Max Kellerman on Seahawks

[FlyingGreg]

If its another season with the same results then I would say he's spot on.

How many more seasons do we need to see? This team hasn't gotten past the Divisional Round of the playoffs since the 2014 season. I know we are spoiled, but the bar has been set very high in the Carroll era.

Something isn't working. It's not all Russ, for sure.

 

[flv]

If its another season with the same results then I would say he's spot on.

How many more seasons do we need to see? This team hasn't gotten past the Divisional Round of the playoffs since the 2014 season. I know we are spoiled, but the bar has been set very high in the Carroll era.

Something isn't working. It's not all Russ, for sure.

For a team that plays in the Pacific Time zone to have playoff success they'll need to be the #1 or #2 seed. Without it they'll likely have to win on the road in the Eastern Time zone in back-to-back weeks. It's rare for a Pacific Time team to achieve that in the regular season against mediocre opponents. It's nearly impossible to do it in the playoffs against top quality opponents.

 

[toffee]

I guess my question is, how are we judging whether a QB's prime (or career) has been wasted or not?

Peyton Manning only won 1 Super Bowl with the Colts, did the Colts waste his prime/career?

Brett Favre only won 1 Super Bowl with the Packers, did the Packers waste his prime/career?

Drew Brees only won 1 Super Bowl with the Saints, did the Saints waste his prime/career?

Aaron Rodgers has only won 1 Super Bowl with the Packers, have the Packers wasted his prime/career?

Is the criteria that unless a QB has won multiple Super Bowls with a team, then that team has wasted that QB's prime/career and nothing else matters? Because if that is the case, every single team has wasted every single QB's career in the last 20 years with the only exceptions being Brady and the Patriots, Roethlisberger and the Steelers, and *gulp* Eli Manning and the Giants.

Also, P. Manning, Favre, Brees, and Rodgers are undoubtedly Hall of Fame QB's, and are almost certainly in the conversation for top ten, or at least top 20 greatest QB's of all time. So, we're saying these guys all had some of the best careers in the history of the NFL while at the same time their careers were wasted? I don't know, it's almost like maybe there might be other factors to consider besides just how many Super Bowls they won when deciding whether a QB's career has been wasted or not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This.

Plus all of these QB'S happen to play at a time in which the greatest of all time happen to come through. Seattle hasn't wasted anything.

Agreed.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

 

[LTH]

Max Kellerman is unrealistic.. there are a handful of QBs that can even match what Wilson has already done and he has several more years... will he go to another SB with the Seahawks? maybe maybe not but the one thing I do know this guy is just writing an opinion piece... ok what ever he dioes know aNYMORE THAN WE DO...

lth

 

[jamescasey1124]

Russ is on a hall of fame trajectory here, and if you consider that he is still in his low 30s than there's only one other QB in NFL history with a clearly better career. A player that is competing for the 2nd best career of all time is so clearly not being wasted that any arguments to that effect should start with "I know this sounds like nonsense, but..."

I agree with your conclusion, but Russell is not currently in the conversation for 2nd best career of all time. For perspective, at the same age, Joe Montana had 3 Super Bowls rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, and a league MVP. Similarly, Peyton Manning already had 4 MVPs. The argument for Russ seems to be based solely on wins and efficiency, but that's not going to age well when young QBs like Mahomes are on pace to shatter those numbers.

Russ needs to make noise in the playoffs or reel off several more MVP-caliber seasons to get back into that conversation.

This is why the team vs individual player concept is dumb. You cant compare great QBs with rings and championships. That is a team statistic. Montana had those accolades because the 49ers maintained the best team in the 80's. Not because Montana was a baller alone. He was, but the team was better overall compared in the nfl. Look at the individual seasonal stats. Russell blows montana out of the water and I didnt even google search that. It's just know facts. If this were the case than Terry Bradshaw after brady, then starr, unitas, montana and aikman would be the best qbs all time. No way!!! In the same account...we might as well discount Jim Kelly because he alone took the Bill's to 3 super bowls but didnt win them. Non sense.

 

[jamescasey1124]

Russ is on a hall of fame trajectory here, and if you consider that he is still in his low 30s than there's only one other QB in NFL history with a clearly better career. A player that is competing for the 2nd best career of all time is so clearly not being wasted that any arguments to that effect should start with "I know this sounds like nonsense, but..."

I agree with your conclusion, but Russell is not currently in the conversation for 2nd best career of all time. For perspective, at the same age, Joe Montana had 3 Super Bowls rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, and a league MVP. Similarly, Peyton Manning already had 4 MVPs. The argument for Russ seems to be based solely on wins and efficiency, but that's not going to age well when young QBs like Mahomes are on pace to shatter those numbers.

Russ needs to make noise in the playoffs or reel off several more MVP-caliber seasons to get back into that conversation.

This is why the team vs individual player concept is dumb. You cant compare great QBs with rings and championships. That is a team statistic. Montana had those accolades because the 49ers maintained the best team in the 80's. Not because Montana was a baller alone. He was, but the team was better overall compared in the nfl. Look at the individual seasonal stats. Russell blows montana out of the water and I didnt even google search that. It's just know facts. If this were the case than Terry Bradshaw after brady, then starr, unitas, montana and aikman would be the best qbs all time. No way!!! In the same account...we might as well discount Jim Kelly because he alone took the Bill's to 3 super bowls but didnt win them. Non sense.

 

[knownone]

Russ is on a hall of fame trajectory here, and if you consider that he is still in his low 30s than there's only one other QB in NFL history with a clearly better career. A player that is competing for the 2nd best career of all time is so clearly not being wasted that any arguments to that effect should start with "I know this sounds like nonsense, but..."

I agree with your conclusion, but Russell is not currently in the conversation for 2nd best career of all time. For perspective, at the same age, Joe Montana had 3 Super Bowls rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, and a league MVP. Similarly, Peyton Manning already had 4 MVPs. The argument for Russ seems to be based solely on wins and efficiency, but that's not going to age well when young QBs like Mahomes are on pace to shatter those numbers.

Russ needs to make noise in the playoffs or reel off several more MVP-caliber seasons to get back into that conversation.

This is why the team vs individual player concept is dumb. You cant compare great QBs with rings and championships. That is a team statistic. Montana had those accolades because the 49ers maintained the best team in the 80's. Not because Montana was a baller alone. He was, but the team was better overall compared in the nfl. Look at the individual seasonal stats. Russell blows montana out of the water and I didnt even google search that. It's just know facts. If this were the case than Terry Bradshaw after brady, then starr, unitas, montana and aikman would be the best qbs all time. No way!!! In the same account...we might as well discount Jim Kelly because he alone took the Bill's to 3 super bowls but didnt win them. Non sense.

The flaw in your logic is the direct comparison of stats between eras. If we use that logic, Brady is 8th all-time and sandwiched between Dak Prescott and Kirk Cousins in terms of QB efficiency.

The better way to analyze QB's between eras is to judge them relative to their peers in that particular era. For example, during Joe Montana's era, no other QB comes close to his efficiency or playoff accolades. Can the same be said of Wilson? No. He's never won MVP, and his stats are not astronomical relative to his peers. He's been a top 5 QB for most of his career, but he's never been the defacto #1 QB in the league, and without that distinction, he is not better than Montana. Seriously, Russell has zero First-Team All-Pros; what's the argument for him being better than Peyton Manning, who has 7 First-Team All-Pros and 5 MVPs. Just going off age, Russell would need to win an MVP in 5 out of the next 6 seasons to match Manning.

As of right now, he'll probably finish in the top 10 all-time, but he needs more post-season success to even come close to being in the conversation for the top 5. His combined accolades do not currently compare to those guys.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Well, Max, believes Seattle FO has failed Wilson because Wilson can do no wrong and he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

No, Wilson, is not without his flaws.

Wilson holds onto the ball rather long when doesn’t always throw the ball to the receiver, when the receiver is also open (maybe of a smaller window), but, he rather throw the ball away.

Why he doesn’t throw the ball to the receiver can be argued but some believe Wilson rather protect his QBR so he takes the sack instead because that doesn’t hurt his QBR. He then uses the fact that got sacked to then criticizes and throws the FO and his offensive line under the bus and says he doesn’t get protected.

If you are the FO and the offensive line and you watch the film and see this happen when Wilson could have thrown the ball, yet, this guy blames you, you get upset, too.

Wilson is no angel as he portrays and he is definitely not perfect.

Contrary to what these analyst believe Seattle does or does not do for Wilson, Wilson, himself can make better decisions and also take a pay cut if he wants “talented” players.

Since Wilson has dreams of being an “owner” he needs to stack his chicken all he can so, a pay cut is not in the cards.

Wilson needs to shoulder some blame too.

When you point fingers at others, you better point a few your own way as well.

 

[flv]

...Since Wilson has dreams of being an “owner” he needs to stack his chicken all he can so, a pay cut is not in the cards...

That sounds like a Hell of an auto-correct.

 

[Chapow]

...
Wilson needs to shoulder some blame too.

When you point fingers at others, you better point a few your own way as well.

Dude, Wilson always shoulders plenty of the blame. Basically every single time throughout his career that he's had to answer "what went wrong" type of questions, he always talks about how he needs to do better. Despite having generally piss poor pass protection for pretty much his whole career in Seattle, this past February was the first time he's ever publicly criticized his OLine. That criticism that has everyone clutching their pearls because it was so shocking? “I think that we’ve gotta get better up front,” Wilson said “And it’s not just [useful in the passing game]. It controls the game, as you watched the other night.” And then later “Like any player, you never want to get hit,” he said. “That’s the reality of playing this position—ask any quarterback who wants to play this game. … I’ve been sacked almost 400 times, so we’ve got to get better. I’ve got to find ways to get better, too.”

Like pretty much everyone else, I don't think he should have said that publicly, but I can certainly understand his frustration after 8 frickin years of shitty pass protection. Pretty much every Seahawks fan has been complaining for years about the OLine. The topic has been talked about literally hundreds of times on this very board and every single time the consensus conclusion is that the OLine needs to get better. You know, exactly what Wilson said. And just like he always does, he also said that he needs to get better too, which is him shouldering some of the blame. Wilson has been shouldering the blame his whole career while basically never criticizing anyone else until these comments that came very shortly after he watched the Super Bowl in which Patrick Mahomes was running for his life the entire game, while Tom Brady went pretty much untouched and unpressured the entire game.

Russ has been shouldering far, FAAAARRRR, more than his fair share of the blame since he's been here. God forbid he says what everyone else has been saying for years while also saying at the same time that he needs to get better too.

 

[chris98251]

...
Wilson needs to shoulder some blame too.

When you point fingers at others, you better point a few your own way as well.

Dude, Wilson always shoulders plenty of the blame. Basically every single time throughout his career that he's had to answer "what went wrong" type of questions, he always talks about how he needs to do better. Despite having generally piss poor pass protection for pretty much his whole career in Seattle, this past February was the first time he's ever publicly criticized his OLine. That criticism that has everyone clutching their pearls because it was so shocking? “I think that we’ve gotta get better up front,” Wilson said “And it’s not just [useful in the passing game]. It controls the game, as you watched the other night.” And then later “Like any player, you never want to get hit,” he said. “That’s the reality of playing this position—ask any quarterback who wants to play this game. … I’ve been sacked almost 400 times, so we’ve got to get better. I’ve got to find ways to get better, too.”

Like pretty much everyone else, I don't think he should have said that publicly, but I can certainly understand his frustration after 8 frickin years of shitty pass protection. Pretty much every Seahawks fan has been complaining for years about the OLine. The topic has been talked about literally hundreds of times on this very board and every single time the consensus conclusion is that the OLine needs to get better. You know, exactly what Wilson said. And just like he always does, he also said that he needs to get better too, which is him shouldering some of the blame. Wilson has been shouldering the blame his whole career while basically never criticizing anyone else until these comments that came very shortly after he watched the Super Bowl in which Patrick Mahomes was running for his life the entire game, while Tom Brady went pretty much untouched and unpressured the entire game.

Russ has been shouldering far, FAAAARRRR, more than his fair share of the blame since he's been here. God forbid he says what everyone else has been saying for years while also saying at the same time that he needs to get better too.

Taking the heat or blame is what he does to be a leader for the team and his offense, thats who he is and the PC thing to do.

Correcting his part is what we have not seen since most the issues have been the same ones since Bevell was here. He has got better, but he still favors things rather then use the entire field and throw a receiver open rather then wait till they clear. Which falls into the other issue being in the pocket longer and taking sacks or getting O line penalties.

 

[AgentDib]

Russell is not currently in the conversation for 2nd best career of all time. For perspective, at the same age, Joe Montana had 3 Super Bowls rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, and a league MVP. Similarly, Peyton Manning already had 4 MVPs.

I admit to not finding MVP remotely interesting and think that post season success is largely team driven. I do agree that a couple of the young QBs today could end up having very good careers themselves and that it can be tricky to compare across eras.

In my view if you look at numbers that QBs can actually control then Wilson's career thus far is competitive.

32 year old Montana - 6.51 ANY/A 63.2% comp 92.0 QB Rating 206 TDs 29k yards
32 year old Wilson - 6.99 ANY/A 65.1% comp 101.7 QB Rating 288 TDs 40k yards
32 year old Manning - 7.06 ANY/A 64.4% comp 94.7 QB Rating 350 TDs 46k yards
32 year old Rodgers - 7.51 ANY/A 65.1% comp 104.1 QB Rating 278 TDs 34k yards
32 year old Brees - 6.73 ANY/A 65.9% comp 94.0 QB Rating 289 TDs 41k yards

 

[Tinamedina]

Part coaching part Russ.
The coaching has been Marty Schottenheimer like in consistently getting to the playoffs but not enough to win it all at least in the last 6 years.
If Russ really wants to win then he should not seek top $ as he hurts the teams ability to pay top talent at other positions.

Sorry, but the "russell wilson gets paid too much" routine went out the window a couple season's ago. Russell wilson's not even the highest paid qb right now, not even top 3. and guess what, those other qb's have a better team AND oline.

 

[BASF]

Russell is not currently in the conversation for 2nd best career of all time. For perspective, at the same age, Joe Montana had 3 Super Bowls rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, and a league MVP. Similarly, Peyton Manning already had 4 MVPs.

I admit to not finding MVP remotely interesting and think that post season success is largely team driven. I do agree that a couple of the young QBs today could end up having very good careers themselves and that it can be tricky to compare across eras.

In my view if you look at numbers that QBs can actually control then Wilson's career thus far is competitive.

32 year old Montana - 6.51 ANY/A 63.2% comp 92.0 QB Rating 206 TDs 29k yards
32 year old Wilson - 6.99 ANY/A 65.1% comp 101.7 QB Rating 288 TDs 40k yards
32 year old Manning - 7.06 ANY/A 64.4% comp 94.7 QB Rating 350 TDs 46k yards
32 year old Rodgers - 7.51 ANY/A 65.1% comp 104.1 QB Rating 278 TDs 34k yards
32 year old Brees - 6.73 ANY/A 65.9% comp 94.0 QB Rating 289 TDs 41k yards

With the receivers getting mugged back then, Montana's completion percentage was remarkable. For example, the top completion percentage in '84 would tie for twenty-fourth in 2018. The sixth best in '84 would be bottom four in the league in '18. Montana would probably be above seventy percent every single season with the rule changes.

Wilson is absolutely one of the top ten QBs of all time, but second is pushing it.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

If its another season with the same results then I would say he's spot on.

Are the Packers wasting Aaron Rodger's career?
Did the Saints waste Drew Brees career?
Are the Chiefs wasting Patrick Mahomes career because they lost the SB last year?

You could literally say this about every top 10 QB save for Brady in the entire league. It's a dumb metric and statement to say just because Russell doesn't have more SB wins..........which is VERY VERY hard to do for any QB and franchise.

No QB's career is being wasted when he's perennially a top 5 QB in every statistical category and is someday going to put on a gold jacket.

It's lame lazy sports talk fodder.

 

[Jville]

It's just more parlor tricks from "1st Take" feeding off their gullible and willing viewing subjects.

This comes to mind as a depiction of "1st Take" blow hards ...............

 

[Chapow]

If its another season with the same results then I would say he's spot on.

Are the Packers wasting Aaron Rodger's career?
Did the Saints waste Drew Brees career?
Are the Chiefs wasting Patrick Mahomes career because they lost the SB last year?

You could literally say this about every top 10 QB save for Brady in the entire league. It's a dumb metric and statement to say just because Russell doesn't have more SB wins..........which is VERY VERY hard to do for any QB and franchise.

No QB's career is being wasted when he's perennially a top 5 QB in every statistical category and is someday going to put on a gold jacket.

It's lame lazy sports talk fodder.

I made this exact same argument in this thread on Tuesday. He didn't respond to my post, but who knows? Maybe he'll respond to yours? Doubt it, but you never know.

 

[pittpnthrs]

If its another season with the same results then I would say he's spot on.

Are the Packers wasting Aaron Rodger's career?
Did the Saints waste Drew Brees career?
Are the Chiefs wasting Patrick Mahomes career because they lost the SB last year?

You could literally say this about every top 10 QB save for Brady in the entire league. It's a dumb metric and statement to say just because Russell doesn't have more SB wins..........which is VERY VERY hard to do for any QB and franchise.

No QB's career is being wasted when he's perennially a top 5 QB in every statistical category and is someday going to put on a gold jacket.

It's lame lazy sports talk fodder.

Yet he cant get past the 2nd round of the playoffs like the others mentioned. Is that on the perennial top 5 QB or the head guy controlling things? Its on the white haired guy and thats why i'm saying Wilson is being wasted. Wilson is good enough to get the team to the postseason, but just cant overcome Carrolls incompetence once there. Those are wasted years and it wont change until Pete steps down. Sadly Wilson will leave before that happens.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I made this exact same argument in this thread on Tuesday. He didn't respond to my post, but who knows? Maybe he'll respond to yours? Doubt it, but you never know.

Sorry, I guess I just dont pay much attention to you.

Again, the difference between Rodgers, Brees, and Mahommes are that they play for organizations and head coaches that can get past the 2nd round of the post season and do. Not all of the time but they certainly arent stuck in the vicious cycle that Wilson is. Russ not only has to fight the other team, he has to fight horrendous game plans too. Thats not going to change as long as Carroll is here. It'll just be more rinse and re-pete.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

If its another season with the same results then I would say he's spot on.

Are the Packers wasting Aaron Rodger's career?
Did the Saints waste Drew Brees career?
Are the Chiefs wasting Patrick Mahomes career because they lost the SB last year?

You could literally say this about every top 10 QB save for Brady in the entire league. It's a dumb metric and statement to say just because Russell doesn't have more SB wins..........which is VERY VERY hard to do for any QB and franchise.

No QB's career is being wasted when he's perennially a top 5 QB in every statistical category and is someday going to put on a gold jacket.

It's lame lazy sports talk fodder.

Yet he cant get past the 2nd round of the playoffs like the others mentioned. Is that on the perennial top 5 QB or the head guy controlling things? Its on the white haired guy and thats why i'm saying Wilson is being wasted. Wilson is good enough to get the team to the postseason, but just cant overcome Carrolls incompetence once there. Those are wasted years and it wont change until Pete steps down. Sadly Wilson will leave before that happens.

What round of the playoffs do you require Russell get past in order not to blame Pete for wasting his career?

Divisional round? Conference Championship?

Is there a specific number of times he needs to do that for you to give Russell some onus and blame for his own career failings?

Or do we just blame Pete every year we don't win a SB. It's a lazy argument and doesn't take into account other factors that are very important, most importantly Russell himself. I don't love what Pete and John did from 2014-2019 personnel and drafting wise, but if we're saying Russell's career has been wasted, then some of that blame needs to fall on Russell.

We can argue about percentage of blame, but for me it's at least 50%. Dude stunk for most of the 2nd half of the season last year, including an abysmal four game stretch where he turned the ball over six times........AFTER Pete supposedly "let Russ cook."