Russell Wilson "should have won MVP," says Anthony Barr

[Hawk1217]

Just want to say one thing about Wilson, and you guys know I love him as out QB and love his uncouth play style so don't think I am just dumping on him.

Wilson can be a coach-killer.

Someone like Bill Walsh would script a number of plays, some of which were designed to do nothing more than to show a look they would later go back to with a different play called. Basically they would create "tells" for the defense to pick up on, and then exploit the defense later by giving a "tell" and doing something different.

Wilson tries to make every play work, and will go off-script early and often. It almost doesn't matter what looks we show, because any look results in Benny-Hill scrambling and an improbable pass down the field. The OC can't set things up for later, or really even get much information from plays that are designed to see certain reactions.

Part of Wilson's maturity will come from simply running the play by the book when he needs to, so that the OC can actually do his job.

That factor alone may reduce his MVP status for some people, and I can completely understand that. Improvisation is great, but in a chess match played by masters, you kind of have to follow where they tell you to go because every feint has meaning.

To be fair we haven't exactly had masters calling the shots, and at times I wanted to see what the offense would look like if we left the play calling to Wilson from the outset instead of calling some fail pass play from the sideline that will only work if we queue up the kazoos.

So while I get what you are saying, I don't agree at all. not much else can be said given there was no link or anything to support the thought. Also the Idea he can be a coach killer is absurd. I could easily argue if he needs to improvise so much the coach should be fired.

I think Kiwi has good points(s)
There isn't going to be links to support what he saying but if you really understand the game
it is much more than you see on tv right?
There is also the fact I will add that due to RW height there are plays that cannot be ran that
other QB's can do all the time such as quick slants..Passes right up the gut- the kind of stuff
that Brady and AR can do in a hairs time to wipe out blitzes..
Do I need links to support this?No because it is clear as day when you watch the Hawks enough
to know that our QB has weakness just like any other QB and sure he has strengths as well
so don't take me wrong ..I just think some refuse to see reality some times when it comes to
RW..

I agree all QBs have strengths and weaknesses to include Brady. I am not sure I agree with some of what you say, as I have seen him through quick slants many times. To me one of his weaknesses is sometimes he falls in love with the long ball too much, just as sometimes Brady falls in love with the short ball too much. My request for links was his comment about what Bill Walsh did. There has to be a link or something saying he did this, otherwise no one can say for sure he did. Pete has said and there are links I have seen here you cant win in the 1st or the 2nd or the third, so we know that is true. He has said he likes to play it conservative in the first half, so we know that is true. We do not know if Bill Walsh did what was said since there is no supporting evidence. Oh and FYI I have either played, coached or refereed football for over 40 years, so I do understand the game very well. I think some here like to harp a lot or only on his weaknesses making them out to be far bigger than they are, while downplaying his strengths.

 

[KiwiHawk]

I agree all QBs have strengths and weaknesses to include Brady. I am not sure I agree with some of what you say, as I have seen him through quick slants many times. To me one of his weaknesses is sometimes he falls in love with the long ball too much, just as sometimes Brady falls in love with the short ball too much. My request for links was his comment about what Bill Walsh did. There has to be a link or something saying he did this, otherwise no one can say for sure he did. Pete has said and there are links I have seen here you cant win in the 1st or the 2nd or the third, so we know that is true. He has said he likes to play it conservative in the first half, so we know that is true. We do not know if Bill Walsh did what was said since there is no supporting evidence. Oh and FYI I have either played, coached or refereed football for over 40 years, so I do understand the game very well. I think some here like to harp a lot or only on his weaknesses making them out to be far bigger than they are, while downplaying his strengths.

I'm not sure how you haven't heard of Bill Walsh scripting the first 20 plays, to be honest. I've only played a bit in middle school, but have followed the NFL for 40 years and I guess being in or near the Bay Area for a lot of that I had more exposure to Walsh and his coaching philosophy, but I always thought it was common knowledge that testing the defense was one of the underlying principles of the West Coast offense. most coaches who run the system script plays deliberately to gauge the defensive response to certain looks and shifts. I guess you don't actually have to play the game to be a student of it.

And to be clear, when I speak of coach-killer it's because when Wilson goes off-script, the success is credited to him and the failure is credited to him having to go off-script (e.g. the coach). He's a no-win situation from a coaching perspective, so I hope we rein that in just a little while still allowing the creative genius side to flourish. And for the record his coach did get fired.

Because when Wilson has an off-day, he can be really, really bad. He needs a game plan, at least to fall back on.

 

[adeltaY]

Put Brady behind our offensive line, and he would have been on IR before the 1st quarter of the season was over. And this team would have been 2-14.

And there's only one defensive stat that matters in the NFL, scoring defense. You can use all the acronyms and formulas you want, but the #1 defense in the NFL isn't the one that has pretty numbers, or the one that allows the fewest yards, it's the one that allows the fewest points.

Russell can only do so much, the rest of the team failed him. He didn't have time to launch deep throws, and it's a wonder he played as well as he did at the end of the season after spending 12 weeks getting hammered, and running for his life. NO QB in the NFL could have done as well as Russell Wilson did last year on a horrid team.

Yet he never complained. I guarantee you Aaron Rodgers or Kaepernick would have been whining by week 5.

I get what you're saying from a philosophical perspective, but one number does not capture how good a defense is/was. You can have a very good scoring defense because of favorable field position, your offense holding onto the ball, your offense getting out to big leads and forcing opposing offenses into unfavorable situations, etc. That does not mean you have a great defense. Efficiency and drive stats absolutely matter. The Seahawks defense at its peak in 2013 and 2014 was #1 in scoring, #1 in yards, and #1 in DVOA as well as top-tier in drive stats. That's what made them unquestionably the best defense of those years and historically great.

The Seahawks were also #1 in scoring defense in 2015. Do you really think they were better than the 2015 Broncos defense?

To Kiwi's point, I don't quite get it. If you're an OC looking for "tells" from the defense you should be able to see them before RW scrambles on most plays. He usually doesn't scramble instantaneously after receiving the snap, so unless the play is very long-developing, you can see how the defense reacts within the first 2-3 seconds before the play breaks down and Wilson takes off.

 

[Milehighhawk]

I'll just add this one to the conversation around Russ.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-netwo...00938832/James-Jones-Top-5-playmakers-of-2018

In case you don't want to watch the video, another former player (James Jones) has Russ #1 based on his opinion of the best playmakers in the league this coming season.

 

[Hawk1217]

I agree all QBs have strengths and weaknesses to include Brady. I am not sure I agree with some of what you say, as I have seen him through quick slants many times. To me one of his weaknesses is sometimes he falls in love with the long ball too much, just as sometimes Brady falls in love with the short ball too much. My request for links was his comment about what Bill Walsh did. There has to be a link or something saying he did this, otherwise no one can say for sure he did. Pete has said and there are links I have seen here you cant win in the 1st or the 2nd or the third, so we know that is true. He has said he likes to play it conservative in the first half, so we know that is true. We do not know if Bill Walsh did what was said since there is no supporting evidence. Oh and FYI I have either played, coached or refereed football for over 40 years, so I do understand the game very well. I think some here like to harp a lot or only on his weaknesses making them out to be far bigger than they are, while downplaying his strengths.

I'm not sure how you haven't heard of Bill Walsh scripting the first 20 plays, to be honest. I've only played a bit in middle school, but have followed the NFL for 40 years and I guess being in or near the Bay Area for a lot of that I had more exposure to Walsh and his coaching philosophy, but I always thought it was common knowledge that testing the defense was one of the underlying principles of the West Coast offense. most coaches who run the system script plays deliberately to gauge the defensive response to certain looks and shifts. I guess you don't actually have to play the game to be a student of it.

And to be clear, when I speak of coach-killer it's because when Wilson goes off-script, the success is credited to him and the failure is credited to him having to go off-script (e.g. the coach). He's a no-win situation from a coaching perspective, so I hope we rein that in just a little while still allowing the creative genius side to flourish. And for the record his coach did get fired.

Because when Wilson has an off-day, he can be really, really bad. He needs a game plan, at least to fall back on.

Scripting the first whatever plays is one thing, but purposely wasting a play to set something up later I have never heard of. To do that you would first have to find a play where you think you see a weakness, and then try it several more times to ensure it really is a weakness and further set them up. I have never heard of a coach wasting 3-4 plays calling a play they know will not work.

Thanks for the clarification on the "coach killer" comment makes more sense. I agree a good game plan would be nice, maybe this year we will get one. However also keep in mind as Pete and Bevel have said they count on those off script plays every game, so it is their own fault. Create a real game plan without counting on the off-script plays.

 

[Hawk1217]

Put Brady behind our offensive line, and he would have been on IR before the 1st quarter of the season was over. And this team would have been 2-14.

And there's only one defensive stat that matters in the NFL, scoring defense. You can use all the acronyms and formulas you want, but the #1 defense in the NFL isn't the one that has pretty numbers, or the one that allows the fewest yards, it's the one that allows the fewest points.

Russell can only do so much, the rest of the team failed him. He didn't have time to launch deep throws, and it's a wonder he played as well as he did at the end of the season after spending 12 weeks getting hammered, and running for his life. NO QB in the NFL could have done as well as Russell Wilson did last year on a horrid team.

Yet he never complained. I guarantee you Aaron Rodgers or Kaepernick would have been whining by week 5.

I get what you're saying from a philosophical perspective, but one number does not capture how good a defense is/was. You can have a very good scoring defense because of favorable field position, your offense holding onto the ball, your offense getting out to big leads and forcing opposing offenses into unfavorable situations, etc. That does not mean you have a great defense. Efficiency and drive stats absolutely matter. The Seahawks defense at its peak in 2013 and 2014 was #1 in scoring, #1 in yards, and #1 in DVOA as well as top-tier in drive stats. That's what made them unquestionably the best defense of those years and historically great.

The Seahawks were also #1 in scoring defense in 2015. Do you really think they were better than the 2015 Broncos defense?

To Kiwi's point, I don't quite get it. If you're an OC looking for "tells" from the defense you should be able to see them before RW scrambles on most plays. He usually doesn't scramble instantaneously after receiving the snap, so unless the play is very long-developing, you can see how the defense reacts within the first 2-3 seconds before the play breaks down and Wilson takes off.

agreed not to mention that is what the film room is for. Other teams rum similar plays and you can see how they react form that. Then run it once and if they react the same way, you got them, not keep running them over and over again.

 

[IndyHawk]

Just want to say one thing about Wilson, and you guys know I love him as out QB and love his uncouth play style so don't think I am just dumping on him.

Wilson can be a coach-killer.

Someone like Bill Walsh would script a number of plays, some of which were designed to do nothing more than to show a look they would later go back to with a different play called. Basically they would create "tells" for the defense to pick up on, and then exploit the defense later by giving a "tell" and doing something different.

Wilson tries to make every play work, and will go off-script early and often. It almost doesn't matter what looks we show, because any look results in Benny-Hill scrambling and an improbable pass down the field. The OC can't set things up for later, or really even get much information from plays that are designed to see certain reactions.

Part of Wilson's maturity will come from simply running the play by the book when he needs to, so that the OC can actually do his job.

That factor alone may reduce his MVP status for some people, and I can completely understand that. Improvisation is great, but in a chess match played by masters, you kind of have to follow where they tell you to go because every feint has meaning.

To be fair we haven't exactly had masters calling the shots, and at times I wanted to see what the offense would look like if we left the play calling to Wilson from the outset instead of calling some fail pass play from the sideline that will only work if we queue up the kazoos.

So while I get what you are saying, I don't agree at all. not much else can be said given there was no link or anything to support the thought. Also the Idea he can be a coach killer is absurd. I could easily argue if he needs to improvise so much the coach should be fired.

I think Kiwi has good points(s)
There isn't going to be links to support what he saying but if you really understand the game
it is much more than you see on tv right?
There is also the fact I will add that due to RW height there are plays that cannot be ran that
other QB's can do all the time such as quick slants..Passes right up the gut- the kind of stuff
that Brady and AR can do in a hairs time to wipe out blitzes..
Do I need links to support this?No because it is clear as day when you watch the Hawks enough
to know that our QB has weakness just like any other QB and sure he has strengths as well
so don't take me wrong ..I just think some refuse to see reality some times when it comes to
RW..

I agree all QBs have strengths and weaknesses to include Brady. I am not sure I agree with some of what you say, as I have seen him through quick slants many times. To me one of his weaknesses is sometimes he falls in love with the long ball too much, just as sometimes Brady falls in love with the short ball too much. My request for links was his comment about what Bill Walsh did. There has to be a link or something saying he did this, otherwise no one can say for sure he did. Pete has said and there are links I have seen here you cant win in the 1st or the 2nd or the third, so we know that is true. He has said he likes to play it conservative in the first half, so we know that is true. We do not know if Bill Walsh did what was said since there is no supporting evidence. Oh and FYI I have either played, coached or refereed football for over 40 years, so I do understand the game very well. I think some here like to harp a lot or only on his weaknesses making them out to be far bigger than they are, while downplaying his strengths.

Never meant to say you didn't understand football but it may have come across that way.
As for the slants he may have done some but all I have seen is a underhand pass to the middle.
The passes up the middle I have seen are when in shotgun and those are 15-20 yards away or
more.The slant I think of is what Brady does.
As for the Walsh scripting 29 plays,that is what most west coast offenses do or did and Walsh
started it all.You can see it on an episode of NFL films or even You Tube which is probaly easier
to find on there.

 

[Hawk1217]

So while I get what you are saying, I don't agree at all. not much else can be said given there was no link or anything to support the thought. Also the Idea he can be a coach killer is absurd. I could easily argue if he needs to improvise so much the coach should be fired.

I think Kiwi has good points(s)
There isn't going to be links to support what he saying but if you really understand the game
it is much more than you see on tv right?
There is also the fact I will add that due to RW height there are plays that cannot be ran that
other QB's can do all the time such as quick slants..Passes right up the gut- the kind of stuff
that Brady and AR can do in a hairs time to wipe out blitzes..
Do I need links to support this?No because it is clear as day when you watch the Hawks enough
to know that our QB has weakness just like any other QB and sure he has strengths as well
so don't take me wrong ..I just think some refuse to see reality some times when it comes to
RW..

I agree all QBs have strengths and weaknesses to include Brady. I am not sure I agree with some of what you say, as I have seen him through quick slants many times. To me one of his weaknesses is sometimes he falls in love with the long ball too much, just as sometimes Brady falls in love with the short ball too much. My request for links was his comment about what Bill Walsh did. There has to be a link or something saying he did this, otherwise no one can say for sure he did. Pete has said and there are links I have seen here you cant win in the 1st or the 2nd or the third, so we know that is true. He has said he likes to play it conservative in the first half, so we know that is true. We do not know if Bill Walsh did what was said since there is no supporting evidence. Oh and FYI I have either played, coached or refereed football for over 40 years, so I do understand the game very well. I think some here like to harp a lot or only on his weaknesses making them out to be far bigger than they are, while downplaying his strengths.

Never meant to say you didn't understand football but it may have come across that way.
As for the slants he may have done some but all I have seen is a underhand pass to the middle.
The passes up the middle I have seen are when in shotgun and those are 15-20 yards away or
more.The slant I think of is what Brady does.
As for the Walsh scripting 29 plays,that is what most west coast offenses do or did and Walsh
started it all.You can see it on an episode of NFL films or even You Tube which is probaly easier
to find on there.

It was not the scripting of plays Walsh did. I know he did that, but he did not stick with plays 3+ times when they did not work. Even if they were part of his script. He would make adjustments in game. I have seen plenty of games where he coached and I agree he did script some like all WCO. However they did not keep running plays that did not work, they adjusted, they ran a play to see if the weakness they saw in the film was still there. They did not just keep running it. As to slants yeah he has thrown them, but as Pete has said time and time again throwing to the middle is risky. All that aside let's say you are right and he has never, that does not mean he can't. That is one of the things I had noticed on this board. A lot of he does not or does not a lot so he can't, and not just about Wilson. Like I said I have seen him throw them, just because it does not happen a lot does not mean he cant. Just means they don't call it a lot and as I said Pete doe snto like throwing over the middle, he has said that.

 

[adeltaY]

One thing that's good about Schotty is he uses RB screens. The couple times Bev actually called them last year they worked, idk why we didn't more often. Didn't seem like Russ had a glaring fault in executing the throw.

 

[Hawk1217]

One thing that's good about Schotty is he uses RB screens. The couple times Bev actually called them last year they worked, idk why we didn't more often. Didn't seem like Russ had a glaring fault in executing the throw.

That is a great question, I too noticed they worked well.

 

[KiwiHawk]

It's not runing a play doomed to fail 3-4 times. It's knowing what your opposition has seen on tape from you and running it that way once to let them confirm their assessment of that set, then crossing them up later. Walsh played the long game. he'd sacrifice individual plays for the overall game plan. Of course you can waste a play here and there when you have Joe Montana/Steve Young throwing to Jerry Rice if you need to convert a 3rd down.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Put Brady behind our offensive line, and he would have been on IR before the 1st quarter of the season was over. And this team would have been 2-14.

And there's only one defensive stat that matters in the NFL, scoring defense. You can use all the acronyms and formulas you want, but the #1 defense in the NFL isn't the one that has pretty numbers, or the one that allows the fewest yards, it's the one that allows the fewest points.

Russell can only do so much, the rest of the team failed him. He didn't have time to launch deep throws, and it's a wonder he played as well as he did at the end of the season after spending 12 weeks getting hammered, and running for his life. NO QB in the NFL could have done as well as Russell Wilson did last year on a horrid team.

Yet he never complained. I guarantee you Aaron Rodgers or Kaepernick would have been whining by week 5.

The argument "put Brady behind our offensive line" is not any sort of argument. For one it is something that is never going to happen, thus it cannot be proven or disproven. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Secondly, Brady has played behind some bad lines in his career, and he still looked good. Brady, too is good at avoiding pressure, he just does so in a different manner than Russ does. It doesn't show up in the highlight reels, but you can see it if you watch the guy on tape.

Brady avoids pressure by getting rid of the ball quickly, and making subtle little movements in the pocket to set up his blockers. These are skills that Russell Wilson is not very good at. In the pocket he has always looked like a chicken with his head cut off even in some of the better years of O-line play. There was one play in particular that I recall from this season of him sitting in a clean pocket, and then running around in a circle, then unwittingly running into a defenders arms sacking himself. He is quite possibly one of the worst QB's in the NFL when it comes to pocket management. This would sink most QB's careers, but fortunately for Russ he is the greatest scrambler since Fran Tarkenton (I say Fran and not Vick because while Vick was fast, and great runner he wasn't particularly hard to tackle in the pocket). You can also see statistics for how long on average a QB holds onto the ball. In all years except 2015 Russell Wilson was number 1 or 2 in most time with ball in the hands.

Russ is a great QB, and is quite possibly the biggest playmaker in the NFL. The sheer amount of BS he can pull off is staggering. He can pull of feats that no other QB in the NFL could ever pull off. He is the Barry Sanders of the QB world. Like Barry Sanders he has times where he can't get out of his own way (Sanders has the most negative yards and TFL is NFL history). This leads to uneven play, and large periods of games where he is irrelevant. Fortunately for us when he does come to bat he is usually unstoppable. I just wonder what changed in 2015 when compared to the rest of his career. I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.

 

[Steve2222]

Put Brady behind our offensive line, and he would have been on IR before the 1st quarter of the season was over. And this team would have been 2-14.

And there's only one defensive stat that matters in the NFL, scoring defense. You can use all the acronyms and formulas you want, but the #1 defense in the NFL isn't the one that has pretty numbers, or the one that allows the fewest yards, it's the one that allows the fewest points.

Russell can only do so much, the rest of the team failed him. He didn't have time to launch deep throws, and it's a wonder he played as well as he did at the end of the season after spending 12 weeks getting hammered, and running for his life. NO QB in the NFL could have done as well as Russell Wilson did last year on a horrid team.

Yet he never complained. I guarantee you Aaron Rodgers or Kaepernick would have been whining by week 5.

The argument "put Brady behind our offensive line" is not any sort of argument. For one it is something that is never going to happen, thus it cannot be proven or disproven. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Secondly, Brady has played behind some bad lines in his career, and he still looked good. Brady, too is good at avoiding pressure, he just does so in a different manner than Russ does. It doesn't show up in the highlight reels, but you can see it if you watch the guy on tape.

Brady avoids pressure by getting rid of the ball quickly, and making subtle little movements in the pocket to set up his blockers. These are skills that Russell Wilson is not very good at. In the pocket he has always looked like a chicken with his head cut off even in some of the better years of O-line play. There was one play in particular that I recall from this season of him sitting in a clean pocket, and then running around in a circle, then unwittingly running into a defenders arms sacking himself. He is quite possibly one of the worst QB's in the NFL when it comes to pocket management. This would sink most QB's careers, but fortunately for Russ he is the greatest scrambler since Fran Tarkenton (I say Fran and not Vick because while Vick was fast, and great runner he wasn't particularly hard to tackle in the pocket). You can also see statistics for how long on average a QB holds onto the ball. In all years except 2015 Russell Wilson was number 1 or 2 in most time with ball in the hands.

Russ is a great QB, and is quite possibly the biggest playmaker in the NFL. The sheer amount of BS he can pull off is staggering. He can pull of feats that no other QB in the NFL could ever pull off. He is the Barry Sanders of the QB world. Like Barry Sanders he has times where he can't get out of his own way (Sanders has the most negative yards and TFL is NFL history). This leads to uneven play, and large periods of games where he is irrelevant. Fortunately for us when he does come to bat he is usually unstoppable. I just wonder what changed in 2015 when compared to the rest of his career. I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.

No. You can easily come to the conclusion Brady would have gotten hurt behind this OL. Definitely couldn’t perform behind this OL. Sure Brady has played behind bad OLs. He has never, however, played behind historically terrible OLs. And for the large portion of his career, he’s played behind league average to top 10 OLs.

Brady can manipulate the pocket, but he is still a statue in the pocket.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Put Brady behind our offensive line, and he would have been on IR before the 1st quarter of the season was over. And this team would have been 2-14.

And there's only one defensive stat that matters in the NFL, scoring defense. You can use all the acronyms and formulas you want, but the #1 defense in the NFL isn't the one that has pretty numbers, or the one that allows the fewest yards, it's the one that allows the fewest points.

Russell can only do so much, the rest of the team failed him. He didn't have time to launch deep throws, and it's a wonder he played as well as he did at the end of the season after spending 12 weeks getting hammered, and running for his life. NO QB in the NFL could have done as well as Russell Wilson did last year on a horrid team.

Yet he never complained. I guarantee you Aaron Rodgers or Kaepernick would have been whining by week 5.

The argument "put Brady behind our offensive line" is not any sort of argument. For one it is something that is never going to happen, thus it cannot be proven or disproven. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Secondly, Brady has played behind some bad lines in his career, and he still looked good. Brady, too is good at avoiding pressure, he just does so in a different manner than Russ does. It doesn't show up in the highlight reels, but you can see it if you watch the guy on tape.

Brady avoids pressure by getting rid of the ball quickly, and making subtle little movements in the pocket to set up his blockers. These are skills that Russell Wilson is not very good at. In the pocket he has always looked like a chicken with his head cut off even in some of the better years of O-line play. There was one play in particular that I recall from this season of him sitting in a clean pocket, and then running around in a circle, then unwittingly running into a defenders arms sacking himself. He is quite possibly one of the worst QB's in the NFL when it comes to pocket management. This would sink most QB's careers, but fortunately for Russ he is the greatest scrambler since Fran Tarkenton (I say Fran and not Vick because while Vick was fast, and great runner he wasn't particularly hard to tackle in the pocket). You can also see statistics for how long on average a QB holds onto the ball. In all years except 2015 Russell Wilson was number 1 or 2 in most time with ball in the hands.

Russ is a great QB, and is quite possibly the biggest playmaker in the NFL. The sheer amount of BS he can pull off is staggering. He can pull of feats that no other QB in the NFL could ever pull off. He is the Barry Sanders of the QB world. Like Barry Sanders he has times where he can't get out of his own way (Sanders has the most negative yards and TFL is NFL history). This leads to uneven play, and large periods of games where he is irrelevant. Fortunately for us when he does come to bat he is usually unstoppable. I just wonder what changed in 2015 when compared to the rest of his career. I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.

No. You can easily come to the conclusion Brady would have gotten hurt behind this OL. Definitely couldn’t perform behind this OL. Sure Brady has played behind bad OLs. He has never, however, played behind historically terrible OLs. And for the large portion of his career, he’s played behind league average to top 10 OLs.

Brady can manipulate the pocket, but he is still a statue in the pocket.

You cannot for say "you can easily come to the conclusion" here. It is something that will never happen, and furthermore these players have completely different styles of play. It is not a foregone conclusion either way. Especially since Brady is the type of QB that makes a linemans job very easy. If he sees a mismatch at the LOS he defaults to another play and changes protections, or makes corrections. Brady is also very good at manipulating blockers, and getting the ball out of his hands quickly. As far as injuries go, Brady is the kind of QB that just goes down when he sees there is no chance, or just throws the ball out of bounds. He knows when to hold 'em and he knows when to fold 'em. That combined with his quick release makes it so he is able to play in the NFL at his old age at an elite level without getting injured.

Russ on the other hand is the antithesis to the Brady way. Instead of stepping up in the pocket he has a bad habit of retreating back which makes defenders have an easy angle. One of the core skills an offensive lineman uses is just simply deflection. Rerouting the D-lineman past the QB using the D-linemans momentum. This fundamental becomes useless if your QB is hanging 15+ yards past the LOS. Furthermore, Wilson tends to hold onto the ball longer than any QB in the league. A lot of times Brown looked very confused as to where he should be when we traded for him. Wilson is also very bad at managing the pocket. I've seen him manufacture pressure on himself by walking into a defenders area, or not having a good grasp what is going on around him in the pocket. He is able to get around his poor pocket presence by his phenomenal agility, and elusiveness. As I said, it like watching people trying to tackle Barry Sanders.

Did Russell Wilson have to deal with a bad situation? Yes. Can we say for sure that Brady would be better than Wilson in this situation, or perhaps be worse than Wilson in this situation? No. There are good arguments for both sides, and honestly I find it a waste of time since Brady will never play on the 2017 Seahawks. All we're doing is coming up with a lovely piece of fiction that suits our world view here.

 

[Hawk1217]

It's not runing a play doomed to fail 3-4 times. It's knowing what your opposition has seen on tape from you and running it that way once to let them confirm their assessment of that set, then crossing them up later. Walsh played the long game. he'd sacrifice individual plays for the overall game plan. Of course you can waste a play here and there when you have Joe Montana/Steve Young throwing to Jerry Rice if you need to convert a 3rd down.

Even if Wilson goes off script you still get to see how they react to the play called, because most of the time when he goes off script it is late in the play, unless they get a jailbreak rush on him, and then I am pretty sure any coach would prefer him running than getting hit.

 

[Hawk1217]

So Bradys pass blocking oline in his career

The worst he had and only once was 26th and he did not have a great year, QB rating 86.5 18tds 12ints not good. The best he had was 1st and he had an MVP year. His avg for his career is 11th

Wilsons worst was 32nd in pass blocking, he had a good year 101.2 QB rating, 26 tds 9 ints. His best was 20th, his league avg is 26th. Think about that Wilson avg pass blocking oline ranking is Bradys worst year and Bradys avg pass blocking oline Wilson has never even come close to. So yeah huge difference and you can easily make the leap that Brady would not have done well behind this oline. Imagine if Wilson had the 112th ranked pass blocking oline for most of his career so far. WOW All data was from footballoutsider.com and ESPN

 

[Spin Doctor]

So Bradys pass blocking oline in his career

The worst he had and only once was 26th and he did not have a great year, QB rating 86.5 18tds 12ints not good. The best he had was 1st and he had an MVP year. His avg for his career is 11th

Wilsons worst was 32nd in pass blocking, he had a good year 101.2 QB rating, 26 tds 9 ints. His best was 20th, his league avg is 26th. Think about that Wilson avg pass blocking oline ranking is Bradys worst year and Bradys avg pass blocking oline Wilson has never even come close to. So yeah huge difference and you can easily make the leap that Brady would not have done well behind this oline. Imagine if Wilson had the 112th ranked pass blocking oline for most of his career so far. WOW All data was from footballoutsider.com and ESPN

You're completely misrepresenting my argument. I am saying that Wilson has the tendency to make offensive lines look worse than they really are, and Brady is conversely the opposite. They approach the game in two drastically different fashions. That is not the kind of thing that shows up in these kind of statistics such as "offensive line rankings". There is a good reason why Brady's offensive lines always rank so high. The reason being the way they approach the game is completely different. Wilson at times will straight up walk himself into sacks, and create phantom pressure, or bail from a clean pocket inexplicably. He also does not give up on a seemingly doomed play because he has that ability. It's a double edged sword.

Wilson holds the ball longer than any other QB, and does not have much pocket presence. Those two things alone will negatively affect sack rates, and offensive line "rankings". The play between a line and the QB is symbiotic, one can make the other look better, it goes both ways. Russ can make impossible things happen, but on the same token he takes a lot of sacks, and negative plays trying to make a big play. That type of style will always make a line look bad on paper. You're trying to look at these statistics in a vacuum to support your view on this issue. In reality it is much more nuanced than many on here want to admit.

What would Brady do here? Nobody knows, and it is entirely hypothetical and fictitious. It amounts to Seahawk fans patting themselves on the back, and saying SEE my guy is better than the other guy. It is foolish mental gymnastics. The truth of the matter is Wilson faltered when the Seahawks needed him the most, and we didn't make the post season. He had a giant burden on his shoulders, yes, however 10/10 not making the post season will take you out of the running for MVP, and rightfully so. With or without Wilson we still couldn't make the playoffs. That fact alone makes the 2017 Seahawks entirely irrelevant. Brady, and Wilson had similar stats, and Brady made it to the post season. You shouldn't be surprised that he got the MVP award.

 

[Hawk1217]

So Bradys pass blocking oline in his career

The worst he had and only once was 26th and he did not have a great year, QB rating 86.5 18tds 12ints not good. The best he had was 1st and he had an MVP year. His avg for his career is 11th

Wilsons worst was 32nd in pass blocking, he had a good year 101.2 QB rating, 26 tds 9 ints. His best was 20th, his league avg is 26th. Think about that Wilson avg pass blocking oline ranking is Bradys worst year and Bradys avg pass blocking oline Wilson has never even come close to. So yeah huge difference and you can easily make the leap that Brady would not have done well behind this oline. Imagine if Wilson had the 112th ranked pass blocking oline for most of his career so far. WOW All data was from footballoutsider.com and ESPN

You're completely misrepresenting my argument. I am saying that Wilson has the tendency to make offensive lines look worse than they really are, and Brady is conversely the opposite. They approach the game in two drastically different fashions. That is not the kind of thing that shows up in these kind of statistics such as "offensive line rankings". There is a good reason why Brady's offensive lines always rank so high. The reason being the way they approach the game is completely different. Wilson at times will straight up walk himself into sacks, and create phantom pressure, or bail from a clean pocket inexplicably. He also does not give up on a seemingly doomed play because he has that ability. It's a double edged sword.

Wilson holds the ball longer than any other QB, and does not have much pocket presence. Those two things alone will negatively affect sack rates, and offensive line "rankings". The play between a line and the QB is symbiotic, one can make the other look better, it goes both ways. Russ can make impossible things happen, but on the same token he takes a lot of sacks, and negative plays trying to make a big play. That type of style will always make a line look bad on paper. You're trying to look at these statistics in a vacuum to support your view on this issue. In reality it is much more nuanced than many on here want to admit.

What would Brady do here? Nobody knows, and it is entirely hypothetical and fictitious. It amounts to Seahawk fans patting themselves on the back, and saying SEE my guy is better than the other guy. It is foolish mental gymnastics. The truth of the matter is Wilson faltered when the Seahawks needed him the most, and we didn't make the post season. He had a giant burden on his shoulders, yes, however 10/10 not making the post season will take you out of the running for MVP, and rightfully so. With or without Wilson we still couldn't make the playoffs. That fact alone makes the 2017 Seahawks entirely irrelevant. Brady, and Wilson had similar stats, and Brady made it to the post season. You shouldn't be surprised that he got the MVP award.

I disagree with 90% of what you said. But to each there own.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Well, if someone would actually BLOCK for him consistently, he would be able to feel a hell of a lot more comfortable back there. Instead of having to run for his life and/or have that timer in his head that assumes he's about to get crushed by a defensive player who was unblocked, yet again.

 

[Hawk1217]

Well, if someone would actually BLOCK for him consistently, he would be able to feel a hell of a lot more comfortable back there. Instead of having to run for his life and/or have that timer in his head that assumes he's about to get crushed by a defensive player who was unblocked, yet again.

This, ESPN had a stat and sorry no link, was on one of the shows, where it showed the QBs under pressure the quickest and Wilson was #1 buy a huge number of times and by at least a full second on avg. My biggest issue with the whole Brady helps his line thing is, you cant really prove it. I mean is it Brady or is it Bellechek with his play calling and design helping the oline. Since Brady does not call the plays or create them that tells me it is Bellechek. Just as Wilson does not call or design the plays here. How many times have we seen all go routes? A lot they take time. While some would say if it is not there in 2 seconds or less then throw it away, you can do that every time or you don't move the ball. Also how many sacks has Wilson saved, I am thinking way more than he creates, based on the 5 games I rewatched over the weekend.