LB vs DE

Hawkstorian

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With Jordyn Brooks back at practice, I'm looking at the roster and I have to admit after 50 years watching football I don't know who's a DE and who's a LB any more. We have guys like Mafe, Taylor, Nwosu, Bush, Hall, Jones, and even now safeties are pretending to be linebackers and I don't even know what's a 3-4 or a 4-5 or a 5-2 or-2-12 or any of the rest. We're a 3-4 with 4-3 concepts or a 4-3 with 3-4 concepts or a 2-11 with 8-4 concepts. Who the heck knows. Guys are playing somewhere between 1 and 5 gaps.

I actually read up on the difference between a 1 tech and a 9 tech, and thought a I had that sorted out, but I went to Snopes and it turns out the claims were considered false.

Please, don't try to explain it to me, because I'm hopeless. I'd just like to know I'm not the only one struggling to keep up.
 
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QWERTY

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DE's don't cover.

Lb's do cover.

But the Hawks do use DE's to cover and IT NEVER WORKS.
 

sutz

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Well, if you can't figure it out, I'm not gonna try. :LOL:

We seem to be in an era when concepts like that don't neccessarily mean what they did 5 years ago. I agree, it's a bit confusing.
 

Mick063

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3-4 verse 4-3 verse nickel verse dime verse short yardage.

Each formation comes with its own terminology, references, and personnel responsibilities, yet there is still considerable overlap.

It really doesn't really matter how the positions are labeled; it is more about who is responsible for what.

Regardless of formation, generally speaking: People still have to provide deep hashmark and seam help. People still have to cover "hook, curl, and flat" in the short zone. People still have to pressure the quarterback. People still have to set the edge and turn runners back into pursuit. People still have responsibility for specific gap control in the run game. People still have to disguise their intentions for the QB pre snap read.

It is a matter of first defining the alignment, and then associating the proper responsibility to any given position, with the alignment responsibility defining the terminology of how a given position is referenced (the name given to that position).

In short, there is no answer to your question without first declaring the formation. That is the starting point. Further, the advent of the "zone blitz" has basically wiped out any given absolutes with respect to defining pass coverage (by position). Even a nose tackle can drop into a short zone. Hence, "LB's cover, but DE's don't cover" isn't even a helpful definition anymore (unless you are talking in general about what typically happens). Everything nowadays is an attempt to deceive the quarterback's eyes. The more that teams implement "positionless" players, the more convoluted the terminology becomes. The basic responsibilities listed above, however, never go away.

On Edit: I failed in a big way to address field position in my response. There is probably no bigger factor that influences defensive formation choice than field position. Think of it like this: The more field that lies ahead of an offense, or in other words, the more open field that an offense has to work with, then the more options that are available to that offense (one must also take into account the fear of turning the ball over when close to your own goal line). Regardless, as the field "shrinks" so do the offensive options. For example, when in the red zone, the defense can eliminate the responsibility of deep pass coverage. This frees up the safeties for other roles like double coverage, run blitzes, or more manageable zone responsibility. Gap control takes on more importance for the linebackers as the safeties assume responsibility for the LB's short zones. There is far less danger in playing man coverage, because the available receiver routes have shrunk to just a few. When man coverage becomes less dangerous, then blitzing unexpected players becomes more advantageous.

Field position management leads to the "bend but don't break" philosophy. If you don't give up the "big play" touchdown, then you actually have decent odds of forcing a field goal if the opponent reaches your red zone because opposing offensive options diminish in scope as the field shrinks. Further, sustaining multi-play, incremental offensive drives can be easily stalled with unforced offensive errors such as penalties or a multitude of other mental mistakes. All of this plays a huge role in how a defense will choose its formation.
 
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Throwdown

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In a 3-4 the edges have to drop into coverage. Your DE’s are 280ish - 300 they’re in the shits. Your edges are your traditional 4-3 ends, now that’s just in base. Other packages it becomes a little more different based on numerous things.
 

FrodosFinger

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DE's don't cover.

Lb's do cover.

But the Hawks do use DE's to cover and IT NEVER WORKS.
Tell that to Bruce Irving. Possibly the best cover DE they’ve had ever. Clowney had a pick 6 a few years ago in cover. It works when a running back does a rub or a tight end a quick out but yeah it is situational
 

Maelstrom787

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Bruce was an LB. ;)
He was kinda both (in practice), if we're sticking with just terms the average NFL fan understands without getting into the messy X and O stuff.

I'm sure most average observers (not tape freaks) would look as his alignment and classify him as a defensive end, because at SAM in the 4-3 under, he lined up at the LOS outside of the tackle.

1692159244203

In this screenshot, Bruce is playing the SAM position in the Seattle 4-3 under, but it's an on-ball position. Clemons is playing LEO on the other side. Both guys at the LOS on the edge, although Bruce is notably standing up.

The terminology that we all grew up on is leading to a lot of confusion when looking at modern defenses. The classic 4-3 as shown in old diagrams with 2 tackles, 2 base ends, and 3 off-ball linebackers doesn't show up as often anymore.
 

balakoth

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DE's don't cover.

Lb's do cover.

But the Hawks do use DE's to cover and IT NEVER WORKS.
That was because of last 2 years scheme and in the past was VERY RARELY.....................

Why does everyone here utilize a small sample size to "define" a NORM... that doesn't exist?
 

balakoth

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Oh wait.. not understanding how football works but still .. yapping along the line.. 10 4
 

Mad Dog

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He was kinda both (in practice), if we're sticking with just terms the average NFL fan understands without getting into the messy X and O stuff.

I'm sure most average observers (not tape freaks) would look as his alignment and classify him as a defensive end, because at SAM in the 4-3 under, he lined up at the LOS outside of the tackle.

View attachment 60201

In this screenshot, Bruce is playing the SAM position in the Seattle 4-3 under, but it's an on-ball position. Clemons is playing LEO on the other side. Both guys at the LOS on the edge, although Bruce is notably standing up.

The terminology that we all grew up on is leading to a lot of confusion when looking at modern defenses. The classic 4-3 as shown in old diagrams with 2 tackles, 2 base ends, and 3 off-ball linebackers doesn't show up as often anymore.

Take Clemons hand off the dirt and you’ve essentially got a 3-4.
 

Maelstrom787

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Take Clemons hand off the dirt and you’ve essentially got a 3-4.
It's close. Virtually indistinguishable from a quick view. The main variations in Seattle's most recent defense from their more traditional Carroll stuff were less alignment, but alignment is what everyone tends to use to define defenses. It's easier than getting into the nitty gritty with gaps and run fits and etc etc.
 

Seattle Person

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A lot of fans I think label modern defenses in either 3-4 or 4-3 boxes. Mick nailed it. It depends on the offense's formations and what they declare pre-snap. The reality is you don't spend much time in base defenses anymore. You rarely see an even front on defense or offense.

A lot of teams are in the mold of you just need athletes nowadays to cover the modern offenses. Especially now when you can have 3-4 WRs in a play. You need DBs on the field to match up with those receivers. Teams also realize you need DBs on the field to match up with TEs.

So what the Hawks are doing sort of goes along with what the NFL is doing on offense. We now have a bunch of safeties that can match up with either WRs or TEs.
 
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sutz

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The talking heads on the TV box don't help either. They're stuck with using the traditional labels for the positions of the "starters," another term that is essentially meaningless any more. 🤷‍♂️
 
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