So I'm Listening to Millen This Morning

[Year of The Hawk]

Even a vet or ex coach can give opinion on the play but unless they actually know the playbook being used in the game then it is just conjecture. Yes an educated guess but still a guess. Plus the people commenting usually have a football background in one position. How much do they really know about other positions and assignments. Remember when Pete said he wanted to give Russell a advanced degree in reading defenses. Do you think an ex running back can tell you accurately what a DB should be doing? There was that one play last season where Kam appeared to get burned for a TD. EVERYONE thought it was him. It was revealed in the offseason that it was not his assignment on that play. Every team and playbook is different. It also seems to get more complex every year. Remember people these peoples jobs are to talk about this stuff. They will never admit they don't know for sure what is happening on every play.

No offense YOH but it's only a guess before the play, after it has been run you know exactly what the play was and what specific defense was employed to stop it. In spite of the typical fan's belief that there is an endless amount of creativity in offensive plays there really is only so much you can do. This becomes even more apparent in the NFL where the game reaches its pinnacle of speed and power. Try to get too cute and you will get burned.

As for players knowing other players positions and assignments your example may be valid but not as that applies to quarterbacks. Quarterbacks have to account for every single player on the defense and the offense. The longer they play in the NFL the greater that knowledge becomes. That doesn't mean that they will always be great, but I can assure you they know what is going on. If you need proof of that just go and listen to Brock over at KVI, he, like Millen, can break down plays as they really are, not like the typical fan's "conjecture" as you say.

Takes more than that to offend me I do agree QB's hare more depth of the game. But even they do not know what is happening every play or else they would be unstoppable. But even after a play we still don't know who was assigned to do what. Maybe someone ran the wrong route. Maybe someone covered differently and someone else covered up. Sometimes a TE gives a chip block and we yell when that guy sacks the QB but he was only supposed to chip block. Looks can be deceiving. As far as O-line goes it is even harder to tell. I am not saying nothing can ever be broken down but these "experts" are often wrong and the fans even more so. And IMHO the game is very complex and getting more so every year.

As far as talent evaluators I just have one example of a "pros" opinion. Ron Jaworski (AKA... JAWS). About as bad as they get but he is a national guy. He wont stop talking enough to hear the slop coming out of his mouth.
I will admit talent evaluation is probably the hardest part of the game and even the best get it wrong more than right. But Jaws is comically bad.

 

[McGruff]

It's funny. Three weeks ago, if you asked who our most solid lineman would be, Gilliam would have been the overwhelming favorite.

I never for a second bought into this "he is a better fit at left tackle" stuff. A mediocre RT doesn't become a solid LT. I would be willing to bet that it has never happened.

Here's a replay of the game w/the Minne announcers. At 1:50 left in the first qtr Gilliam sets up deep and the Vikings DE pushes Gilliam nearly into RW causing him to retreat left and get sacked by Griffen. That was the second sack, on the third sack with 11:44 left in the second qtr Gilliam is seen pointing to the Viking's LB and then starts to set up for him and then moves over to let the LB run right by him to sack RW. There was some talk about the RB's missing blocks but I don't see how they could have been in position on this play where they are on the other side of the pass rusher. Not really sure what happened there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4ANE9bIcQc

Typically if a lineman is pointing he's signaling to the RB to pick up the blitzing LB. I can't see the play though, cause the video is private.

 

[Laloosh]

Regarding the OP: I can't really speak to Gilliam's depth when he drops back to pass (block) but it's obvious to my untrained eye, that he really struggles to get any push in the run game. It was obvious in 2015 and while I haven't spent any time re-watching the preseason games, it was noticeable again. I worry that he'll continue to give ground and we'll see a fair amount of plays with our RBs not having to worry about an OLB or DE sealing the edge because Gilliam will do it on his own.

Other areas that worry me: Bobby being out of position in the passing game and not being able to anticipate and cut off some of those shallow crosses and slants on 3rd down. I'm not sure if it's partially a product of the defense that was called on individual plays or if it's poor instincts on his part but I worry about it.

Also would like to see better interior pass rush on passing downs. We haven't seen much of Bennett but I really hope that we're not completely dependent on he and Avril to carry 99% of the load again. We need to get back to where we can rush four and get home. Last year we had to do a fair amount of blitzing with Bobby and K.J. to generate pressure.

 

[Largent80]

In the end, it's just a game, and also in the end, we are stuck with who we have and for the most part, I like who we have.

Just a little concerned about the LB position. No sense worrying about the OL. It would be hard for this years version to be worse than last years.

 

[dogorama]

It's funny. Three weeks ago, if you asked who our most solid lineman would be, Gilliam would have been the overwhelming favorite.

I never for a second bought into this "he is a better fit at left tackle" stuff. A mediocre RT doesn't become a solid LT. I would be willing to bet that it has never happened.

Here's a replay of the game w/the Minne announcers. At 1:50 left in the first qtr Gilliam sets up deep and the Vikings DE pushes Gilliam nearly into RW causing him to retreat left and get sacked by Griffen. That was the second sack, on the third sack with 11:44 left in the second qtr Gilliam is seen pointing to the Viking's LB and then starts to set up for him and then moves over to let the LB run right by him to sack RW. There was some talk about the RB's missing blocks but I don't see how they could have been in position on this play where they are on the other side of the pass rusher. Not really sure what happened there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4ANE9bIcQc

Typically if a lineman is pointing he's signaling to the RB to pick up the blitzing LB. I can't see the play though, cause the video is private.

That's correct but the call is play action w/a fullback and running back lined up on the opposite side to not be able to be in position to block. I have to go back and look at it, something's not right there.

As for the video I just went to youtube and typed in "seahawks vs vikings full game" - scroll down and you will see the preseason game.

Edit: I went back and looked at it and it does appear that Gilliam is pointing out the LB for AC to block, but like I said, it's play action and in addition to him being on the wrong side of RW, he gets too far into the line to be able to cut off the LB. After the play RW points at AC and he shakes his head as if to acknowledge it was his fault. On the next play AC lets a well-thrown ball deflect off his hands right into a defender's hands. Luckily it isn't intercepted but NOT a good series for AC all the way around.

As it turns out it isn't Gilliam's fault but something else is wrong, I can only guess that AC is lined up wrong and should have been on the other side of RW. It's also really hard for me to understand how you expect a back to protect on play action. The Vikings were clearly showing blitz and RW should have audibled the fake into a handoff.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

Millen has forgotten more about football than any one of us will ever know. His personnel evaluations around draft time aren't particularly accurate, but he gives his honest opinion about players during camp and the season. I don't always agree with him, but I've learned a lot by listening to him.

Seahawks.net logic...
Positive Seahawks opinion = intelligent analysis
Perception of negative Seahawks opinion = worthless hack

That's not how I see it, although I can't speak for anyone else.

He was emphatically negative about Carroll to begin with because PC replaced his BFF. His 'analysis' was influenced by an enormous vested interest. It led to his comical review of Russell Wilson -- which was inept in every way -- and his proclamation that he'd eat a microphone if he succeeded in the league.

Of course Carroll has gone on to become the most successful Seahawks Head Coach in franchise history and Wilson the best quarterback.

There's no doubting that, like all former pro-QB's, he knows a lot more than the average man about X's and O's and the day-to-day of being on a team. That doesn't automatically make him a very good judge of talent, character or fit. If he's describing why a formation works or why a TE exploits Seattle's defense, excellent. But is he a good evaluator? Jury's out, big time.

You know what cracks me up about fan message boards? Posts like yours. Where did I, or anyone else say he was a good evaluator of talent? The original post stated that he was concerned about Gilliam because of his deep drops. He didn't say that Gilliam didn't have skills or was a bad player, he simply said that his tendency to set up so deep was worrisome. Go back and watch that game, particularly the clock references I listed and tell me there isn't something there worth at least considering.

It is easy to diss someone because they weren't right about a particular player or coach but the fact is the best NFL talent evaluators in the world aren't really very accurate at it. Look at the draft, the best bets are first rounders but even they don't succeed 70% of the time. You go down the rounds and that percentage drops dramatically with each successive round. So, go ahead and dig Millen for his misses, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Fans are like gamblers, they only tell you about their wins and they are experts at revisionist history.

You know what it boils down to? Extreme homerism where a fan(atic) can't stand to hear anything but positives about their team so they attack the source. It's Rovian politics for the sport's fan.

But please, don't shoot me, I'm just the piano player.

What a load of hot air. I wasn't even talking to you. To call me an 'extreme homer' is laughable. You're starting to sound like Mora and Millen's 'lucky Pierre'.

I was responding to someone else who suggested Seahawks.net just rejects any form of criticism. My response included specific reasons as to why I don't think that is the case.

 

[dogorama]

Millen has forgotten more about football than any one of us will ever know. His personnel evaluations around draft time aren't particularly accurate, but he gives his honest opinion about players during camp and the season. I don't always agree with him, but I've learned a lot by listening to him.

Seahawks.net logic...
Positive Seahawks opinion = intelligent analysis
Perception of negative Seahawks opinion = worthless hack

That's not how I see it, although I can't speak for anyone else.

He was emphatically negative about Carroll to begin with because PC replaced his BFF. His 'analysis' was influenced by an enormous vested interest. It led to his comical review of Russell Wilson -- which was inept in every way -- and his proclamation that he'd eat a microphone if he succeeded in the league.

Of course Carroll has gone on to become the most successful Seahawks Head Coach in franchise history and Wilson the best quarterback.

There's no doubting that, like all former pro-QB's, he knows a lot more than the average man about X's and O's and the day-to-day of being on a team. That doesn't automatically make him a very good judge of talent, character or fit. If he's describing why a formation works or why a TE exploits Seattle's defense, excellent. But is he a good evaluator? Jury's out, big time.

You know what cracks me up about fan message boards? Posts like yours. Where did I, or anyone else say he was a good evaluator of talent? The original post stated that he was concerned about Gilliam because of his deep drops. He didn't say that Gilliam didn't have skills or was a bad player, he simply said that his tendency to set up so deep was worrisome. Go back and watch that game, particularly the clock references I listed and tell me there isn't something there worth at least considering.

It is easy to diss someone because they weren't right about a particular player or coach but the fact is the best NFL talent evaluators in the world aren't really very accurate at it. Look at the draft, the best bets are first rounders but even they don't succeed 70% of the time. You go down the rounds and that percentage drops dramatically with each successive round. So, go ahead and dig Millen for his misses, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Fans are like gamblers, they only tell you about their wins and they are experts at revisionist history.

You know what it boils down to? Extreme homerism where a fan(atic) can't stand to hear anything but positives about their team so they attack the source. It's Rovian politics for the sport's fan.

But please, don't shoot me, I'm just the piano player.

What a load of hot air. I wasn't even talking to you. To call me an 'extreme homer' is laughable. You're starting to sound like Mora and Millen's 'lucky Pierre'.

I was responding to someone else who suggested Seahawks.net just rejects any form of criticism. My response included specific reasons as to why I'm sceptical of Millen's overall analysis.

You make it sound like Millen was alone in his criticism, that's just not true. There was widespread criticism and the Seahawks were heavily criticised for both their pick of RW, and their hiring of PC. Conventional wisdom at the time said that PC couldn't coach in the pros and that he was just running away from a program that got caught w/their hand in cookie jar. We all know what conventional wisdom on RW was.

 

[AgentDib]

If Millen criticizes the Cougs from time to time that's just because he watches college football. Is that relevant to our OL situation?

In my view health is one of the primary determinants of line success and yet is constantly overlooked. It's unclear whether Gilliam is playing RT because of his own LT play in practice or because of Webb's health and performance at RT. Guys like Gilliam and Britt who have shown durability are more valuable than the typical fan consensus. It doesn't matter how good you are if you can't suit up on Sundays and the team has to put in a backup instead.

 

[kf3339]

Yes, this has been a weird thread so far. Some posters went off topic, but not the first time it's happened on this board.

Back on topic, for me I am most concerned about the interior DT positions. More specifically the 3tech in our base D. I know PC likes Rubin, but I have never been a really big fan. I get we had to keep one of the two (Rubin or Mebane), but to me they were both pure run stuffers with absolutely no interior pass rush at all.

With Reed I hope he can develop at least some pass rush moves just to keep the opposing O honest. But I really hope Jefferson or Hill can really come on strong and supplant Rubin as the 3tech starter this season. If not then McDaniel can be the guy who pushes Rubin to a backup role behind Reed. I just think interior DT push would really take our Defense to another level we haven't seen yet with a PC team.

 

[dogorama]

Yes, this has been a weird thread so far. Some posters went off topic, but not the first time it's happened on this board.

Back on topic, for me I am most concerned about the interior DT positions. More specifically the 3tech in our base D. I know PC likes Rubin, but I have never been a really big fan. I get we had to keep one of the two (Rubin or Mebane), but to me they were both pure run stuffers with absolutely no interior pass rush at all.

With Reed I hope he can develop at least some pass rush moves just to keep the opposing O honest. But I really hope Jefferson or Hill can really come on strong and supplant Rubin as the 3tech starter this season. If not then McDaniel can be the guy who pushes Rubin to a backup role behind Reed. I just think interior DT push would really take our Defense to another level we haven't seen yet with a PC team.

I think you have hit upon something that is very critical to our defense. In another post I mentioned that an interior pass rusher was at the top of my wish list. We have been satisfied w/just stuffing the run in the middle and while we have had a lot of success w/that, we are vulnerable when the exterior pass rush breaks down.

I just hope that offensive tackles don't replace that wish list.

 

[Seymour]

For the life of me I don't know how his criticism of the Cougs has anything to do w/the Seahawks, but I will say that after being a starting QB at a major college program and playing in the NFL for 10 years he knows more about football than every single poster on this site.

And this prevents him from being a) ever wrong or b) a troll?

It's a shame all those years of experience didn't save him from having to eat a microphone back in 2012.

Nobody said he's never wrong, just a valid opinion on the subject. :177692: