Seahawks v.s. 49ers (age related)

[loafoftatupu]

The thing is that every year since Carroll took over rookies have started. Surely the number of places to put them run out.

I certainly can't say that any player the Niners drafted suck, at least not yet, but the Hawks have succeeded with rookies being injected into the roster. The Niners haven't established that yet. Take Jenkins for example. He was supposed to be the replacement for Crabs when he went down. He ended up not being a Niner. Or Vance Mc. He was outplayed by his counterpart in College that was drafted much later. Reid did OK, but that is even still developing.

This year Harbadouche has no choice but to start rookies. Maybe all of the draft picks work out for SF, but there will be a dropoff.

 

[Marvin49]

The thing is that every year since Carroll took over rookies have started. Surely the number of places to put them run out.

I certainly can't say that any player the Niners drafted suck, at least not yet, but the Hawks have succeeded with rookies being injected into the roster. The Niners haven't established that yet. Take Jenkins for example. He was supposed to be the replacement for Crabs when he went down. He ended up not being a Niner. Or Vance Mc. He was outplayed by his counterpart in College that was drafted much later. Reid did OK, but that is even still developing.

This year Harbadouche has no choice but to start rookies. Maybe all of the draft picks work out for SF, but there will be a dropoff.

Oi. The. "Harbaugh won't start rookies" thing again. Ya know what? Neither would Carroll if he didn't have to. As people like to point out so much on this site, There were a lot of good players on the team when Harbaugh took over. Ie, less spots for a rookie to contribute. Still, while he didn't start, Aldon played ALOT. Reid did better than "OK". Culliver played quite a bit in the nickel. For the past several seasons the 49ers have been known as the best roster in the NFL. What glaring hole was there to fill with a rookie?

You guys are seeing it now. Seattle now has a damn good roster due to great drafting the past few years. Do you see a number of holes to fill? The difference is that the 49ers are farther along in that process.

Another note on 2012 to help illustrate that point. Seattle was looking for starters. They had themselves a tremendous draft and players had an opportunity to contribute. In that same draft, the. 49ers had what was widely considered the best roster in the NFL and knew all those picks couldn't make the roster. After making a clear mistake on Jenkins, they spent the rest of the day trading down and into the 2013 draft (which is one of the reasons they have had so many picks the last two years and also provided them the pick they used to move up for Eric Reid).

The point is that they were very different teams with very different intents that day. Niners missed badly. Of that there is no question, but it's not like they were on level playing fields.

 

[Giedi]

The way the 49ers have drafted since 2012 makes me happy. That 2012 draft class was a real failure for them; not a single player has started a game and only two players from that class remain on the team (Joe Looney, who has played in four total games, and LaMichael James, who had just 12 rushing attempts last year).

My two favorite picks from their poor 2013 class are obviously B.J. Daniels and Vance McDonald. Daniels was released and picked up by us, and now he's showing that he may just be our backup QB of the future. Ironically, Daniels is one of their better picks from the last three years. McDonald, a supposed receiving TE, might have the worst hands of any receiver in the league with multiple drops in every practice. Meanwhile, I love the fact that McDonald's teammate, Luke Willson, was selected three rounds lower than McDonald, but has outplayed him, while developing into a legit weapon for us with excellent hands.

The 49ers' 2014 class is full of weak, injury-prone prospects. Their First Round strong safety prospect managed just nine reps on the bench press and has missed every practice with a foot injury. He also had shoulder problems in college that kept him out of games. Like their previous two drafts, count me as unimpressed.

I think BJ Daniels is the perfect backup QB for Wilson. They are so similar. The 2012 was one of the weakest drafts imaginable. The 49ers just didn't do a good job at all in 2012. However - we pulled a page out of seattle's draft playbook by getting two decent UDFA's that year. (Dobbs and Ian Williams)

Never heard of em.

No problem, wouldn't expect you to know.

 

[chris98251]

The thing is that every year since Carroll took over rookies have started. Surely the number of places to put them run out.

I certainly can't say that any player the Niners drafted suck, at least not yet, but the Hawks have succeeded with rookies being injected into the roster. The Niners haven't established that yet. Take Jenkins for example. He was supposed to be the replacement for Crabs when he went down. He ended up not being a Niner. Or Vance Mc. He was outplayed by his counterpart in College that was drafted much later. Reid did OK, but that is even still developing.

This year Harbadouche has no choice but to start rookies. Maybe all of the draft picks work out for SF, but there will be a dropoff.

Dropoff in my mind is the rookie learning curve if they hit on everything, they may be a equal or better player at some point but overcoming veteran savvy takes a while, when you have to think you play slower, advantage veterans. Unless the skill set is so bad from the existing players that anything talanted in their place is an upgrade, like we were looking at initially in many positions.

 

[Marvin49]

The thing is that every year since Carroll took over rookies have started. Surely the number of places to put them run out.

I certainly can't say that any player the Niners drafted suck, at least not yet, but the Hawks have succeeded with rookies being injected into the roster. The Niners haven't established that yet. Take Jenkins for example. He was supposed to be the replacement for Crabs when he went down. He ended up not being a Niner. Or Vance Mc. He was outplayed by his counterpart in College that was drafted much later. Reid did OK, but that is even still developing.

This year Harbadouche has no choice but to start rookies. Maybe all of the draft picks work out for SF, but there will be a dropoff.

Dropoff in my mind is the rookie learning curve if they hit on everything, they may be a equal or better player at some point but overcoming veteran savvy takes a while, when you have to think you play slower, advantage veterans. Unless the skill set is so bad from the existing players that anything talanted in their place is an upgrade, like we were looking at initially in many positions.

BTW...exactly what rookies do you think are going to start?

Ward will challenge for the nickel and Hyde/Lattimore/Hunter will compete behind Frank...

...but I'm not seeing what rookies must start. Martin will compete with Kilgore, but again, there are no glaring holes to fill with rookies.

 

[Giedi]

The thing is that every year since Carroll took over rookies have started. Surely the number of places to put them run out.

I certainly can't say that any player the Niners drafted suck, at least not yet, but the Hawks have succeeded with rookies being injected into the roster. The Niners haven't established that yet. Take Jenkins for example. He was supposed to be the replacement for Crabs when he went down. He ended up not being a Niner. Or Vance Mc. He was outplayed by his counterpart in College that was drafted much later. Reid did OK, but that is even still developing.

This year Harbadouche has no choice but to start rookies. Maybe all of the draft picks work out for SF, but there will be a dropoff.

I'm really intrigued by Jesse Williams. Looks like he has a very similar situation to the 49ers Tank Carradine. If Jesse Williams pans out, your defense will be that much tougher to deal with.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Career AV by Draft Classes (per PFREF.com)

2013 CLASS
SF0: 12 AV
Did Not Include Marcus Cooper (KC) who has 4 AV

SEA: 9 AV

2012 CLASS
SEA: 83 AV
Did not include Jaye Howard (KC) /Winston Guy (JAX) who both have 1 AV each.

SF0: 2 AV
Did Not Include AJ Jenkins (KC) /Cam Johnson (IND) who both have 1 AV each.

2011 Class
SEA: 96 AV
DNI Kris Durham (DET) who has 5 AV.

SFO: 70 AV

2010 Class
SFO: 126 AV
Counted Kyle Williams, Phillip Adams, and Taylor Mays AV as Niners.

SEA: 117 AV

TOTAL
SF0: 210 AV
SEA: 305 AV

Seahawks have a 95 AV advantage, later I'll research contributing UDFAs from '10 to '13 and see if that makes the SFO gap better or worst.

Those are a bunch of pretty numbers but...

1) I got no clue what AV means or who gets to decide who is worth what.

2) Most of the difference is in the 2012 draft which I've already said was a bust.

3) It has no bearing on anything since I wasn't comparing the 49ers and Seahawks.

Idk I wasn't trying to say SEA > SFO #SuckIt... I was merely posting an neutral metric that appropriates "Approximate Value" to each player compared to their peers.

If you want to read more: http://www.sports-reference.com/blog/approximate-value/

If you want to read more

 

[rideaducati]

I think a lot of the difference is in coaching styles. The GMs may both be good, but because of how the coaches play the players, it just seems that Schneider is doing a much better job.

Pete puts rookies in a rotation right away, even though they aren't as good as the starters. They are put in when they expect a certain play based on down and distance. They get experience in the event a starter goes down. We've seen it at every position. Once called upon in games, they seem to be more prepared and many have excelled. Pete seems to get every player ready so that when injuries occur, the backup can come in and be at least serviceable because he has in-game experience.

The only rookie on defense that started every game as rookie was Bobby Wagner. All others that were drafted were brought in slowly. Kam Chancellor didn't start a single game as a rookie, but played in every game. Earl Thomas, same thing. KJ Wright, Bruce Irvin...the list goes on and every one of them was ready when called upon.

Pete has done the same on offense with the exception of Wilson and Okung. The offensive line even has a rotation of sorts. I think that is because they weren't liking what they had and were experimenting to find the best guys.

Every position has a backup that has played and not just because of injury or just when a guy needs to catch his breath... They have been put in when a certain situation has come up and I think that has a lot to do with why the team seems to be so deep with guys that can play.

Pete also did this at USC which worked well because he didn't have players for more than a few years.

Harbaugh uses fewer players in his rotations and gives backups fewer snaps. I know this because of snap count totals.

 

[FreshlySnipes]

Current roster for the Seahawks:

QB JACKSON (31)
FB ROBINSON (31) *likely to retire
LB HARWELL (32)
DT WILLIAMS (33)
P RYAN (32)

F
*Farwell... Heath Farwell

 

[RichNhansom]

I think a lot of the difference is in coaching styles. The GMs may both be good, but because of how the coaches play the players, it just seems that Schneider is doing a much better job.

Pete puts rookies in a rotation right away, even though they aren't as good as the starters. They are put in when they expect a certain play based on down and distance. They get experience in the event a starter goes down. We've seen it at every position. Once called upon in games, they seem to be more prepared and many have excelled. Pete seems to get every player ready so that when injuries occur, the backup can come in and be at least serviceable because he has in-game experience.

The only rookie on defense that started every game as rookie was Bobby Wagner. All others that were drafted were brought in slowly. Kam Chancellor didn't start a single game as a rookie, but played in every game. Earl Thomas, same thing. KJ Wright, Bruce Irvin...the list goes on and every one of them was ready when called upon.

Pete has done the same on offense with the exception of Wilson and Okung. The offensive line even has a rotation of sorts. I think that is because they weren't liking what they had and were experimenting to find the best guys.

Every position has a backup that has played and not just because of injury or just when a guy needs to catch his breath... They have been put in when a certain situation has come up and I think that has a lot to do with why the team seems to be so deep with guys that can play.

Pete also did this at USC which worked well because he didn't have players for more than a few years.

Harbaugh uses fewer players in his rotations and gives backups fewer snaps. I know this because of snap count totals.

That's an excellent post and I think it is a big reason they are so competitive in practice. Every player on the roster knows they will likely see playing time. Some will see significant amounts. If they are not ready when called upon they will look stupid and possibly drop back in rotation giving way to the next guy who is hungry in practice just waiting for his shot to prove he is better.

There is a down side though as we witnessed. When you are going through 300+ roster transactions an off season players feel a massive need to get an edge and that is what led to some of those PED suspensions. The fact that all but one player that received a suspension is gone including guys who were popped for pot is proof it will not be tolerated. You may not be released immediately but when it comes time to make the cut the next year or when your contract is up it will be a much tougher hill to climb than not having that mark on your resume to begin with. Making no attempt what so ever to resign BB or Thurmond, two very good football players sends a pretty clear message and that was just for pot.