Russell Wilson "should have won MVP," says Anthony Barr

[SoulfishHawk]

More check downs and screen passes would help this offense immensely. Not to be confused with bubble screens :lol:

 

[chris98251]

More check downs and screen passes would help this offense immensely. Not to be confused with bubble screens :lol:

Bevell had very few usable hot reads also, it was go deep or go no where a lot, Schotty will take 5 if 50 isn't there and Wilson will need to read the field to know which guy is going to be his hot out. Schotty puts a lot more on the QB. if Wilson misses the read he will also hear about it, Schotty doers one thing and that's hold the QB accountable, something Brees commented on in making him better.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Yeah, I've heard that. Should be a good thing, and I'm sure Russ will listen.

 

[IndyHawk]

Put Brady behind our offensive line, and he would have been on IR before the 1st quarter of the season was over. And this team would have been 2-14.

And there's only one defensive stat that matters in the NFL, scoring defense. You can use all the acronyms and formulas you want, but the #1 defense in the NFL isn't the one that has pretty numbers, or the one that allows the fewest yards, it's the one that allows the fewest points.

Russell can only do so much, the rest of the team failed him. He didn't have time to launch deep throws, and it's a wonder he played as well as he did at the end of the season after spending 12 weeks getting hammered, and running for his life. NO QB in the NFL could have done as well as Russell Wilson did last year on a horrid team.

Yet he never complained. I guarantee you Aaron Rodgers or Kaepernick would have been whining by week 5.

The argument "put Brady behind our offensive line" is not any sort of argument. For one it is something that is never going to happen, thus it cannot be proven or disproven. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Secondly, Brady has played behind some bad lines in his career, and he still looked good. Brady, too is good at avoiding pressure, he just does so in a different manner than Russ does. It doesn't show up in the highlight reels, but you can see it if you watch the guy on tape.

Brady avoids pressure by getting rid of the ball quickly, and making subtle little movements in the pocket to set up his blockers. These are skills that Russell Wilson is not very good at. In the pocket he has always looked like a chicken with his head cut off even in some of the better years of O-line play. There was one play in particular that I recall from this season of him sitting in a clean pocket, and then running around in a circle, then unwittingly running into a defenders arms sacking himself. He is quite possibly one of the worst QB's in the NFL when it comes to pocket management. This would sink most QB's careers, but fortunately for Russ he is the greatest scrambler since Fran Tarkenton (I say Fran and not Vick because while Vick was fast, and great runner he wasn't particularly hard to tackle in the pocket). You can also see statistics for how long on average a QB holds onto the ball. In all years except 2015 Russell Wilson was number 1 or 2 in most time with ball in the hands.

Russ is a great QB, and is quite possibly the biggest playmaker in the NFL. The sheer amount of BS he can pull off is staggering. He can pull of feats that no other QB in the NFL could ever pull off. He is the Barry Sanders of the QB world. Like Barry Sanders he has times where he can't get out of his own way (Sanders has the most negative yards and TFL is NFL history). This leads to uneven play, and large periods of games where he is irrelevant. Fortunately for us when he does come to bat he is usually unstoppable. I just wonder what changed in 2015 when compared to the rest of his career. I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.

No. You can easily come to the conclusion Brady would have gotten hurt behind this OL. Definitely couldn’t perform behind this OL. Sure Brady has played behind bad OLs. He has never, however, played behind historically terrible OLs. And for the large portion of his career, he’s played behind league average to top 10 OLs.

Brady can manipulate the pocket, but he is still a statue in the pocket.

You cannot for say "you can easily come to the conclusion" here. It is something that will never happen, and furthermore these players have completely different styles of play. It is not a foregone conclusion either way. Especially since Brady is the type of QB that makes a linemans job very easy. If he sees a mismatch at the LOS he defaults to another play and changes protections, or makes corrections. Brady is also very good at manipulating blockers, and getting the ball out of his hands quickly. As far as injuries go, Brady is the kind of QB that just goes down when he sees there is no chance, or just throws the ball out of bounds. He knows when to hold 'em and he knows when to fold 'em. That combined with his quick release makes it so he is able to play in the NFL at his old age at an elite level without getting injured. Russ on the other hand is the antithesis to the Brady way. Instead of stepping up in the pocket he has a bad habit of retreating back which makes defenders have an easy angle. One of the core skills an offensive lineman uses is just simply deflection. Rerouting the D-lineman past the QB using the D-linemans momentum. This fundamental becomes useless if your QB is hanging 15+ yards past the LOS. Furthermore, Wilson tends to hold onto the ball longer than any QB in the league. A lot of times Brown looked very confused as to where he should be when we traded for him. Wilson is also very bad at managing the pocket. I've seen him manufacture pressure on himself by walking into a defenders area, or not having a good grasp what is going on around him in the pocket. He is able to get around his poor pocket presence by his phenomenal agility, and elusiveness. As I said, it like watching people trying to tackle Barry Sanders.

Did Russell Wilson have to deal with a bad situation? Yes. Can we say for sure that Brady would be better than Wilson in this situation, or perhaps be worse than Wilson in this situation? No. There are good arguments for both sides, and honestly I find it a waste of time since Brady will never play on the 2017 Seahawks. All we're doing is coming up with a lovely piece of fiction that suits our world view here.

Good stuff in these post(s)..Oh I know you guys dislike Brady but the things he does are well explained
in the bolded section,things I'd love RW to do as I have said many times but I won't bore you further.

 

[Hawk1217]

The argument "put Brady behind our offensive line" is not any sort of argument. For one it is something that is never going to happen, thus it cannot be proven or disproven. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Secondly, Brady has played behind some bad lines in his career, and he still looked good. Brady, too is good at avoiding pressure, he just does so in a different manner than Russ does. It doesn't show up in the highlight reels, but you can see it if you watch the guy on tape.

Brady avoids pressure by getting rid of the ball quickly, and making subtle little movements in the pocket to set up his blockers. These are skills that Russell Wilson is not very good at. In the pocket he has always looked like a chicken with his head cut off even in some of the better years of O-line play. There was one play in particular that I recall from this season of him sitting in a clean pocket, and then running around in a circle, then unwittingly running into a defenders arms sacking himself. He is quite possibly one of the worst QB's in the NFL when it comes to pocket management. This would sink most QB's careers, but fortunately for Russ he is the greatest scrambler since Fran Tarkenton (I say Fran and not Vick because while Vick was fast, and great runner he wasn't particularly hard to tackle in the pocket). You can also see statistics for how long on average a QB holds onto the ball. In all years except 2015 Russell Wilson was number 1 or 2 in most time with ball in the hands.

Russ is a great QB, and is quite possibly the biggest playmaker in the NFL. The sheer amount of BS he can pull off is staggering. He can pull of feats that no other QB in the NFL could ever pull off. He is the Barry Sanders of the QB world. Like Barry Sanders he has times where he can't get out of his own way (Sanders has the most negative yards and TFL is NFL history). This leads to uneven play, and large periods of games where he is irrelevant. Fortunately for us when he does come to bat he is usually unstoppable. I just wonder what changed in 2015 when compared to the rest of his career. I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.

No. You can easily come to the conclusion Brady would have gotten hurt behind this OL. Definitely couldn’t perform behind this OL. Sure Brady has played behind bad OLs. He has never, however, played behind historically terrible OLs. And for the large portion of his career, he’s played behind league average to top 10 OLs.

Brady can manipulate the pocket, but he is still a statue in the pocket.

You cannot for say "you can easily come to the conclusion" here. It is something that will never happen, and furthermore these players have completely different styles of play. It is not a foregone conclusion either way. Especially since Brady is the type of QB that makes a linemans job very easy. If he sees a mismatch at the LOS he defaults to another play and changes protections, or makes corrections. Brady is also very good at manipulating blockers, and getting the ball out of his hands quickly. As far as injuries go, Brady is the kind of QB that just goes down when he sees there is no chance, or just throws the ball out of bounds. He knows when to hold 'em and he knows when to fold 'em. That combined with his quick release makes it so he is able to play in the NFL at his old age at an elite level without getting injured. Russ on the other hand is the antithesis to the Brady way. Instead of stepping up in the pocket he has a bad habit of retreating back which makes defenders have an easy angle. One of the core skills an offensive lineman uses is just simply deflection. Rerouting the D-lineman past the QB using the D-linemans momentum. This fundamental becomes useless if your QB is hanging 15+ yards past the LOS. Furthermore, Wilson tends to hold onto the ball longer than any QB in the league. A lot of times Brown looked very confused as to where he should be when we traded for him. Wilson is also very bad at managing the pocket. I've seen him manufacture pressure on himself by walking into a defenders area, or not having a good grasp what is going on around him in the pocket. He is able to get around his poor pocket presence by his phenomenal agility, and elusiveness. As I said, it like watching people trying to tackle Barry Sanders.

Did Russell Wilson have to deal with a bad situation? Yes. Can we say for sure that Brady would be better than Wilson in this situation, or perhaps be worse than Wilson in this situation? No. There are good arguments for both sides, and honestly I find it a waste of time since Brady will never play on the 2017 Seahawks. All we're doing is coming up with a lovely piece of fiction that suits our world view here.

Good stuff in these post(s)..Oh I know you guys dislike Brady but the things he does are well explained
in the bolded section,things I'd love RW to do as I have said many times but I won't bore you further.

Opinions vary,

 

[Steve2222]

Wilson makes his OL look bad. I’ve heard it all now lol.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Exactly. Well, you know, everything else is Wilson's fault so.........
Now, it's his fault the guys in front of him can't block :34853_doh:

 

[Hawk1217]

Exactly. Well, you know, everything else is Wilson's fault so.........
Now, it's his fault the guys in front of him can't block :34853_doh:

Some just live in an alternate reality to the truth.

 

[adeltaY]

Wilson makes his OL look bad. I’ve heard it all now lol.

It's true sometimes and it's also true the OL looks plenty bad entirely on its own most of the time. For example, Wilson takes really deep drops and that makes it difficult for the OL to simply push the rushers around the edge of the pocket because the pocket is so deep.

 

[Hawk1217]

Wilson makes his OL look bad. I’ve heard it all now lol.

It's true sometimes and it's also true the OL looks plenty bad entirely on its own most of the time. For example, Wilson takes really deep drops and that makes it difficult for the OL to simply push the rushers around the edge of the pocket because the pocket is so deep.

The problem with that is you are presuming several things: 1- he only does this in the games, given they practice all this against our defense they should know how to block for this. 2 that he is the one deciding how far to drop. Has it occurred to you the coaches are having him do this to give him an extra second because they don't trust the line or they called long developing plays? That is the biggest issue with most of what is posted negatively on Wilson it's all assumptions, with little to support it. An example was one a read before I joined were some said he cant throw over the middle, with any accuracy. Meanwhile, the facts showed he had a high completion % and Qb rating over the middle. The facts are he has played behind one of the worse pass blocking oline in the league every year. Trying to put that on him is just wrong.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

It's Russell Wilson. Global Warming is his fault as well :lol:

 

[IndyHawk]

Wilson makes his OL look bad. I’ve heard it all now lol.

It's true sometimes and it's also true the OL looks plenty bad entirely on its own most of the time. For example, Wilson takes really deep drops and that makes it difficult for the OL to simply push the rushers around the edge of the pocket because the pocket is so deep.

The problem with that is you are presuming several things: 1- he only does this in the games, given they practice all this against our defense they should know how to block for this. 2 that he is the one deciding how far to drop. Has it occurred to you the coaches are having him do this to give him an extra second because they don't trust the line or they called long developing plays? That is the biggest issue with most of what is posted negatively on Wilson it's all assumptions, with little to support it. An example was one a read before I joined were some said he cant throw over the middle, with any accuracy. Meanwhile, the facts showed he had a high completion % and Qb rating over the middle. The facts are he has played behind one of the worse pass blocking oline in the league every year. Trying to put that on him is just wrong.

It was the short passes over the middle that some of us are bringing up
and there has been graphics posted on here to that in many different threads
with RW in it so you can see them in archives.

 

[Hawk1217]

Wilson makes his OL look bad. I’ve heard it all now lol.

It's true sometimes and it's also true the OL looks plenty bad entirely on its own most of the time. For example, Wilson takes really deep drops and that makes it difficult for the OL to simply push the rushers around the edge of the pocket because the pocket is so deep.

The problem with that is you are presuming several things: 1- he only does this in the games, given they practice all this against our defense they should know how to block for this. 2 that he is the one deciding how far to drop. Has it occurred to you the coaches are having him do this to give him an extra second because they don't trust the line or they called long developing plays? That is the biggest issue with most of what is posted negatively on Wilson it's all assumptions, with little to support it. An example was one a read before I joined were some said he cant throw over the middle, with any accuracy. Meanwhile, the facts showed he had a high completion % and Qb rating over the middle. The facts are he has played behind one of the worse pass blocking oline in the league every year. Trying to put that on him is just wrong.

It was the short passes over the middle that some of us are bringing up
and there has been graphics posted on here to that in many different threads
with RW in it so you can see them in archives.

And again all the ones I saw made it clear he does, can and has a high completion % and Qb rating doing it. Now are there some QBs who do it more...yes, are there some who do it less...yes. Also that thread, the one I read, perfectly illustrated my point. First, it was he can't, Then when it was proved he can, then it went to but not very accurately, then that was proved wrong, then it became not for a high Qb rating. Then that was proven wrong, it was changed to well not as much as other QBs and that is Wilson problem. The lengths that some want to go to bag on the guy is mind-boggling. I mean Yeah he is not perfect no QB is to include Rodgers and Brady. But the constant, almost obsessive by some to specifically make it clear Wilson is not great, or not that great, or has faults is well pathetic. Point in case the oline, every Qb in the league at times hurts and helps their oline in different ways, to include Brady. However the great ones, Wilson included, do a lot more helping than hurting.

 

[adeltaY]

I agree RW doesn't have issues throwing over the middle, short, whatever. I think he's shown he can make those throws so we are in concert there. With respect to the deep dropback, it could definitely be a coaching issue, we will see if it improves with the new regime.

He does have faults, though I think that's problem #5 or #6 in our list of offensive woes so I'm not worried. This was not a great season for him though. Throwing 21 interceptable passes from week 1-8 and 32 overall for the season is atypical and not good. I'm confident with Schotty coaching him, he will get that under control.

 

[Hawk1217]

I agree RW doesn't have issues throwing over the middle, short, whatever. I think he's shown he can make those throws so we are in concert there. With respect to the deep dropback, it could definitely be a coaching issue, we will see if it improves with the new regime.

He does have faults, though I think that's problem #5 or #6 in our list of offensive woes so I'm not worried. This was not a great season for him though. Throwing 21 interceptable passes from week 1-8 and 32 overall for the season is atypical and not good. I'm confident with Schotty coaching him, he will get that under control.

Agreed on all front except, but now we are looking at interceptable balls, not just Ints. So one, were did you get that number? 2 how does it compare to other Qbs. If we are looking at those are we also going to look at the actual Int that was because the receiver mishandled a good pass, or the drops and add them back to the numbers.

So Footballoutsiders.com has data on this Wilson had 11 int during the Season his adjusted was 15 this included drops by the Defender, interceptable balls ect. That's only 4 more, and far from the 32 you listed. Heck Bradys adjusted was 13 so Wilson is in good company

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/adjusted-interceptions-2017

 

[adeltaY]

I got mine from Cian Fahey's 2018 QB catalogue. He had at least all of the eight from the Washington game on his twitter feed in gif form as well as I think the rest from weeks 1-8, but he deleted his twitter so I can't pull up the thread with the Wilson INTable passes. I watched all the gifs and all of them looked like interceptable passes to me. I wish every interceptable play was logged with a timestamp so we could check for ourselves, but neither FO nor Fahey made that available. Not sure what the difference in criteria is between his and FO, especially since he used to work for FO. For what it's worth, he had Brady credited with 33 interceptable passes, but since Brady threw more passes, his rate is 4.6% as opposed to Wilson's 5.8%.

I'm trying to find more sources, but it's difficult. The best I could do was PFF, which has a turnover-worth throw%, which I'd imagine is just interceptable passes. They had Wilson at 2.5%, which ranked 21st in the league. FO also has him at 2.5%, but that ranks him 12th by their charging. Fahey has him at 27th in INTable pass rate. Not sure who to go by, if the numbers were different but the rankings were similar we could write it off as a systematic error that inflates/deflates the absolute but not relative values, but it ain't so.

 

[chris98251]

The difference between a interception or a tip and pick is inches in the NFL many times, many are on receivers as also,especially body catchers where a ball will bounce and or hit a pad because they let the ball get to them versus guiding to them with their hands.

 

[Hawk1217]

I got mine from Cian Fahey's 2018 QB catalogue. He had at least all of the eight from the Washington game on his twitter feed in gif form as well as I think the rest from weeks 1-8, but he deleted his twitter so I can't pull up the thread with the Wilson INTable passes. I watched all the gifs and all of them looked like interceptable passes to me. I wish every interceptable play was logged with a timestamp so we could check for ourselves, but neither FO nor Fahey made that available. Not sure what the difference in criteria is between his and FO, especially since he used to work for FO. For what it's worth, he had Brady credited with 33 interceptable passes, but since Brady threw more passes, his rate is 4.6% as opposed to Wilson's 5.8%.

I'm trying to find more sources, but it's difficult. The best I could do was PFF, which has a turnover-worth throw%, which I'd imagine is just interceptable passes. They had Wilson at 2.5%, which ranked 21st in the league. FO also has him at 2.5%, but that ranks him 12th by their charging. Fahey has him at 27th in INTable pass rate. Not sure who to go by, if the numbers were different but the rankings were similar we could write it off as a systematic error that inflates/deflates the absolute but not relative values, but it ain't so.

To be honest this is really a nothing burger as there are a lot of variables unaccounted for like, receivers running the wrong route, deflected passes, the score and when you through etc etc. This is not something we should even be worried about, I mean whats next how many yards an RB can get if they carried the ball in the other hand. If we are going to do interceptable balls, then we need to do catchable balls, YAC available, you know where there was YAC but the receiver decided to just go to the ground. At some point enough with the would of, should of, could of, stats. Let's go with what actually was, 11 ints far from a bad number given he also led the league in TDs.

 

[adeltaY]

I get where you're coming from, but those concerns shouldn't discourage us from contextualizing a raw stats like number of INTs or number of TDs. For example, with INTs you mention we can't know playcalls, WRs running the wrong route, etc. This is true, and there will always be unknowns factors with regards to football analysis, but that shouldn't discourage us from filling in what gaps we can to arrive at a better understanding of what really happened. The INTable pass stat takes into account non-QB INTs (tipped balls, WR ran wrong route (have to use understanding of the game/QB to take a best guess at this), WR dropped the ball, etc.) that count in favor of the QB as well as balls the defender should have caught but didn't, which would count against the QB. That gives us so much more info about what happened than just the INT number.

Let's take QB X and QB Y. Both started 16 games and had similar pass attempt numbers (small amount of context to make this comparison possible). QB X threw 8 INTs and QB Y threw 13 INTs. Who's better at taking care of the ball? Most would say QB X. Now, say we look at INTable passes. QB X had 12 picks dropped by defenders and QB Y had 3 dropped by defenders. QB Y is close to even with QB X, maybe a little safer with the ball. It's not a would have, could have, should have stat. It is real and provides context for what actually happened on the field.

Yes, we can't know exactly what happened with the route, BUT the announcers often suss it out immediately, as do the film guys after. Coaches/QBs often detail why a certain INT happened in post-game pressers, and you can often tell in-game by the reaction from the QB to the WR after the pick (Rivers is great at showing this). Not an exact science, but it's much more informative than just looking at INT numbers in a void.

 

[Hawk1217]

I get where you're coming from, but those concerns shouldn't discourage us from contextualizing a raw stats like number of INTs or number of TDs. For example, with INTs you mention we can't know playcalls, WRs running the wrong route, etc. This is true, and there will always be unknowns factors with regards to football analysis, but that shouldn't discourage us from filling in what gaps we can to arrive at a better understanding of what really happened. The INTable pass stat takes into account non-QB INTs (tipped balls, WR ran wrong route (have to use understanding of the game/QB to take a best guess at this), WR dropped the ball, etc.) that count in favor of the QB as well as balls the defender should have caught but didn't, which would count against the QB. That gives us so much more info about what happened than just the INT number.

Let's take QB X and QB Y. Both started 16 games and had similar pass attempt numbers (small amount of context to make this comparison possible). QB X threw 8 INTs and QB Y threw 13 INTs. Who's better at taking care of the ball? Most would say QB X. Now, say we look at INTable passes. QB X had 12 picks dropped by defenders and QB Y had 3 dropped by defenders. QB Y is close to even with QB X, maybe a little safer with the ball. It's not a would have, could have, should have stat. It is real and provides context for what actually happened on the field.

Yes, we can't know exactly what happened with the route, BUT the announcers often suss it out immediately, as do the film guys after. Coaches/QBs often detail why a certain INT happened in post-game pressers, and you can often tell in-game by the reaction from the QB to the WR after the pick (Rivers is great at showing this). Not an exact science, but it's much more informative than just looking at INT numbers in a void.

At some point, you get into analysis paralysis and it is worthless. As I said worrying about interceptable passes is silly as we are playing the what if game. If that is where we are going to be able to come up with a negative about a player, any player then some of us need to look at ourselves and decide what our motivations are.