Quinn: Wilson Is Elite. CK, Not Quite There.

[Canuck49]

Popeye - I do some work in Toronto a few times a year. I work for the CBC. I was there during the height of the Rob Ford crack controversy. Flew into the city the day he admitted to smoking. It. Was. Epic. What a gong show.

 

[CallMeADawg]

Reputable opinion from an NFL player that plays in the same division as both teams.

 

[plyka]

Saw the interview, dude seema to be nervous around the camera.
But glad to see he gave props. I thought that the rams hated the seahawks.

Yeah, well I wonder how you would perform in front of millions...it's natural to be a bit nervous the first few times in front of the camera.

I think it's fair to say that Wilson is more advanced than Kaepernick at this stage as a passer, but that Kaepernick has enjoyed more overall success (he DID go to the Superbowl last year).

Where I think the RW vs CK argument gets silly is when people try to make firm absolute statements about what a pair of second year starters can and can't do as if they won't ever improve from where they are at this point in time. It's absurd.

Any clear headed Niners fan will admit that Kap has room for growth in this game. What young QB doesn't? We saw a similar thing with early Steve Young. More of a runner than a passer. Needed to settle down. Relied on his athleticism too much. It took time but Young put together a run of seasons that may be unmatched in NFL history. I'm not saying Kap is going to be Young (he doesn't appear to have the same level of intellectual capacity Young had). But I used that as a cautionary example of people writing off an athletic QB for having poor passing skills because of where he is very early in his career. Remember that Tampa gave up on Young to draft Testaverde. They wanted a pure pocket passer. They sure got one. But they guy they said could never get better sure did.

This may be a it of a logical fallacy. Just because Young had issues and turned great = that all athletic QBs that have issues will turn great. Vince Young was also a great athletic QB, he didn't turn out to be Steve Young, despite the similarity of their names. I know you said that you weren't saying he was going to turn into Steve YOung, but that's not saying much since Steve Young is a best QB of all time candidate.

Kaep has some serious issues. These issues are eliminated due to the great schemes that the niners create. The Niner coaches are far superior to the Seahawks' coaches in my opinion. They understand how to put their players in the best position to succeed. Not saying that the Hawks' coaches are bad in this department, but they are not on the level of the niners' coaches.

The way you "defeat" both QBs is similar. You must sacrafice pressure for containment. Keep them contained in the pocket. Secondly you must take away the run and force them to beat you with their arm. I have more confidence in Wilson, despite the recent offensive struggles (mostly due to scheme and overall strategy of conservatism in my opinion). Wilson is a much better pocket passer. He has a lot of work to do as well, Wilson needs to be able to settle in the pocket and get the ball out. He needs to take more chances, I don't mean to say that Wilson needs to chuck the ball, but he needs to throw his WRs/TE's/RB's open with balls that only the receivers can catch. Take advantage of space. And most importantly, get the ball out quickly. With Kaep, if you take away his run game and keep him contained in the pocket, he will not survive this game.

 

[Popeyejones]

Popeye - I do some work in Toronto a few times a year. I work for the CBC. I was there during the height of the Rob Ford crack controversy. Flew into the city the day he admitted to smoking. It. Was. Epic. What a gong show.

LOL. Yeah, it's been a total mess, but admittedly hugely entertaining for relative outsiders like ourselves. If you end up in Toronto during a game and wanna grab a beer and watch, lemme know. :th2thumbs:

As for CBC, I love it, although I fear my wife might secretly be in love with Jian Ghomeshi.

 

[SirTed]

My problem with people's analysis of Kaep (especially Hawks fans) is that they consistently try to analyze him as a Quarterback. I think this is a mistake. You can't think of him as a Quarterback. Really, I think it's a mistake to put any position label on him. He's a ELITE football player. Period. The guy changes the game. He's a CONSTANT threat. He has his weaknesses, of course - so do most players. And you could argue that maybe he doesn't do certain things that are specific to his "position" as we know it but ultimately that doesn't matter - what matters is how his team uses him. What position does Lebron James play? ( I know you want to say SF) but the real answer is - it doesn't matter. The dude is just an all world athlete, and basketball player. They just let him play, and the same with Colin.


A less extreme Seahawk-centric example of this would be Red Bryant. Think about it. Red is a 4-3 DE, yet has almost 0 ability to rush the passer, traditionally a skill that you NEED out of a 4-3 DE. But nobody cares because that's really what the coaches ask him to do.

 

[JustTheTip]

My problem with people's analysis of Kaep (especially Hawks fans) is that they consistently try to analyze him as a Quarterback. I think this is a mistake. You can't think of him as a Quarterback. Really, I think it's a mistake to put any position label on him. He's a ELITE football player. Period. The guy changes the game. He's a CONSTANT threat. He has his weaknesses, of course - so do most players. And you could argue that maybe he doesn't do certain things that are specific to his "position" as we know it but ultimately that doesn't matter - what matters is how his team uses him. What position does Lebron James play? ( I know you want to say SF) but the real answer is - it doesn't matter. The dude is just an all world athlete, and basketball player. They just let him play, and the same with Colin.


A less extreme Seahawk-centric example of this would be Red Bryant. Think about it. Red is a 4-3 DE, yet has almost 0 ability to rush the passer, traditionally a skill that you NEED out of a 4-3 DE. But nobody cares because that's really what the coaches ask him to do.

Forgive people for analyzing a QB as a QB. And he is not an ELITE football player. Maybe an elite athlete. How well has that worked out for Vick?

 

[Hasselbeck]

I think the system Wilson is in, and his supporting cast prevent him from reaching his full potential.

When they were down 20 to Atlanta last year, and they opened up the offense.. you saw a glimpse at how good he is. Get Russell a healthy Percy Harvin and another playmaker at WR and he could be Drew Brees esque in the passing game.

 

[Popeyejones]

Get Russell a healthy Percy Harvin and another playmaker at WR and he could be Drew Brees esque in the passing game.

Difference being that as we've seen from Brady this year and as we saw from Brees pre-Graham, these other guys don't need a Percy Harvin + another playmaking WR to be elite.*
That's not taking a single thing away from Wilson mind you, it just means he's young and still progressing. He may get there, he may not. He'll be the Hawks best QB in franchise history and a top QB in the league for years to come even if he doesn't improve, IMO.

*(FWIW I'd include Rodgers in this too, but all of his revolving cast of WRs have only played with him, which makes them all insanely overrated. For an Exception See: Jennings after Rodgers).

 

[SirTed]

My problem with people's analysis of Kaep (especially Hawks fans) is that they consistently try to analyze him as a Quarterback. I think this is a mistake. You can't think of him as a Quarterback. Really, I think it's a mistake to put any position label on him. He's a ELITE football player. Period. The guy changes the game. He's a CONSTANT threat. He has his weaknesses, of course - so do most players. And you could argue that maybe he doesn't do certain things that are specific to his "position" as we know it but ultimately that doesn't matter - what matters is how his team uses him. What position does Lebron James play? ( I know you want to say SF) but the real answer is - it doesn't matter. The dude is just an all world athlete, and basketball player. They just let him play, and the same with Colin.


A less extreme Seahawk-centric example of this would be Red Bryant. Think about it. Red is a 4-3 DE, yet has almost 0 ability to rush the passer, traditionally a skill that you NEED out of a 4-3 DE. But nobody cares because that's really what the coaches ask him to do.

Forgive people for analyzing a QB as a QB. And he is not an ELITE football player. Maybe an elite athlete. How well has that worked out for Vick?

To your Vick point - he and Kaep obviously have different builds, man. I know you can see that. Just because Newton Kaepernick and Vick are all mobile QB's doesn't mean they're the same. Newton even more than CK is built like a damn truck.

Of course positions matter - and they each (generally) have specific rolls, but ultimately we're talking about 11 on 11 with a goal of scoring / stopping a TD. If a team finds a unique way to utilize a player, and it works extremely well, what difference does it make? Our own QB is "too short" for the position. He clearly is affected by his height and can't always do things the way a QB traditionally does them, so the team finds ways to make the offense suit his strengths. It really is no different, just in SF's case perhaps it's a bit more extreme.

Darren Sproles is a running back who does RUN the ball extremely efficiently
Jimmy Graham is a TE who can't block.

So - Kaepernick only makes one read, and then looks to run. That's worked out pretty damn well.

It's frustrating. I feel like it should be easy to shut down (and I think the Seahawks are one of, if not the only team in the league capable of doing it) but clearly it's been extremely effective.

 

[EverydayImRusselin]

Get Russell a healthy Percy Harvin and another playmaker at WR and he could be Drew Brees esque in the passing game.

Difference being that as we've seen from Brady this year and as we saw from Brees pre-Graham, these other guys don't need a Percy Harvin + another playmaking WR to be elite.*
That's not taking a single thing away from Wilson mind you, it just means he's young and still progressing. He may get there, he may not. He'll be the Hawks best QB in franchise history and a top QB in the league for years to come even if he doesn't improve, IMO.

*(FWIW I'd include Rodgers in this too, but all of his revolving cast of WRs have only played with him, which makes them all insanely overrated. For an Exception See: Jennings after Rodgers).

Take away all of Brady's weapons like this season and what do you get? Worse numbers than Wilson. So I think given the lack of high quality WR Wilson has to work with, he's done just fine.

Brady - 380 628 4,343 60.5 6.92 25 11 9 61.1 87.3
Wilson - 257 407 3,357 63.1 8.25 26 9 10 58.9 101.2

No I'm not saying Wilson is better than Brady, I'm just illustrating that without any real WR that scare other teams, Wilson does just fine.

 

[GCrow]

You can't call one elite and not the other one. I know we all hate Kaep, becuase he is a dousche and a a Niner, but dude has won 4 playoff games.. I think they are very similar.

So has Mark Sanchez...

 

[ivotuk]

I wanted us to draft Quinn, and I still want him, however we can get him! Strengthen our team and weakern theirs!

 

[TwistedHusky]

Quinn has a vote that is worth more than mine.

I believe that Wilson is a stellar QB but I think calling him elite is jumping the gun.

I think he has the personality attributes to be elite. The drive, willpower and worth ethic. He has plenty of intangibles.

But there are only 3 games I can think of where I think showed he can put the team on his back and win it for them as the main weapon: Chicago, Atlanta and the New Orleans game.

He still seems more of a game manager than an elite QB right now. His consistency is still at issue, one area elite QBs tend to excel.

And frankly, I don't think anyone can dispute that our most important player right now is Lynch. He is our main weapon and the primary difference in wins and losses is when Lynch runs well and when he doesn't. Russell having a good game or not is not a primary factor in these same wins/losses.

Either way, there haven't been enough games to make the determination on elite for either Russell or CK. They both show plenty of promise and a few issues they have to resolve.

But clearly Quinn's statement is a good sign.

 

[Canuck49]

If I played on a team quarterbacked by Sam Bradford and Kellen Clemens I'd think EVERY opposing QB was elite

 

[General Manager]

No comment on Wilson right now. I'll only say this game is huge and he has to play well.

 

[SalishHawkFan]

Get Russell a healthy Percy Harvin and another playmaker at WR and he could be Drew Brees esque in the passing game.

Difference being that as we've seen from Brady this year and as we saw from Brees pre-Graham, these other guys don't need a Percy Harvin + another playmaking WR to be elite.*
That's not taking a single thing away from Wilson mind you, it just means he's young and still progressing. He may get there, he may not. He'll be the Hawks best QB in franchise history and a top QB in the league for years to come even if he doesn't improve, IMO.

*(FWIW I'd include Rodgers in this too, but all of his revolving cast of WRs have only played with him, which makes them all insanely overrated. For an Exception See: Jennings after Rodgers).

You CAN'T take a single thing away from Wilson. You're premise is invalid to begin with. Wilson not only didn't HAVE Harvin, he was the most pressured QB in the NFL. Which left him greater than Brees or Brady:

Poking holes in what Wilson has achieved this season is very difficult. The Seahawks may have a talented roster, but he's not simply supplementing superstars around him. He's not Josh McCown or Nick Foles and he's not Colin Kaepernick or Robert Griffin III. Wilson is clearly on that elite quarterback level. He may not be residing in the upper class level of the elite with Aaron Rodgers and Peyton Manning just yet, but based on this season he is clearly at least on par with Drew Brees and above Tom Brady.

Even if he's not today, it appears inevitable that Russell Wilson will someday be the best quarterback in the NFL.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-r ... ell-wilson

At the same time...I honestly have no idea just how much growth we can expect from DangeRuss, because there is no precedent for what he's doing. No other quarterback in history has had a 100+ passer rating over his first two seasons. Yes, Wilson is aided by the best defense, special teams, and running back in the league. We also saw him run for his life for half the season behind the worst offensive line in terms of pass protection for 8 weeks with 3 UDFA receivers, and still average a 100+ passer rating over that stretch. Logic dictates that when the quality of Wilson's supporting cast declines, he too will regress to the mean. Of course the experts thought that would happen this season, too.

If history is any indicator, Wilson's performance over his first two NFL seasons is closer to his floor than his ceiling.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/12/20/52 ... wilson-get

Russell Wilson versus the NFL, 2012-2013 (sorted by passer rating)
Name GS Comp Att Yards Y/A TD INT Rating AY/A RushTD Wins
Peyton Manning 27 705 1028 8381 8.15 73 18 109.6 8.79 1 22
Aaron Rodgers 24 539 803 6513 8.11 54 12 108.0 8.78 2 16
Russell Wilson 27 428 668 5480 8.20 45 16 102.1 8.47 5 21
Drew Brees 27 722 1109 8824 7.96 71 27 100.7 8.14 2 16
Nick Foles 11 264 427 3253 7.62 22 5 97.6 8.12 3 5
Philip Rivers 27 619 924 6987 7.56 48 23 96.4 7.48 0 12
Matt Ryan 27 719 1058 7879 7.45 50 26 95.3 7.29 1 15
Ben Roethlisberger 25 581 910 6640 7.30 47 18 94.7 7.44 0 12
Tom Brady 27 658 1067 7723 7.24 51 15 93.7 7.56 4 20
Tony Romo 28 710 1088 8043 7.39 52 26 93.2 7.27 1 15

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/11/30/51 ... p-seahawks

It's not a story of "young a progressing", it's not a question of he may get there or not. He's already there. Give him protection and he'll probably project to a lifetime 110 QB rating. Making him the elite of the elite.

 

[Exittium]

I think it's fair to say that Wilson is more advanced than Kaepernick at this stage as a passer, but that Kaepernick has enjoyed more overall success (he DID go to the Superbowl last year).

Where I think the RW vs CK argument gets silly is when people try to make firm absolute statements about what a pair of second year starters can and can't do as if they won't ever improve from where they are at this point in time. It's absurd.

Any clear headed Niners fan will admit that Kap has room for growth in this game. What young QB doesn't? We saw a similar thing with early Steve Young. More of a runner than a passer. Needed to settle down. Relied on his athleticism too much. It took time but Young put together a run of seasons that may be unmatched in NFL history. I'm not saying Kap is going to be Young (he doesn't appear to have the same level of intellectual capacity Young had). But I used that as a cautionary example of people writing off an athletic QB for having poor passing skills because of where he is very early in his career. Remember that Tampa gave up on Young to draft Testaverde. They wanted a pure pocket passer. They sure got one. But they guy they said could never get better sure did.

Didn't he go to the SB from riding the coat tails of Alex smith before Hardouche replaced him with Kap? Yeah.. So im not giving kaep shit for credit. Yes I'm Biased about my team, and when compliments are given as such. I think they're deserved. OH and Wilson has only been in the league 2 yrs Kaep's been in it for what 3 and that 1st yr was as a back up. :49ersmall: :49ersmall: :49ersmall: :49ersmall: :49ersmall: :49ersmall: :49ersmall:

 

[Blitzer88]

Kind words from Mr. Quinn, but really. Russell hasn't been playing at an elite level the last several weeks. He needs to return to form if we want to get past the Niners.

 

[joeseahawks]

I think Wilson performance will Absolutely depend on protection. NO QB in the league can do much without protection. We need protection to allow RW time to throw. To me, that's the key to the game. If RW doesn't have time to throw, this will be an ugly game.
Bevell and PC need to either keep TEs back to protect or get Lynch/Fullback back there to protect. I want to see us beat the 49ers throwing the ball the field.
I expect Tate, Baldwin, Mueller and Kearse to have big games catching.

 

[chris98251]

For 49ers fans I compare Kaep to a Randall Cunningham, body types not so disimular and some of the mistakes the same, both being great athletes. I hope that Kaep gets it sooner then Cunningham did, it took a few bad injuries for him to learn to read and study and trust what he saw to become comfortable in the pocket, I also can't remember the Minnesota QB coach that helped him with that and Warren Moon.