Out Coached....

[bigskydoc]

My question is: why don't we just start out attacking a team where they are weak ? Why do we have to have the same game plan every damn week on offense ? Why does Bevell always seem like a 3 year old trying to jam a square peg in a round hole ?

In Dec, 2015, I posted this about Bevell. It is every bit as true today as it was then, although I'm not convinced that it is entirely his fault.

It doesn't take the All-22 to see that Bevell refuses to take advantage of an identified weakness in the defense. He will hold it in his pocket for a time in the game when "he really needs it". Okay that is more of a style thing, but IMHO when you identify a weakness you hit it again and again and again and again and again until the defense has to adjust and opens up other weaknesses.

I actually think that Bevell is an average to slightly above average offensive coordinator who is somewhat handcuffed by other coaches on the team. While I think Cable is the primary culprit here, Carroll's philosophy also shares some of the fault. I would be really interested in seeing Bevell as the offensive coordinator on a team with a decent offensive line, and a less conservative philosophy. I was hoping he would take over for Shanahan in Atlanta, as I think he would be a good fit, and it would give him the best chance to secure a head coaching gig at some point.

At times, we have seen the Hawks identify, and pick apart, another team's weakness. We have seen Wilson unleashed to work his magic. I really do think Bevell has a large part of the credit here. He also has his bone-headed moments, and lacks situational awareness. However, if he was allowed/ able to consistently attack weaknesses in other teams, the bone-headed mistakes wouldn't matter nearly so much. (Mistakes matter a lot less when you are up by 3 scores then when you are playing to a single score finish).


On the defensive side, I think the coaches are doing a great job. There is only so much scheming and preparing that you can do to overcome worn out players. I don't think you can judge the defense by the performance in Tennessee. After logging back to back weeks of brutally tiring playing time, and two long trips, they then had to play in grueling heat. These guys were simply physically and mentally exhausted. It's the same thing we saw with Chip Kelly's defenses in Philadelphia and SF. Really difficult to evaluate "formations and plays" when your players are too exhausted to execute. I think the defensive performance in weeks 1 and 2 should put to rest any concerns regarding that coaching tree. Yes, we still don't have the answer at SLB, but improvements at RCB allow us to scheme around this with Chancellor and Thomas. We have seen a lot more of Thomas near the line of scrimmage this year, even on a free safety blitz. He is freed up to do this because of these improvements.


Which leaves us with Cable, who I think is the lynchpin of the Hawk's failure over multiple seasons. He is directly, and primarily, responsible for the two biggest weaknesses of this team, the running game and the offensive line.
We have thrown so many draft picks and free agency acquisitions into both areas, and we have gotten progressively worse each year, in both areas. Cable has been unable to put a line on the field that allows decent runners to have success. It took a Marshawn Lynch to make the running game look good (even he couldn't succeed in making the line look good). We had a brief run of success with Rawls, when Wilson and the passing game were setting records, and opening things up for the running game. Otherwise, we really haven't even seen adequacy from these two facets of our attack.


While I don't think Carroll is at risk of losing his job, nor do I think he has seen his last deep playoff run, I do think his philosophy is costing the team. Under Carroll, you have to play mistake free ball to win, and your players have to be better than their opponent at every position. We aren't going to scheme around our intrinsic weaknesses to beat you, we are going to show our hand and dare you to beat us. There is minimal margin for one or two defensive errors in a game. This conservative, close to the vest, philosophy gives you the product that we are seeing on the field. Artificially inflated stats in a game we are destined to lose. See Wilson's stat line from the Tennessee game for example.


So, that's my 5,000 foot overview of the coaching staff. Not getting to specific on X's and O's (not that I'm particularly great at that anyway), just a sense of where the major coaching facets are. I'm not generally a fire this or that guy kind of person, but in this case, I think the evidence is pretty clear that Cable is seriously holding this team back. He has no proven track record of success except when he had one of the most historically, physically dominant backs pounding opposing defenses into submission.

 

[AVL]

We have always gotten out coached in extreme heat, even in the "glory" days.

I agree pretty much with the op.

 

[lukerguy]

It seems to simple to blame it all on the Oline, but in my opinion that's the only thing wrong. There's nothing wrong with our run D when not tired. As you can see from the first half, the defense played nearly perfect- then they got gassed from essentially playing the two full games in terms of TOP.

The problem with the OLINE sprinkles down to the whole team. I don't think we need to change philosophy around wanting to be a team who pounds the ball and controls the clock, but I do think we do need to change philosophy on how we pound the ball. I think Cable needs to go, and not because I think he's a bad coach. He's a very talented line coach, but the problem is he has near autonomy in making line decisions and he's a terrible talent evaluator.

He used to be able to "coach up" players when we had longer practice periods, but now that the training camp schedule is so condensed, he isn't able to do what he used to be able to do with lesser lineman. Since he's done it before, he doesn't see his own blind spot and neither does PC/JS (or at least they hadn't this off season).

You must get rid of Cable after this season, even if the line improves, like they always do. We need to have a more workable unit for the first half, because otherwise we say goodbye to home field, and goodbye to SB.

Just my thoughts..

 

[bigskydoc]

He used to be able to "coach up" players... Since he's done it before...

But has he really done it before? And that is an honest question, not an attack on the position. I have been going back and trying to find where Cable has had success with linemen who either failed, or were weak, prior to joining the team, or failed after leaving the team, and I really can't find many. He's been gifted an absolute cornucopia of players, and one or two gems have emerged.

There have been a select few who have gone on to second contracts, but this seems more the process of natural selection, than the product of an amazing coach. Off the top of my head, we have only had a handful of successful linemen during his tenure, despite throwing more draft picks at it than any other team. Giacomini and Unger (both came in before Cable), Okung Carpenter, Sweezy, and Britt (who was horribly misused for his first two years)

I'm looking for why Cable has this reputation of being a great developmental coach, and I'm not finding evidence of it.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Previous games have zero to do with how they will do this year in the playoffs. Why do you bother watching Johnny if you're just assuming that they will get smoked in the playoffs? :?

 

[RussB]

Completely agree. Pete refuses to adjust to anything and make any changes, he will continue running his old philosophy into the ground until it doesnt work anymore and then some. Thats what hes doing now, no new schemes on offense or defense and refusal to protect the franchise QB.

Its gotten old now, teams know how to beat this defense, and know how to shut down this offense. Offenses like the falcons pick these zones apart with ease.

Its time for a change, pete wont adapt.

 

[StoneCold]

I'm not sure it's being out coached. I do think Pete has what he likes and in the early games he works with his coaches and players to make it work. But I do think he is willing to make adjustments, but he first wants to see if they can make it work the "Pete" way. He's not likely to give up in the first few games or make big changes at halftime. Evidence half of 2015 when we went pass happy and Russell was killing it with the quick game. If it's not working, and Pete determines it's not working because these players are not capable, then by game 5 or 6 I think we'll see adjustments.

We are 1-2 and admittedly struggling, but I think it's way premature to say the Pete era is closing.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Well, we see the "genius" Arians get out coached all the time. Nobody seems to say a word about it.
Clearly their stubborn nature and not adjusting like other teams to has an impact on this team.

 

[Foghawk]

Well, we see the "genius" Arians get out coached all the time. Nobody seems to say a word about it.
Clearly their stubborn nature and not adjusting like other teams to has an impact on this team.

Arians is the leagues best biscuit salesman though.

 

[lukerguy]

He used to be able to "coach up" players... Since he's done it before...

But has he really done it before? And that is an honest question, not an attack on the position. I have been going back and trying to find where Cable has had success with linemen who either failed, or were weak, prior to joining the team, or failed after leaving the team, and I really can't find many. He's been gifted an absolute cornucopia of players, and one or two gems have emerged.

There have been a select few who have gone on to second contracts, but this seems more the process of natural selection, than the product of an amazing coach. Off the top of my head, we have only had a handful of successful linemen during his tenure, despite throwing more draft picks at it than any other team. Giacomini and Unger (both came in before Cable), Okung Carpenter, Sweezy, and Britt (who was horribly misused for his first two years)

I'm looking for why Cable has this reputation of being a great developmental coach, and I'm not finding evidence of it.

Since he took a college defensive tackle who was terrible his first 8 games then ended up signing a 4 year 21MM contract.

Breno was terrible before Cable, good with him, and now terrible again, but then again both those players were under old CBA with more practices.

I am not a Cable apologist- i think he should be fired, but only because of personnel decision and not enough time to develop line, you need to draft and sign good lineman....not develop anymore.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Good point on Arians :irishdrinkers:

 

[bigskydoc]

Since he took a college defensive tackle who was terrible his first 8 games then ended up signing a 4 year 21MM contract.

Breno was terrible before Cable, good with him, and now terrible again, but then again both those players were under old CBA with more practices.

I am not a Cable apologist- i think he should be fired, but only because of personnel decision and not enough time to develop line, you need to draft and sign good lineman....not develop anymore.

The Big Russian was done in by a back injury. Sweezy did convert successfully, but I'll see your success and raise you defensemen Schwenke, Sokoli, Nowak, and Pericak, and TE Gilliam. I think the jury is still out on Fant. Impressive transition there if he becomes a NFL quality OT.

Perhaps, like you say, this is due to CBA training camp issues, but I would turn that around and say that if Cable is the magician he is reputed to be, he should be able to tell that it is going to take more time to "coach these guys up" then we are allotted in the preseason. We do see improvements over the course of the year, but then always have major regression to the start of the next season. I'm just not convinced that he is the training magician that he is reputed to be

 

[GeekHawk]

Previous games have zero to do with how they will do this year in the playoffs. Why do you bother watching Johnny if you're just assuming that they will get smoked in the playoffs? :?

That's right. The Browns are Superbowl-bound. Previous games have nothing to do with future games.

 

[Jville]

Bump.

I know it's kinda a chicken shit move to bump my own thread but I've got to believe, Besides some of the "fire so and so" crowd, others have to be thinking that changes are in order.

Fact is, I have no idea what Pete controls vs what he delegates to his subordinates.
I get it, he's ultimately responsible but what really needs to change?

Would firing an OC or D.C really "fix" anything if they are following orders?

Does anyone here know how much is actually the fault of a particular staff member. I don't, that's for sure, and I have a hard time pointing fingers when I don know who to point them at.

I think we need some changes but based on past success, I have no clue as to what "truly" needs to change.

Anybody?

Paul Allen mandates consensus building. I am absolutely certain of Paul's mandate. Which staff member has the most influential voice in any given decision varies by situation and subject. A recent example was when they drafted Chris Carson. Pete Carroll was worried that another team would draft Carson. But, John Schneider was confident he would be there in the 7th round. So in that case, the consensuses was weighted toward John's opinion. It is an example of the kind of give and take that can thrive a community of mutual respect.

I think consensus building is how they honor Paul Allen. It is what they strive for with every endeavor.

So ironically, with consensus building, finger pointing is pointless. I'm comfortable with the thought that this consensus building organization knows what it is doing and has a winning formula. The proof is in what other organizations are studying, saying and replicating. The annual Seahawk challenge can be described as that of maintaining pace with the attrition ...... while adding new wrinkles. I'm fully prepared to witness growing pains in September ..... every year. It is a necessary part of the process of annual renewal. It is the Seahawk cycle of life.

 

[StoneCold]

Previous games have zero to do with how they will do this year in the playoffs. Why do you bother watching Johnny if you're just assuming that they will get smoked in the playoffs? :?

That's right. The Browns are Superbowl-bound. Previous games have nothing to do with future games.

Surely you're not comparing the Hawk's to the year in and year out incompetence that is the Browns? It's been two years sine we were in the Super Bowl. When was the last time the Browns were in the Super Bowl? The answer is never, though they did win some AFC championships before the SB was created.

 

[StoneCold]

Bump.

I know it's kinda a chicken shit move to bump my own thread but I've got to believe, Besides some of the "fire so and so" crowd, others have to be thinking that changes are in order.

Fact is, I have no idea what Pete controls vs what he delegates to his subordinates.
I get it, he's ultimately responsible but what really needs to change?

Would firing an OC or D.C really "fix" anything if they are following orders?

Does anyone here know how much is actually the fault of a particular staff member. I don't, that's for sure, and I have a hard time pointing fingers when I don know who to point them at.

I think we need some changes but based on past success, I have no clue as to what "truly" needs to change.

Anybody?

Paul Allen mandates consensus building. I am absolutely certain of Paul's mandate. Which staff member has the most influential voice in any given decision varies by situation and subject. A recent example was when they drafted Chris Carson. Pete Carroll was worried that another team would draft Carson. But, John Schneider was confident he would be there in the 7th round. So in that case, the consensuses was weighted toward John's opinion. It is an example of the kind of give and take that can thrive a community of mutual respect.

I think consensus building is how they honor Paul Allen. It is what they strive for with every endeavor.

So ironically, with consensus building, finger pointing is pointless. I'm comfortable with the thought that this consensus building organization knows what it is doing and has a winning formula. The proof is in what other organizations are studying, saying and replicating. The annual Seahawk challenge can be described as that of maintaining pace with the attrition ...... while adding new wrinkles. I'm fully prepared to witness growing pains in September ..... every year. It is a necessary part of the process of annual renewal. It is the Seahawk cycle of life.

Bumper Sticker!

Boom!

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Previous games mean nothing for THIS team. Who is talking about the Browns?

 

[hawk45]

Since he took a college defensive tackle who was terrible his first 8 games then ended up signing a 4 year 21MM contract.

Breno was terrible before Cable, good with him, and now terrible again, but then again both those players were under old CBA with more practices.

I am not a Cable apologist- i think he should be fired, but only because of personnel decision and not enough time to develop line, you need to draft and sign good lineman....not develop anymore.

The Big Russian was done in by a back injury. Sweezy did convert successfully, but I'll see your success and raise you defensemen Schwenke, Sokoli, Nowak, and Pericak, and TE Gilliam. I think the jury is still out on Fant. Impressive transition there if he becomes a NFL quality OT.

Perhaps, like you say, this is due to CBA training camp issues, but I would turn that around and say that if Cable is the magician he is reputed to be, he should be able to tell that it is going to take more time to "coach these guys up" then we are allotted in the preseason. We do see improvements over the course of the year, but then always have major regression to the start of the next season. I'm just not convinced that he is the training magician that he is reputed to be

Yeah I definitely question the success rate of the cute conversion projects.

Where I cut Cable a micron of slack - esp concerning regressing at each season start - is that even though we've thrown a lot of draft picks at him, 2 years in a row we let 2 starters walk which caused 3/5 or more of the players to be playing new positions due to required shuffling. It was Carpenter/Unger one year. Then Okung/Sweezy the next.

At the time I was okay with it (except Okung) because none of us wanted to overpay. In hindsight it has been a disaster.

Back to Cable's ability to coach players up, I have my doubts that we will ever see him draft/coach/produce a single tackle worth a crap who isn't can't-miss Okung. If we don't ship 2 firsts or whatever it takes to get a stud tackle in FA or move up in the draft we are hosed IMO. I expect we will burn another season next year hoping a recovering-from-injury George Fant - the lowest graded LT last year - can be an answer.

 

[StoneCold]

Previous games mean nothing for THIS team. Who is talking about the Browns?

GeekHawk, not you.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

cool, I was confused, but that happens often :lol: