Out Coached....

[pmedic920]

We get outcoached every week. Glad you see the light.

Well my "out coached" thoughts go way beyond what we see/don't see on the GameDay field.

I'm thinking it's much deeper.
Drafting
Personnel management
Preparing for specific opponents
Cap space/ contract management
Etc Etc.
You know, the whole thing.

Up thread it's mentioned, that we've lost several coaches. I'm thinking that it's a valid possibility, some of those coaches may have been bigger losses than we/I knew at the time.

Again, I'm very appreciative of what the FO has done but I'm not seeing the evolution that this game requires.

You have to keep up, or you get left behind.
The Seahawks set the tone for a couple years. Other teams even emulated us.

Now?
Now those other teams are pulling ahead it seems.

I love what we've had the last few years, I've grown accustomed to it.

I don't want to lose it.


Edit:
Yes I know that I've included "management" stuff but for the sake of this conversation, I look at it as all under the same umbrella.

 

[Blitzer88]

We were and ave been out coached so far this year in most aspects of he game. And as HawkFan said, we used to be so good at halftime adjustments, but now I don't even see any adjustments made.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

This isn't a new thing, Pete is routinely out coached.

That's not his strength, the X's and O's game management adjustment part. His strengths are on the evaluation, preparation and motivational side of coaching. On that, he's one of the best of all time.

But even on these things, I see it slipping away from him. He's now for 2-3 years allowed the distractions and nonsense creep into the locker room and spill out onto the field and cause some VERY undisciplined play. Bad fits, gap, overrunning plays, out of position, and outbursts.

That's not a Pete Carroll team.

 

[Hawks46]

Well I think we need to change some philosophies.

We did exactly what I called we would do, which is try to attack the Titans' strength which is their DL, with our biggest weakness, which is our run game. Then when we got down in a hurry and go to the passing game where we tore them up.

I'm not sure why the Seahawks are so stubborn. The best coach of our era (and possibly ever) doesn't give a crap how he wins a game as long as he wins it. His name is Bellichick.

About 5-6 years ago, the Patriots traveled to Minnesota to play. This was the Vikings with the Williams Wall and they had the best DL in the league and the best run defense in the league by about 10 ypc over the next team. What does Bill do? Starts the game going 5 wide and attacks their average secondary. They won that game by 2 TD's if I recall correctly. They also ended up the game running the ball for damn near 100 yards in the 4th quarter.

My question is: why don't we just start out attacking a team where they are weak ? Why do we have to have the same game plan every damn week on offense ? Why does Bevell always seem like a 3 year old trying to jam a square peg in a round hole ?

Against our defense, the Titans had a good game plan. But defensively, you have to have missed assignments, mistakes, and other things go wrong for a team to score 33 on you. We missed a ton of tackles and seemed out of position after halftime. The Titans made great halftime adjustments and Richard couldn't counter.

I'm luke warm on Richard as a DC at this point.

 

[Cyrus12]

We get outcoached every week. Glad you see the light.

Well my "out coached" thoughts go way beyond what we see/don't see on the GameDay field.

I'm thinking it's much deeper.
Drafting
Personnel management
Preparing for specific opponents
Cap space/ contract management
Etc Etc.
You know, the whole thing.

Up thread it's mentioned, that we've lost several coaches. I'm thinking that it's a valid possibility, some of those coaches may have been bigger losses than we/I knew at the time.

Again, I'm very appreciative of what the FO has done but I'm not seeing the evolution that this game requires.

You have to keep up, or you get left behind.
The Seahawks set the tone for a couple years. Other teams even emulated us.

Now?
Now those other teams are pulling ahead it seems.

I love what we've had the last few years, I've grown accustomed to it.

I don't want to lose it.


Edit:
Yes I know that I've included "management" stuff but for the sake of this conversation, I look at it as all under the same umbrella.

Again, well stated post. I thought of something that no one here ever likes to talk about...yes the curse of SB 49. Those guys are all still here and after this game things started to regress. IMO there has to be some resentment in the locker room either against players or coaches for what happened there. I know some will call BS on this but I don't think they have ever fully recovered from that game.

 

[pmedic920]

Bump.

I know it's kinda a chicken shit move to bump my own thread but I've got to believe, Besides some of the "fire so and so" crowd, others have to be thinking that changes are in order.

Fact is, I have no idea what Pete controls vs what he delegates to his subordinates.
I get it, he's ultimately responsible but what really needs to change?

Would firing an OC or D.C really "fix" anything if they are following orders?

Does anyone here know how much is actually the fault of a particular staff member. I don't, that's for sure, and I have a hard time pointing fingers when I don know who to point them at.

I think we need some changes but based on past success, I have no clue as to what "truly" needs to change.

Anybody?

 

[cymatica]

Well I think we need to change some philosophies.

We did exactly what I called we would do, which is try to attack the Titans' strength which is their DL, with our biggest weakness, which is our run game. Then when we got down in a hurry and go to the passing game where we tore them up.

I'm not sure why the Seahawks are so stubborn. The best coach of our era (and possibly ever) doesn't give a crap how he wins a game as long as he wins it. His name is Bellichick.

About 5-6 years ago, the Patriots traveled to Minnesota to play. This was the Vikings with the Williams Wall and they had the best DL in the league and the best run defense in the league by about 10 ypc over the next team. What does Bill do? Starts the game going 5 wide and attacks their average secondary. They won that game by 2 TD's if I recall correctly. They also ended up the game running the ball for damn near 100 yards in the 4th quarter.

My question is: why don't we just start out attacking a team where they are weak ? Why do we have to have the same game plan every damn week on offense ? Why does Bevell always seem like a 3 year old trying to jam a square peg in a round hole ?

Against our defense, the Titans had a good game plan. But defensively, you have to have missed assignments, mistakes, and other things go wrong for a team to score 33 on you. We missed a ton of tackles and seemed out of position after halftime. The Titans made great halftime adjustments and Richard couldn't counter.

I'm luke warm on Richard as a DC at this point.

This has been one of the most frustrating things over the years. So many games we refuse to attack a weakness. If a team has a starter out, it seems like our coaching staff treats the backup exactly the same.

 

[pmedic920]

Well I think we need to change some philosophies.

We did exactly what I called we would do, which is try to attack the Titans' strength which is their DL, with our biggest weakness, which is our run game. Then when we got down in a hurry and go to the passing game where we tore them up.

I'm not sure why the Seahawks are so stubborn. The best coach of our era (and possibly ever) doesn't give a crap how he wins a game as long as he wins it. His name is Bellichick.

About 5-6 years ago, the Patriots traveled to Minnesota to play. This was the Vikings with the Williams Wall and they had the best DL in the league and the best run defense in the league by about 10 ypc over the next team. What does Bill do? Starts the game going 5 wide and attacks their average secondary. They won that game by 2 TD's if I recall correctly. They also ended up the game running the ball for damn near 100 yards in the 4th quarter.

My question is: why don't we just start out attacking a team where they are weak ? Why do we have to have the same game plan every damn week on offense ? Why does Bevell always seem like a 3 year old trying to jam a square peg in a round hole ?

Against our defense, the Titans had a good game plan. But defensively, you have to have missed assignments, mistakes, and other things go wrong for a team to score 33 on you. We missed a ton of tackles and seemed out of position after halftime. The Titans made great halftime adjustments and Richard couldn't counter.

I'm luke warm on Richard as a DC at this point.

This has been one of the most frustrating things over the years. So many games we refuse to attack a weakness. If a team has a starter out, it seems like our coaching staff treats the backup exactly the same.

I'll go as far as to say, it seems to my untrained eye, that we go into every game with the same plan.
I truly don't see that we "game plan" for any specific opponent.

My mind could be changed with facts/tape but I just don't see it, as of now.

 

[JimmyG]

I've watched a few games where I felt our coaches got whipped up a bit. This wasn't one of them. This is a game where our front 7 got their hind ends spanked like tantrum throwing toddlers.

Yeah, I don't think this is a great example of a game where we were out-coached.

The defense gave up a 75-yard run to Demarco Murray. That's not bad coaching, that's bad execution.

The defense gave up a 55-yard catch-and-run reception TD to Rishard Matthews. That's not bad coaching, that's bad execution.

Wilson, on a pivotal 2nd down in the 4th, ran backwards literally 18-yards in an attempt to avoid a sack and racked up an intentional grounding call, effectively killing the drive (and maybe the game). That's not bad coaching, that's bad execution (taking a 6-yard sack is better than losing 18 yards).

Once again, the coaches are scapegoated.

 

[West TX Hawk]

Bump.

I know it's kinda a chicken shit move to bump my own thread but I've got to believe, Besides some of the "fire so and so" crowd, others have to be thinking that changes are in order.

Fact is, I have no idea what Pete controls vs what he delegates to his subordinates.
I get it, he's ultimately responsible but what really needs to change?

Would firing an OC or D.C really "fix" anything if they are following orders?

Does anyone here know how much is actually the fault of a particular staff member. I don't, that's for sure, and I have a hard time pointing fingers when I don know who to point them at.

I think we need some changes but based on past success, I have no clue as to what "truly" needs to change.

Anybody?

It's an interesting discussion as to how much Pete actually orchestrates. Some say like many good leaders, he delegates much to the coordinators and Cable. Others argue everything we see on the field is exactly the way Pete has designed or envisioned. We know he has final say on everything involving the team including final approval on every transaction.

Pete's schemes and ideologies in football have proven successful but at what point does he finally look in the mirror and admit to himself..."I need to make changes to this team and my system. And I need to adapt to what other teams are doing and evolve because for whatever reason it's no longer working. And do I really have the best coaches surrounding me to implement these needed changes?" Or is Pete too stubborn or arrogant to change at all?

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Bevell and Cable couldn't out coach Paul Wulff and Tyrone Willingham.

Lol, that's harsh, man!

What makes it funny is, it's probably true!! Lol...

Damn, that really sucks for us.

 

[AROS]

I've been a big supporter of our coaching staff.
I'm very appreciative of what the current FO has done for the Seahawks.

But I'm finally convinced that we (the Seahawks) are being out coached on multiple levels.

I've admitted before, and I'll do it again now, I'm not an Xs & Os expert.

I'm at best a "cheerleader" type fan but I can even see that the current system won't work moving forward.

I think there is too much tape available, I think the other teams have figured us out.

I'm not sure what the answer is but I know that something needs to change if we want to remain a contender.

The Titans have grown, they are certainly an "up and comer" but they aren't a better team than the Seahawks are. They don't have more talent.

I think we are being out coached.

Sure there are many that have been saying the same thing for a long time, I'm just going on the record here for myself.

Not saying anybody needs to be fired, I'm saying that the Seahawks need to start doing something different if they want to "be there" in the end.

It's my humble opinion.
YMMV

It's humble and an accurate opinion - in my opinion - my friend.

I am like you. I am no football scholar. I struggle with the intricacies of the X's and O's. But I have excellent vision. Like you, I can tell when things just aren't working. Now the Kearly's of the world might be able to break down precisely what is breaking down. But what we see doesn't take a rocket scientist to know something needs to change.

I've had my fun in recent years with the Fire Bevell angle. I've also been in the camp that thinks Cable is overrated perhaps, or at least his tenure should have dried up by now. They say for both coaches and players, a change of scenery can often be that spark to reignite a career. I think Cable fits that bill. To be perfectly fair it's not like he's been given even an average OL to work with through the years.

Pete's philosophy is what marries him to Bevell and Cable. He won't fire either because both represent extensions of his philosophy by proxy. I wouldn't call them "Yes Men" necessarily, but the three of them certainly conspire to a set paradigm come Hell or high water.

I shudder to think that what we are witnessing is the natural and slow death of the Pete Carroll Era. Is it possible that the Seahawks will never win another Super Bowl under him? Highly possible. In fact, the way things look these days I would say most probable.

Fat contracts, fat personalities, fat expectations...This isn't the Lean and Mean Seahawks of 2012. XLIX really popped our tire and we have yet to recover. Lynch is gone and no longer can we rely on a power running offense and great defense to put fear into our opponents. Teams know intimately how Russell has NO protection, and our RB by committee approach is smoke and mirrors.

Pete stubbornly will not abandon the philosophy that got him here and I can understand that. Problem is, personnel has changed, situations have changed. For Pete to lack the foresight to adapt to our offensive issues may very well be the death blow. While I still believe this team will make 10-6, 11-5 on talent alone this year, there's no question the writing is on the wall.

Either adapt to the weaknesses or suffer the fate of a once championship team that is no longer feared.

 

[pmedic920]

I've watched a few games where I felt our coaches got whipped up a bit. This wasn't one of them. This is a game where our front 7 got their hind ends spanked like tantrum throwing toddlers.

Yeah, I don't think this is a great example of a game where we were out-coached.

The defense gave up a 75-yard run to Demarco Murray. That's not bad coaching, that's bad execution.

The defense gave up a 55-yard catch-and-run reception TD to Rishard Matthews. That's not bad coaching, that's bad execution.

Wilson, on a pivotal 2nd down in the 4th, ran backwards literally 18-yards in an attempt to avoid a sack and racked up an intentional grounding call, effectively killing the drive (and maybe the game). That's not bad coaching, that's bad execution (taking a 6-yard sack is better than losing 18 yards).

Once again, the coaches are scapegoated.

I get it, I made the post following a loss to the Titans but I'm not talking specifically about that game.

My thoughts are much more in general terms.

Hopefully for the sake of this conversation we won't focus on the loss to the Titans.

I'm serious when I say that it seems we go into every game with the same plan.

I don't see that we "game plan" for specific opponents.

I do think that other teams have figured us out, they come into the games with a plan to beat us, and I don't see us making many, if any, changes to counter strike.

I'm not seeing the evolution that I feel it takes to consistently win at the higher levels.

I said in another thread that I still see us winning a bunch of games, I still think we win the division.

I don't see us winning in the playoffs (high level), especially if it's on the road.

My "out coached" is a broader statement than the Titans game.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Yes we get outcoached on a regular basis. Why do you think we lose to the Rams all the time? Does anybody really think the Rams are better than us? People will say we dont match up well with the Rams when in truth its our tired philosophy that doesnt match up well with them. While other teams would plan around the Rams front Dline and try something different, Pete will stick to his script and run right at them. Thats what frustrates me the most. Petes plan works when you have the guys to execute it, but we dont and havent for the last couple of years. There is where the problem lies.

 

[hawker84]

I agree, the product is stale...the days of we'll just keep it vanilla and our superior talent will keep us winning are over...teams know what we do well and where we struggle, they've adapted so either we adapt to their adaptation or we die...and losses and barely eeked out wins over bad teams are piling up, we're slowly dying. It's time for the coaching staff to earn it's paycheck

Bingo.......

I agree 100% with the OP. Change is needed. Whatever that change may be, it's time to make it after this season.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I wish I could argue, they seem to be WAY too stubborn in doing it their own way. Instead of adjusting and adapting.
But, their way has been pretty successful. But switching things up is needed.

 

[Madrid Hawk]

When, after every single loss, Pete parrots the "We are a running team. We are going to run the ball. We just have to make a few small tweaks here and there and we'll be fine."..............I just shudder.

Really, Pete?

But honestly, I am looking for this team to go on a run, starting with the Colts. The O-line looked at-least-average-bordering-on-decent against Tennessee. They gave RW protection, he just missed throws. Until he didn't.

A non-gassed D, average-to-decent protection for the QB. RW hitting the WR's, the WR's catching the ball, and Baldwin not out injured = Recipe for Success. And not just against the hapless Colts, either.

If they can maintain the above Recipe, they'll start to click. Once they start to click, they'll find a rhythm. Once they find a rhythm, they'll start to become great again. And once they become great again..............we'll all feel GOOOOOOD!!!

Unless, of course, it goes the other direction. If that happens............frowny face icon.

 

[hgwellz12]

Not much more to add. I TOTALLY agree Pete plans for every game in the same manner that people who pack luggage exactly the same every time, no matter where in the world they are going and for how long. It's a personality trait. Like "ehh, I will just wing it..."
NO, Pete. You're not going to Scottsdale for 3 days at the Hyatt Regency in March. It's Thanksgiving and you're spending 2 weeks in Buffalo!
Pack. Accordingly. for Christ's sake.

I think he's just getting tired. I get that he's the" youngest 70 year old on earth!" crap, but, it's crap.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

All of this will be forgotten when they are in the playoffs this year. However, come on Pete, stick to the run a little more. Carson was getting some good carries in.

 

[johnnyfever]

All of this will be forgotten when they are in the playoffs this year. However, come on Pete, stick to the run a little more. Carson was getting some good carries in.

Will it be forgotten we we get embarrassed again in the playoffs when we finally play a decent well coached team?

Tripping into the playoffs and then getting blasted is a colossal waste of the talent on this roster, but if your goal is just making the playoffs, then you might be in luck...maybe. we are 3rd out of 4 teams in our division right now, and after next weekend season is 1/4 over. Rams are looking good and have an easy schedule, so no guarantees this year. They are improving and have and are making the tough choices to take the division, whereas we continue our regression.

There is an old saying- "if you are coasting, you are going downhill"