balling out week in and week out....and they're not. Not even close.

 

[Fade]

a talent problem?

Bingo.

Other than Clowney, Wagner and Griffin, this defense is devoid of talent......and even these three are suspect at times.

You bring up KJ and Kendricks. They're both good LB's, but not great LB's. That's what we've got, 2-3 good defensive players surrounded by mediocre to bad defensive players, especially on the line. I mean, we must be literally the EASIEST defense to gameplan for.

- double team and chip Clowney every play
- throw a bunch of 7-10 yard outs and slants because of how much cushion Flowers has to give so he doesn't get burnt
- wait for us to get frustrated and start blitzing unsuccessfully and take shots downfield
- rinse and repeat

Our #1 pick had six snaps yesterday. Six........and he's been healthy all season.

^^^^Good post. As I mentioned in another post this defense is the result of trading down in the draft to get multiple players in an attempt to get some LOB-type players to fall through the cracks. it didn't happen and we are left with too many mediocre players.

You need playmakers to win in the NFL and we don't have enough of them currently.

I and certain other always preached DEFENSE wins CHAMPIONSHIPS..
This used to be true UNTIL we started paying out these MASSIVE contracts..
NOW it's pick your POISON because your going to be weak SOMEWHERE..

There is another FACTOR which is the NFL has geared the RULES for OFFENSE..
So WHY pay for a defense?You just get the ball out quick and collect FLAGS..
I don't like it but I call it like it's going..I think the Hawks have a good chance as anyone..
But you won't see a year after year great defensive team like the Hawks had again..

Their cap is fine though. The talent they let go was for attitude reasons.

Seattle will have $70M in space next offseason. Not even factoring in cap casualties such as Britt & KJ.

Seattle's problem the last half decade has been their failure to hit on their 1st rd picks, and not getting any good return on their free agency signings. And finally staying loyal too long to underperforming coaches.

Ziggy, Meyers, Collier, and Norton, being their latest issues. Going cheap at QB wouldn't solve these problems, only magnify them.

 

[knownone]

a talent problem?

Bingo.

Other than Clowney, Wagner and Griffin, this defense is devoid of talent......and even these three are suspect at times.

You bring up KJ and Kendricks. They're both good LB's, but not great LB's. That's what we've got, 2-3 good defensive players surrounded by mediocre to bad defensive players, especially on the line. I mean, we must be literally the EASIEST defense to gameplan for.

- double team and chip Clowney every play
- throw a bunch of 7-10 yard outs and slants because of how much cushion Flowers has to give so he doesn't get burnt
- wait for us to get frustrated and start blitzing unsuccessfully and take shots downfield
- rinse and repeat

Our #1 pick had six snaps yesterday. Six........and he's been healthy all season.

We don't really have a talent problem on defense; we have a talent problem in our pass rush. The lack of pass rush is exacerbated by the fact that we play a scheme that is largely dependent on the front 4 getting pressure. If they don't get pressure, you are asking LBs to hold up in zone coverage against receivers which is a tough task for even the greatest of LBs.

If we had an average pass rush, this defense has the talent to be one of the 10 best in the league. I think this bares out in our defensive stats:

- 8th in 3rd down defense
- 14th in adjusted pass defense
- 9th in run defense (non QB)
- 16th in run defense (w/QB)
- 27th in pressure %
- 24th in sacks

If this defense was devoid of talent, you'd think it would show up in places other than pass rush, but it hasn't. In fact, our defense is better in just about every category over last season. So how does a defense that has roughly the same personnel go from the 11th ranked defense in 2018 to 22nd in 2019? Easy, they go from the 11th ranked pass rush to the 27th ranked pass rush.

We have great players on the defensive line, but the only great player with a track record of consistent success as a pass rusher is Ansah. Unfortunately he has not looked like the same player this year. This dovetails into the Clark vs Clowney debate. Clowney is a great defensive end and one of the most disruptive in the league, but he's more of a cluster bomb than a heat seeking missile. He alone is not going to carry a pass rush. Clark doesn't have the overall impact on defense, but he was much better at pressuring the QB in orthodox ways, this leads to more consistent pressures which is easier for other members of the DL to play off of. In contrast, Clowney is so unorthodox that you don't really know where he'll be so he's harder to play off of. It seems like Clowney needs another elite pass rusher for his attributes to truly shine in the pass rush. And unless Ansah turns a corner, we don't have that guy on our roster.

TLDR: We have talent everywhere. We just don't have the right talent where we need it most.

 

[kf3339]

a talent problem?

Bingo.

Other than Clowney, Wagner and Griffin, this defense is devoid of talent......and even these three are suspect at times.

You bring up KJ and Kendricks. They're both good LB's, but not great LB's. That's what we've got, 2-3 good defensive players surrounded by mediocre to bad defensive players, especially on the line. I mean, we must be literally the EASIEST defense to gameplan for.

- double team and chip Clowney every play
- throw a bunch of 7-10 yard outs and slants because of how much cushion Flowers has to give so he doesn't get burnt
- wait for us to get frustrated and start blitzing unsuccessfully and take shots downfield
- rinse and repeat

Our #1 pick had six snaps yesterday. Six........and he's been healthy all season.

^^^^Good post. As I mentioned in another post this defense is the result of trading down in the draft to get multiple players in an attempt to get some LOB-type players to fall through the cracks. it didn't happen and we are left with too many mediocre players.

You need playmakers to win in the NFL and we don't have enough of them currently.

The trading down issue is very true. We give up the potential for a dominant all pro level player in the first round for more 3rd to 5th round picks almost every draft. We did it when we traded down to pick McDowell and Lano Hill in the 3rd. Would you not have had TY Watt as a DE/Leo instead? No, they went for the extra picks. We get two cute at draft time every year.

 

[xray]

7 games left...the season got shorter and tougher.

 

[Fade]

I disagree with it being a talent issue. They are dolphins level bad statistically (YPP).

Clowney, Poona Ford, Lbers, Shaq Griffin, Blair, McDougald, Green, Reed.

They shouldn't be this bad. The scheme, and techniques they are instructing the backend to play is absolutely pathetic, and I cannot wait for this Nick Holt era to end.

There's no way I can buy into any opinion or theory that a Pete Carroll led defense, a coach that has for over 30 years mastered the defensive side of the ball, and how to draft and develop players into a cohesive elite defense.

It's 100% talent and a 4-5 year run of below average drafting and acquiring free agents.

Guys like Jefferson, Reed, Jackson, Thompson, Hill, Flowers, Griffin, etc should be in their prime and balling out week in and week out....and they're not. Quote/



Pete has a lot on his plate. He isn't babysitting Norton.
Believe what you want, Norton will be gone at the end of the year, and like magic the defense will suddenly improve.

Seattle right now are statistically one of the 5 worst defenses in the NFL, and they have gotten worse on a near downward trend under Norton for 26 games. Norton is a bad DC, and I will gladly body anyone who thinks otherwise.

What is telling is the Seahawks are adding players into the lineup this year and they are still getting worse. Add Reed? Get worse. Add Blair? Get worse. Add whoever? They will continue to get worse.

You ca'nt have corners play outside leverage and bail immediately, with the nickel giving a 10 yd cushion, and expect anything but what you're seeing.

Also Pete's defense is Tampa 2, where you don't press the corners? Interesting.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

7 games left...the season got shorter and tougher.

Fire Pete

 

[IndyHawk]

I and certain other always preached DEFENSE wins CHAMPIONSHIPS..
This used to be true UNTIL we started paying out these MASSIVE contracts..
NOW it's pick your POISON because your going to be weak SOMEWHERE..

There is another FACTOR which is the NFL has geared the RULES for OFFENSE..
So WHY pay for a defense?You just get the ball out quick and collect FLAGS..
I don't like it but I call it like it's going..I think the Hawks have a good chance as anyone..
But you won't see a year after year great defensive team like the Hawks had again..[/quote]

Their cap is fine though. The talent they let go was for attitude reasons.

Seattle will have $70M in space next offseason. Not even factoring in cap casualties such as Britt & KJ.

Seattle's problem the last half decade has been their failure to hit on their 1st rd picks, and not getting any good return on their free agency signings. And finally staying loyal too long to underperforming coaches.

Ziggy, Meyers, Collier, and Norton, being their latest issues. Going cheap at QB wouldn't solve these problems, only magnify them.[/quote]
I'm not saying go cheap at QB ..That is what it is but that isn't our problem.
When I said massive contracts ..I meant across the NFL and a lot of it is
geared to the offensive side..You have your 2 well paid defensive players
and that is pretty much it..I love great D but those days are gone of seeing
that every week..
Chicks dig lots of offense.. :lol:

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Also Pete's defense is Tampa 2, where you don't press the corners? Interesting.

How can Pete when he's got one corner he barely trusts to press, another corner he doesn't trust at all, a rookie safety that's still making mistakes, and a gimpy safety that's a shell of his former self. Add in no dependable nickel corner to help those pressing safeties.............AND a non-existent pass rush.

Scheme? C'mon man. We've got the a bottom three in the league D-line, and a bottom five defensive backfield. This ain't scheme, Pete's proven he can build an elite defense with a talented roster.

Not. Talented.

 

[OrangeGravy]

a talent problem?

Bingo.

Other than Clowney, Wagner and Griffin, this defense is devoid of talent......and even these three are suspect at times.

You bring up KJ and Kendricks. They're both good LB's, but not great LB's. That's what we've got, 2-3 good defensive players surrounded by mediocre to bad defensive players, especially on the line. I mean, we must be literally the EASIEST defense to gameplan for.

- double team and chip Clowney every play
- throw a bunch of 7-10 yard outs and slants because of how much cushion Flowers has to give so he doesn't get burnt
- wait for us to get frustrated and start blitzing unsuccessfully and take shots downfield
- rinse and repeat

Our #1 pick had six snaps yesterday. Six........and he's been healthy all season.

We don't really have a talent problem on defense; we have a talent problem in our pass rush. The lack of pass rush is exacerbated by the fact that we play a scheme that is largely dependent on the front 4 getting pressure. If they don't get pressure, you are asking LBs to hold up in zone coverage against receivers which is a tough task for even the greatest of LBs.

If we had an average pass rush, this defense has the talent to be one of the 10 best in the league. I think this bares out in our defensive stats:

- 8th in 3rd down defense
- 14th in adjusted pass defense
- 9th in run defense (non QB)
- 16th in run defense (w/QB)
- 27th in pressure %
- 24th in sacks

If this defense was devoid of talent, you'd think it would show up in places other than pass rush, but it hasn't. In fact, our defense is better in just about every category over last season. So how does a defense that has roughly the same personnel go from the 11th ranked defense in 2018 to 22nd in 2019? Easy, they go from the 11th ranked pass rush to the 27th ranked pass rush.

We have great players on the defensive line, but the only great player with a track record of consistent success as a pass rusher is Ansah. Unfortunately he has not looked like the same player this year. This dovetails into the Clark vs Clowney debate. Clowney is a great defensive end and one of the most disruptive in the league, but he's more of a cluster bomb than a heat seeking missile. He alone is not going to carry a pass rush. Clark doesn't have the overall impact on defense, but he was much better at pressuring the QB in orthodox ways, this leads to more consistent pressures which is easier for other members of the DL to play off of. In contrast, Clowney is so unorthodox that you don't really know where he'll be so he's harder to play off of. It seems like Clowney needs another elite pass rusher for his attributes to truly shine in the pass rush. And unless Ansah turns a corner, we don't have that guy on our roster.

TLDR: We have talent everywhere. We just don't have the right talent where we need it most.

This^^^ is the real issue I think on D. The mix of talent at D-line doesn't compliment each other. I'd much rather have a couple experienced journeymen pass rushers that don't cost a lot, but have average to above average success getting to the QB. Right now we don't get there at all. Things would be drastically different if we could just add 3 or 4 more QB hits per game. It doesn't even need to overwhelming.

 

[evergreen]

We don't have the talent we used to at the right time for the talent. Young players have upside and can become better. Older players tend to decline more often than improve. Our last LOB defense in 2017 wasn't special anymore. It was past time to move on. Id rather have young players out there than older ones still getting burned. Maybe the young ones will get better. I for one remember how many pass interference calls the LOB used to get. Get the young guys out there! Now we have Ansah, a complete waste of money. Should've paid Coleman. That's who we're missing in the secondary. He only cost half of what we're wasting on Ansah. Griffen is doing just fine. We just played Mike Evans and Julio Jones like 2 of top 3 in the league. Plus both teams have other excellent receivers too. We got torched a bit too. We did make Tampa work for it though. But it's clear our best hope is to stiffen up in the red zone and force field goals. This D needs a total over haul next year.

 

[chris98251]

Our CB's have to learn about working the Refs, you have to get a respect level with them to some degree as well as a bit of a name recognition. Secondly there are so many new officials they have to learn to disseminate some between a foul and a NFL football, this isn't the Pac 12 or another division of college football.

Remember how Sherm did it, he made it a point to know the rules better then they did and although had his moments would calmly most times during TV time outs and or breaks take a moment to discuss with whomever made a call or after the penalty. Wilson does some of that on the offensive side.

 

[Spin Doctor]

"We have talent everywhere"

I don't think our defense is nearly as talented as we think. I'm not seeing the "talent" angle. We're definitely playing below our potential on defense, but even with a good defensive coordinator I think this is just an average unit. It reminds me of a Mike Holmgren defense headed by Ray Rhodes.

The biggest problem I would argue is our safety position. Blair has been playing better than Tedric Thompson, but he is still inexperienced and thus far has been a mixed bag. I don't think he is suited to play the single high safety role, I don't think Pete thinks so either, as we've haven't been running it, where as before it was a defining characteristic of the Seahawks. I think we messed up big time by not drafting Darnell Savage.

Pete seems to lacks confidence in his safeties, and for good reason. I think it is coloring how we're running the defense as a whole.

Pressure is an issue as well. Clowney is the only guy that is getting us any pressure. He is also making some big plays on the line of scrimmage. The guy is the most double teamed player in the NFL. I don't get the people complaining about him. He's eating up the opposing team blockers and none of our other guys are able to do anything with it. Ansah, Collier, Reed, and Jackson are huge disappointments. They seem absent in all respects. They're essentially traffic cones masquerading as defensive players.

Our linebackers are also playing bad even when they aren't being put in bad positions (which they are at the moment). K.J Wright looks very bad out there, Kendricks is very hit or miss, and in general has had poor tackling this year, and Wagner looks like an average linebacker this year. He also seems a bit slower than I remember him in years past. Our main back up, Barton also looks just "meh".

The defense has a lot of different holes in just about every unit. Our best course of action is to play a bend but don't break style, which is kind of what Pete is going for at this moment. Condense the field, and make it harder to score for the other team.

 

[xray]

The Hawks will have to play with the defense they have assembled and coached . There is some good talent scattered around the defense ; but not enough to hold any decent opponents offense in check . Any more wins this season will depend on Wilson's arm . This has got to keep Carroll awake at night considering that he is supposed to be a defensive guru . Good or bad ; he owns this defense . Blaming players is BS IMO .

 

[SoulfishHawk]

They are 7-2 with plenty of room to improve. Face it :lol:

But the OP makes a good point, this team is clearly much better on Offense. And the play calling was solid on offense on Sunday imo. He gets enough crap, sometimes it is ok to give credit where it's due.
As far as blaming Pete because the D sucks? Come on, there's a LOT more to it. Like the players not making the plays and being out of position. And the fact that Norton has been brutal this year.

 

[Mad Dog]

The Hawks will have to play with the defense they have assembled and coached . There is some good talent scattered around the defense ; but not enough to hold any decent opponents offense in check . Any more wins this season will depend on Wilson's arm . This has got to keep Carroll awake at night considering that he is supposed to be a defensive guru . Good or bad ; he owns this defense . Blaming players is BS IMO .

That's a nuanced take. /sarcasm

Why can't you blame players and coaches? Rarely is it only one issue that leads to poor play. It can be a mix of personnel and coaching. Ultimately the Head Coach and FO is responsible for the product out there but there are some unpredictable player factors like injuries that can turn an effective player group into a challenged player group.

TBH I think all of us at the beginning of the year recognized the offense as the strength of the team and weren't counting on a great defensive showing. I think what's been worrisome is the defense getting worse as it got healthier. We have a healthy DL rotation and can't take advantage of that depth late in games. Reed has regressed. Ansah is a shell. Clowney is double teamed. Woods and Poona are run stuffers only. Green hasn't stepped up. Jackson is a JAG. Only guy playing above his head is Jefferson. We need Reed, Clowney and Green to really get going and play to their best potential.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

This^^^ is the real issue I think on D. The mix of talent at D-line doesn't compliment each other. I'd much rather have a couple experienced journeymen pass rushers that don't cost a lot, but have average to above average success getting to the QB. Right now we don't get there at all. Things would be drastically different if we could just add 3 or 4 more QB hits per game. It doesn't even need to overwhelming.

75% of our line are vets, so not sure what you're talking about. Reed, Ansah, Clowney, Ford.......all guys with 4-5 years experience +.

Problem is we have no twitch, inside or out. Not one D-lineman can get off the edge even a little. Which is why every QB we've played good or not is having clean pockets and career passing days.