Poll- Pete Carroll: Great motivator, great coach, both?

[AROS]

It's an antiquated and archaic opinion to think the only way to coach football anymore is being a Bill Parcells type that uses fear and negative reinforcement to get the best out of your players.

btw, the reason we get guys like Clowney to come here is EXACTLY because of the player friendly culture and environment that Pete has built here. It's why most trade rumors involve Seattle, the entire league has taken notice that this is a great place to play.

Yes, yes and yes. Pete uses positivity and truly cares for his players and who are we to argue with the results since he's been hired? Yes some fat egos may tire of the messaging after some years but they get shipped out eventually before they become true cancers in the locker room. We all may have a soft spot in our hearts for Patera, respect and admire Knox and Holmgren, but Pete has given this fanbase its first ever Lombardi and for that alone will always be loved by myself and many 12's around the world.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It's an antiquated and archaic opinion to think the only way to coach football anymore is being a Bill Parcells type that uses fear and negative reinforcement to get the best out of your players.

btw, the reason we get guys like Clowney to come here is EXACTLY because of the player friendly culture and environment that Pete has built here. It's why most trade rumors involve Seattle, the entire league has taken notice that this is a great place to play.

Yes, yes and yes. Pete uses positivity and truly cares for his players and who are we to argue with the results since he's been hired? Yes some fat egos may tire of the messaging after some years but they get shipped out eventually before they become true cancers in the locker room. We all may have a soft spot in our hearts for Patera, respect and admire Knox and Holmgren, but Pete has given this fanbase its first ever Lombardi and for that alone will always be loved by myself and many 12's around the world.

But even if you drill down on the negative feedback some of the players like Sherman and Doug gave as to why they didn't like Pete's culture, it centered around their feeling that Russell wasn't held to the same critical standard as the rest of the players.

So what have we hard the last couple of years since Schotty got here? That Pete and Schotty have been more critical of Russell, and even publicly stating when Russell hasn't played as well as he could have.

So doesn't that show growth as a HC for Pete? That he does internalize these sorts of things and tries to change?

We bust Pete's balls for not changing, but I do think he changes when he thinks he needs to.

 

[Chukarhawk]

BOTH, obviously. You don't accidentally win games in the NFL.

Or does the TALENT win them?

for real? or are you playing devils advocate? Go ask Jeff Fischer about having talent and not winning shit.
Were a very young team and that means growing pains. We get the defense squared away and we will be back in the OWL hunt.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

Is Carroll losing the team?

 

[Tusc2000]

You have no idea what goes on in that locker room and/or what the players truly think about Pete.
They respect him, and it's obvious. The ones who didn't...….magically got shipped off.
Players historically LOVE playing for Pete. You don't have to scream in a guy's face to get your point across. It's 2019, not 1975. He allows players to be who they are, in fact he embraces it. Not many coaches do that. It has worked for him for DECADES, College AND in the NFL. And if you actually think that he doesn't lay down the law when it's needed, you're sadly mistaken.

^^^ This.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Is Carroll losing the team?

Not only that, the team has no heart. Dark times my friend, dark times indeed.

 

[pittpnthrs]

But even if you drill down on the negative feedback some of the players like Sherman and Doug gave as to why they didn't like Pete's culture, it centered around their feeling that Russell wasn't held to the same critical standard as the rest of the players.

So what have we hard the last couple of years since Schotty got here? That Pete and Schotty have been more critical of Russell, and even publicly stating when Russell hasn't played as well as he could have.

So doesn't that show growth as a HC for Pete? That he does internalize these sorts of things and tries to change?

We bust Pete's balls for not changing, but I do think he changes when he thinks he needs to.

So basically, the premier talent that Pete got rid of was right all along. Its nice that Pete's finally changing, but its a day late and a dollar short.

 

[Chukarhawk]

LOL what premier talent did Pete get rid of that wasn't an obvious locker room cancer?

 

[AgentDib]

I would separate game management from game planning for the purposes of this discussion. Pete is well regarded around the league as an excellent defensive game planner. It's his defense and he adapts it well to the personnel he has at the time. He's also good at evaluating personnel and if you doubt his activity in the front office then you should really watch the draft cam on draft day, or even just hear him talk about why he personally likes Quandre Diggs and jumped at the opportunity to bring him in. If you think Pete can't be strict then look up LenDale White.

It is true that Pete's game management can have mixed results. Often I think he genuinely just gets it wrong, usually when he's particularly fired up about something or trusts his defense more than he should. Every coach goes by gut feel to some degree but I think Pete does so more than average.

That being said, there are a couple of scenarios when I think fans can get it wrong too.

- Team motivation. Pete is often thinking about the impact on team morale, whether it's challenging a bad call, wanting to go back to a play/player that failed previously, or going for it/punting it away. Burning a first half timeout on a challenge with a 10% chance of success really isn't that bad of a decision, there's a chance it could work and if not then Pete's still demonstrating that in his view the player did make or prevent the big play in question.

- Impact on the future. A challenge can also affect how things are officiating going forwards - maybe there isn't enough contact to overturn the call, but there is enough that the referee will be influenced to watch more closely for it next play. Similarly, a failed play could still set up a successful play later on in the game.

- Bad decision vs. bad outcome. I bet we all know the fan who thinks we should never use an empty set, pass sideways, or do anything but press coverage on defense. People remember bad outcomes more than they remember good outcomes, but Pete's job is to keep track of everything and make the best call for the game situation. Sometimes good decisions turn out poorly.

 

[knownone]

Part of being a great coach is being a great motivator. These are not two separate entities. I suppose it would be fair to ask if Pete is great motivator or a great strategist / schematic genius, but then you'd have to come to terms with the fact that almost half the teams in the league run a variation of Pete's defense.

I would look past the shallow implications of 'motivator', and say that Pete is a great culture builder and defensive innovator. He's won 76% of his games which is second only to Belichick during that time. The next closest is Mike Tomlin at 65%. Literally everything points to him being a great coach!

 

[Sports Hernia]

I've been criticizing Pete's X's and O's and schemes for 4-5 years now, so no for me he's strictly just a great motivator and elite organizational manager/president. No one can deny Pete's processes and the way he goes about running a football team. One of the greatest of all time on that front.

But coach on the field? No, not for a while now. IMO he could help his cause by giving up more control to his coordinators and Russell for the gameplanning and on field situational playcalling..............which IMO is where Pete has issues.

Bingo! You said it better than I ever could have. I would add however his general offensive philosophy is wrong/poor.
He needs to “free Russ” and sit back and reap the rewards of doing so.

 

[Mad Dog]

I've been criticizing Pete's X's and O's and schemes for 4-5 years now, so no for me he's strictly just a great motivator and elite organizational manager/president. No one can deny Pete's processes and the way he goes about running a football team. One of the greatest of all time on that front.

But coach on the field? No, not for a while now. IMO he could help his cause by giving up more control to his coordinators and Russell for the gameplanning and on field situational playcalling..............which IMO is where Pete has issues.

Bingo! You said it better than I ever could have. I would add however his general offensive philosophy is wrong/poor.
He needs to “free Russ” and sit back and reap the rewards of doing so.

Doesn't need to do any of that. That's what guys like McCarthy did with Rodgers and it led to a lot of injuries for Erin and no SB's.

Pete's core offensive philosophy is balance. It is being embraced by a lot of teams this year. NO, SF, CAR, LA all play off of balanced rushing attacks. GB has embraced the run and is playing better this year.

A balanced attack means you can dictate with either the pass or the run. It means you have more tools. It means play action works.

This Free Russ stuff is crap. Super efficient Russ with a pounding running game is what Pete Ball is all about and it wins consistently. Just doesn't get anyone's fantasy juices going.

Pete is a great coach and a great motivator. It's hard to have 7 winning seasons in a row in this league. You can't do it with just a rah-rah motivational guy. Ask Mike Singletary. You need X's and O's, you need to be able to coach technique, you need to have situational awareness.

Pete makes mistakes but every coach does and our message boards on Sundays look like every fan board in the NFL including the Patriots boards. People just love to criticize errors. Even worse, people tend to view bad outcomes due to poor execution as coaching errors. Those who really view Pete as an awful game day coach should really get some perspective by following some opponent message boards and realize that fans are the same every where. You'd swear there were 32 terrible coaches in this league.

 

[olyfan63]

The older vets ; especially players that come in through trades etc. ; I don't think the rah-rah crap works with them. I feel that with the insane money these players make that they need a hard-ass HC ; that won't hesitate to get in their grills or bench them or send them down the road . There is no fear factor with Carroll .

You really DO NOT UNDERSTAND PETE and his system.
Pete doesn't operate based on FEAR FIRST. Pete works on making practices FUN, making the learning process FUN, and on COMPETITION all the time. It's simple-minded to call Pete's approach a rah-rah approach.

I do grant your point that there are *some* players who on occasion need someone to get in their grill, kick a little ass, etc. Pete understands this. Just because you don't see Pete doing the loud, critical ass-kicking himself doesn't meant it isn't happening. He has other guys who do this for him, for the guys who need this, to set some boundaries and keep them focused. Ken Norton Jr. comes to mind. Within the players, there are leaders that provide this. Kam Chancellor was an excellent example. On the D it's KJ and Bobby. On the O it was Doug Baldwin, I'd also think Justin Britt and Duane Brown. Pete also chooses not to criticize players in public settings. Pete can focus on positives because players are getting all the feedback they need and more besides in Pete's system. Pete focuses on building a culture.

Yes, Pete sometimes sticks a little too long with crappy players. Eddie Lacy comes to mind. Overall, Pete has no hesitation in sending players down the road. Remember Aaron Curry? Of course you don't. Pete benched his top-5-draft choice ass for KJ Wright when KJ was a 5th round rookie. Players get their ass-kicking feedback by being released, or having their snap count reduced in favor of other players.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I've been criticizing Pete's X's and O's and schemes for 4-5 years now, so no for me he's strictly just a great motivator and elite organizational manager/president. No one can deny Pete's processes and the way he goes about running a football team. One of the greatest of all time on that front.

But coach on the field? No, not for a while now. IMO he could help his cause by giving up more control to his coordinators and Russell for the gameplanning and on field situational playcalling..............which IMO is where Pete has issues.

Bingo! You said it better than I ever could have. I would add however his general offensive philosophy is wrong/poor.
He needs to “free Russ” and sit back and reap the rewards of doing so.

Doesn't need to do any of that. That's what guys like McCarthy did with Rodgers and it led to a lot of injuries for Erin and no SB's..

Right, and after two years of that failed experiment McCarthy and Thompson were fired and new younger people were brought in to completely revamp how the Packers played and used Rodgers.........and looky here, they're 7-1.

Completely overhauled defense and punishing run game with explosive play action. Sound familiar?

That's how we used to be, but Pete and John haven't been able to duplicate that personnel or scheme to get back to this style of football.

I love Pete, and I'm glad he's our coach.......but if you think he hasn't lost his fastball, you haven't been paying attention the last 3-4 years. Six seasons after our last SB trip, and our defense is statistically the worst of any Pete Carroll team since he's been here. That my friend, is what we call a red flag. We've got a couple nice young players, but Pete and John are struggling mightedly to fix this defense, and have been for a while now.

 

[pittpnthrs]

LOL what premier talent did Pete get rid of that wasn't an obvious locker room cancer?

Would they have been the locker room cancer if Pete would have listened and changed sooner than what he has?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

LOL what premier talent did Pete get rid of that wasn't an obvious locker room cancer?

Would they have been the locker room cancer if Pete would have listened and changed sooner than what he has?

Yes, he should have done what the Patriots do, trade their aging stars at the top of the market instead of hang onto them too long and give them fat 2nd and 3rd contracts.

Which I think Pete DID learn his lesson, thus no 22M a year for Frank Clark, and not caving in to Earl's demands to be the highest paid safety in the league.

So for as stubborn as Pete can be, I do think he's conscious of his personnel mistakes and trying to do things better. Is he being successful? Idk, that's another conversation.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I think Pete's a great motivator and an alright X;s and O's guy with terrible situational awareness decision making thrown in. I do think Russell Wilson panning out has made Pete one of the luckiest coaches in the league though. Lets face it, you cant coach what Russ does during broken plays. I also think Pete coaches not to lose instead of coaching to win. We keep making the playoffs and thats great and makes it hard to argue against Pete's philosophy, but knowing you're not going to go very far is aggravating.

 

[pittpnthrs]

LOL what premier talent did Pete get rid of that wasn't an obvious locker room cancer?

Would they have been the locker room cancer if Pete would have listened and changed sooner than what he has?

Yes, he should have done what the Patriots do, trade their aging stars at the top of the market instead of hang onto them too long and give them fat 2nd and 3rd contracts.

Which I think Pete DID learn his lesson, thus no 22M a year for Frank Clark, and not caving in to Earl's demands to be the highest paid safety in the league.

So for as stubborn as Pete can be, I do think he's conscious of his personnel mistakes and trying to do things better. Is he being successful? Idk, that's another conversation.

I do agree with you about signing aging vets to big contracts, but It makes me look at the current situation and think Sherman and Thomas are a whole lot better than what we have now. Although I havent paid any attention to Clark since he went to KC, but i'm sure he would make our nonexistent pass rush better than it currently is. I dont know, its always a tough call. It works for the Pats because they seem to squeeze the most talent out of free agent signings as they possibly can, Seattle,,,,,not so much, but Belichick is a better coach than Carroll so maybe thats it. Like you said, its a conversation for another time.

 

[Mad Dog]

I've been criticizing Pete's X's and O's and schemes for 4-5 years now, so no for me he's strictly just a great motivator and elite organizational manager/president. No one can deny Pete's processes and the way he goes about running a football team. One of the greatest of all time on that front.

But coach on the field? No, not for a while now. IMO he could help his cause by giving up more control to his coordinators and Russell for the gameplanning and on field situational playcalling..............which IMO is where Pete has issues.

Bingo! You said it better than I ever could have. I would add however his general offensive philosophy is wrong/poor.
He needs to “free Russ” and sit back and reap the rewards of doing so.

Doesn't need to do any of that. That's what guys like McCarthy did with Rodgers and it led to a lot of injuries for Erin and no SB's..

Right, and after two years of that failed experiment McCarthy and Thompson were fired and new younger people were brought in to completely revamp how the Packers played and used Rodgers.........and looky here, they're 7-1.

Completely overhauled defense and punishing run game with explosive play action. Sound familiar?

That's how we used to be, but Pete and John haven't been able to duplicate that personnel or scheme to get back to this style of football.

I love Pete, and I'm glad he's our coach.......but if you think he hasn't lost his fastball, you haven't been paying attention the last 3-4 years. Six seasons after our last SB trip, and our defense is statistically the worst of any Pete Carroll team since he's been here. That my friend, is what we call a red flag. We've got a couple nice young players, but Pete and John are struggling mightedly to fix this defense, and have been for a while now.

I'm sorry but the new guys in green bay are following our pattern that we are still using. How is Chris Carson not punishing? We are frequently hitting explosive play action to Lockett and Metcalf.

I agree that they are struggling to get the defense right but Dan Quinn, 3 years removed from a SB appearance is having more trouble. Philadelphia, 2 years from a SB win, still can't get their secondary right. LA Rams, 1 year from the SB has also struggled on D this year.

You are looking at the Hawks in a bubble without perspective. Teams change. Drafts are a crap shoot. We got really fortunate in 2010-2012. We sucked in 2013-2016 and we've been pretty good 2017-2018. These patterns run for every team. We do pretty well given we draft late every year.

You seem to think that a FO has ultimate control in every thing that happens. But you can't predict injuries, who other teams draft, what FA's become available, how much a player wants to be paid, and how rookies will develop. You can only control how you coach, how you evaluate and what culture you set up. Pete's clarity of culture is really what defines him and has produced unrivalled Seahawks success.

Is there someone better than Pete? Probably. Are there worse coaches then Pete out there. Most definitely. Odds always favour that anytime a good coach is fired, you'll go through several bad ones before finding another good one. I'd rather ride the Pete wagon that take that chance.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Speaking of the front office, someone recently posted after the Britt injury that they should have traded him. Yeah, because you can predict injuries ahead of time, well, you SHOULD if you're the front office I guess :roll: