The end of the twelves

[Jazzhawk]

Frankly, I'm fine getting rid of it. I'm not a 12th man, I'm a Seahawks fan. That I perform the task of a 12th player on the field during home games is irrelevant to the copyrighted term.

 

[rastahawk]

I say we migrate to "54"

 

[BlueTalon]

Frankly, I'm fine getting rid of it. I'm not a 12th man, I'm a Seahawks fan. That I perform the task of a 12th player on the field during home games is irrelevant to the copyrighted term.

I actually read the copyright applications. I forget how exactly it was worded, but it was something to the effect of using 12th Man in promotion and support of collegiate football games and other activities, sales of Texas A&M gear, etc. There is nothing the Seahawks do that can be confused with anything A&M does.

I seriously don't like the Aggies' attitude. It's like "I left my precious things on the sidewalk 70 years ago and now I WANT THEM ALL BACK GIVE THEM TO ME NOW!!!" and they don't care what they have to do or who they have to do it to to get their way. I really hope they try to fight a legal battle with NFL teams and get their butts handed to them.


I am a 12th Man. You are too. It's part of who we are. You can't go back and unretire the number 12 for the fans.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

Your title is wrong by the way. It would not effect " the twelves" as the trademark is for use of "twelfth man".
If it becomes too troublesome we may consider another name like twelves, Legion of Twelves, or a title not trademarked. IMO we have outgrown the twelfth man title anyhow.

 

[chris98251]

Your title is wrong by the way. It would not effect " the twelves" as the trademark is for use of "twelfth man".
If it becomes too troublesome we may consider another name like twelves, Legion of Twelves, or a title not trademarked. IMO we have outgrown the twelfth man title anyhow.

Why do you think that? We have been the 12th man for 39 years, now it's not good enough because we won a Super Bowl and with that popularity it is a Fad some teams are using like Why Not Us.

We are the 12th Man, people say the 12's but we are who we are. People want our Mojo and will try to emulate and attempt to make their fan base both more involved and as relevant as ours is and always has been.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

Sorry if I upset you Chris. I just think the twelfth man is no longer an original title.. In history of American football it's been used to describe fans of several colleges and pro teams besides Seattle. Why should we continue to pay a lesser organization for our namesake anyway? We put the 12th man on the map with our connection to this current team and yet we don't own the rights to it? We know this team is picking up a huge fan base beyond normal Seattleites. It would be sad to see Texas A&M benefit from a marketing push of the Seattle twelfth man. If nothing else Seattle-ites are inventive and resilient.... they might find a more suitable title in their evolution as a Seahawks fanbase.

 

[Seanhawk]

Frankly, I'm fine getting rid of it. I'm not a 12th man, I'm a Seahawks fan. That I perform the task of a 12th player on the field during home games is irrelevant to the copyrighted term.

I'm in the same boat. Growing up as a Seahawk fan in Iowa, I maybe got to see them on TV once or twice a year. I followed them religiously through box scores, The Sporting News, the 10 minute ticker, and later on-NFL Primetime and the inter web. I'm not sure when I even became aware of the 12th man phenomenon, I knew the #12 was retired, but it was probably around the time I was able to afford the Sunday Ticket shortly after I was out of college.

I've been to at least one game out in Seattle since the new stadium opened and I think the raising of the flag before the game is a nice tradition and a good way to get the crowd amped up. That being said, I've become, I'm not sure annoyed is the term, but tired of the whole thing. It seems to be brought up in every interview with a player or a coach. At the Pro Shop opening weekend, it seemed there was as much stuff with a 12 on it as a Seahawk logo. I have 12th man fatigue. I don't own, and have never owned something with a 12 on it. Never will. I know probably no one on here feels the way I do, but I'm tired even writing about it. Longer posts aren't my thing. Go Hawks.

 

[Largent80]

12 for life. Period.

 

[hawkfan68]

Do the Texas A&M fans do the "wave"? If so, then UW should trademark that and specify that this can only be performed in stadiums or arenas in Washington State. Sort of an eye for an eye....ya it's ridiculous but that's really the point.

 

[Trenchbroom]

Seeing as how the 12th Man phrase was coined half a century before Texas A&M started using it in another part of the country altogether, I'm guessing it wouldn't be hard to strip them of the trademark they shouldn't have been given in the first place. Prior art would screw Texas A&M over in a big way; it's in their best interest not to poke the hornet's nest.

Words cannot express my lack of worry over this.

Roland is right.

I think the A&M fans are the ones screaming for the college to forego a renewal of the agreement. But I think the higher ups at the school know that they have little ground to stand on and it's better to allow an NFL team (obviously not in direct competition with A&M) to "license" the rights than to have us destroy their copyright and allow other college teams to use the term freely.

 

[Popeyejones]

First point worth making is that I don't think it matters what the Hawks fans call themselves, nor will it have any impact on their fandom.

Three other thoughts:

1.

Seeing as how the 12th Man phrase was coined half a century before Texas A&M started using it in another part of the country altogether, I'm guessing it wouldn't be hard to strip them of the trademark they shouldn't have been given in the first place. Prior art would screw Texas A&M over in a big way; it's in their best interest not to poke the hornet's nest.

Perhaps, but part of the licensing agreement Seattle signed with A&M was public acknowledgement and legal agreement that A&M is the rightful owner of the trademark. This was written in precisely so that the Seahawks couldn't decide that they wanted to stop paying every year to use the trademark and then try to argue that it belonged to common usage. It was a smart move on A&M's part, and one the Seahawks agreed to.


2.

With regards to just switching to "twelves", "12th fan", etc., etc., these types of variation are protected under trademark law, and are generally a no go (e.g. the joke of the golden arches of "McDowell's" in COMING TO AMERICA -- it's a joke because in the real world it would be a clear infringement on McDonalds' trademark.

3.

Neither of these things means that a judge couldn't decide to rule that "12th Man" has become a term in generic use (arguing that the trademark should never have been granted in the first place is a much harder row to hoe, see #1). Not sure how applicable that is to this case because we don't see the proliferation of "12th man" usage across a bunch of different NFL and college teams in the last 35 years (which is what you'd have to show), but stranger things have happened.

The recent example is that after a ten year lawsuit the variant on yoga called "pilates" was found to have become a term that was generically used and could no longer be trademarked. It was only noteworthy because pilates is named after its invenor, Joseph Pilates, and his family lost the right to control the marketing of their own last name. So, yeah, stranger things have happened. (although MANY other general use terms -- dumpster, band-aid, windbreaker, jacuzzi, bubble wrap, jet ski, popsicle, kleenex, etc., etc., etc., -- are still trademarked).

 

[byau]

With regards to just switching to "twelves", "12th fan", etc., etc., these types of variation are protected under trademark law, and are generally a no go (e.g. the joke of the golden arches of "McDowell's" in COMING TO AMERICA -- it's a joke because in the real world it would be a clear infringement on McDonalds' trademark.

Wow, now that kind of sucks. So we can't use 12s or 12th Fan ?

Maybe Paul Allen should refuse the use of microsoft products Texas A&M....

 

[DTexHawk]

Maybe Paul Allen should refuse the use of microsoft products Texas A&M....

A&M does pay for the use of Microsoft products that they use.

That's what professional organizations do, work within laws and agreements.

 

[Popeyejones]

With regards to just switching to "twelves", "12th fan", etc., etc., these types of variation are protected under trademark law, and are generally a no go (e.g. the joke of the golden arches of "McDowell's" in COMING TO AMERICA -- it's a joke because in the real world it would be a clear infringement on McDonalds' trademark.

Wow, now that kind of sucks. So we can't use 12s or 12th Fan ?

Maybe Paul Allen should refuse the use of microsoft products Texas A&M....

The general rule is that if it can be construed as being confused with the trademark than it's an infringement on the trademark, particularly if i's in the same industry.

For example, Paul Allen would win a lawsuit if I called my new operating system Macro-Soft, or if I named by new spreadsheet software Excelsior, if though it's a latin word that long predates Microsoft Excel.

That said, I could name my new car or tennis racket the Excel, because cars or tennis rackets aren't likely to be confused with spreadsheet software.

Basically, when Seattle agreed to publicly and legally recognize the legitimacy of A&M's trademark and that they were bound to it (a description of football fans of a team), they've also restricted themselves from using variants of the term that could be confused for it or suggest the same thing if they (or A&M) choose not to renew the licensing deal or can't come to an agreement when it's up.

That said though, Seattle can just retire a jersey that says "the fans." It's still a great honoring of Hawks fans....and a BRILLIANT PR/Marketing move by the organization.*

(I don't say this as a way to subtly jab in a knife, seriously, it's both a great honoring and a very impressive PR move to retire a jersey for the fans; I wish the 9ers had thought of it first).


EDIT: Sorry for the long post, but it's also worth saying that in the next round of negotiations A&M would have to be idiots to be the first ones to leave the table. They have MUCH more to lose by not renewing than Seattle does. They might play hardball and Seattle might walk away, but I can't imagine they don't realize it's in their best interest to be getting `100K a year (it will end up being more no doubt) for almost nothing). If anything I thing one of the major sticking points will be Seattle being limited to protection of the term in just seven states (why you don't see any "12th man" gear on the Seahawks online team store, or on the NFL online team store).

 

[DTexHawk]

Seeing as how the 12th Man phrase was coined half a century before Texas A&M started using it in another part of the country altogether, I'm guessing it wouldn't be hard to strip them of the trademark they shouldn't have been given in the first place. Prior art would screw Texas A&M over in a big way; it's in their best interest not to poke the hornet's nest.

Words cannot express my lack of worry over this.

Not quite a half century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_man_(football)

The first recorded use of the term "twelfth man" was a magazine published by the University of Minnesota in September, 1900, that referred to "the mysterious influence of the twelfth man on the team, the rooter."[1] Later, in the November 1912 edition of The Iowa Alumnus, an alumni publication of the University of Iowa (then known as State University of Iowa), E.A. McGowan described the 1903 game between Iowa and the University of Illinois. In his article, titled "The Twelfth Player" McGowan wrote: "The eleven men had done their best; but the twelfth man on the team (the loyal spirited Iowa rooter) had won the game for old S.U.I."[2]

The first recorded instance of the term "12th Man" referring to an individual was to denote E. King Gill and his actions in Dallas on January 2, 1922.[citation needed] At the Dixie Classic, the forerunner of the Cotton Bowl Classic, Texas A&M University (then known as The Agricultural and Mechanical College of Texas) played defending national champion Centre College. In this hard fought game, which produced national publicity, an underdog Texas A&M team was slowly but surely defeating a team which boasted three All-Americans. During the game, A&M coach Dana X. Bible realized that one more injury would leave him without another backfield player to send into the game. Coach Bible remembered that Gill, an individual who had tried out for the squad but who "lacked the experience and ability to play for the varsity" had made the trip as a member of the school’s Corps of Cadets and was sitting with his friends in the stands.[3] Bible sent for Gill and asked for him to suit up and be ready if needed. Gill later said, "I wish I could say that I went in and ran for the winning touchdown, but I did not. I simply stood by in case my team needed me."[4] Although he did not actually play in the game, his readiness to play was noted. As there were 11 men on the field, E. King Gill was the 12th Man, hence the term.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Maybe Paul Allen should refuse the use of microsoft products Texas A&M....

A&M does pay for the use of Microsoft products that they use.

That's what professional organizations do, work within laws and agreements.

If only our government only granted trademarks and copyrights to the proper people and entities that created them, the whole point of the system.

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^^^Eh, in terms of real world consequences compared to patent law trademark law is almost utopian, man.

FWIW I think trademark law is reasonably fuctional, and more importantly, there's not really a better way to do it (unless we decided to actually fund the PTO enough to be a functional investigatory agency, which we really don't, and if we did that money should really be funneled into the patent wing rather than the trademark wing, IMO).

As for the "proper entities" in this case, it would have to be someone who was using the term prior to 1921, and as I recall they'd have to show continous usage rather than it just popping up once or twice in a newspaper or some advertising material 100 years ago. Legally, I don't think there's a case to be made that if there is a proper entitty it's anyone but A&M.

The best argument IMO would be general usage, but A&M has been smart by having the orgs that would argue for general usage (the Hawks and Bills) sign acknowledgements of their rightful claim to the trademark as part of the licensing deals. I guess the Colts could make the argument, but why would they go down that rode when the likely outcome of it is that they'd lose a counter suit for infringement by A&M? The Colts going down that road is just poking the bear IMO.

 

[DTexHawk]

Maybe Paul Allen should refuse the use of microsoft products Texas A&M....

A&M does pay for the use of Microsoft products that they use.

That's what professional organizations do, work within laws and agreements.

If only our government only granted trademarks and copyrights to the proper people and entities that created them, the whole point of the system.

So because a system isn't "perfect" in your eyes, then it can and should be ignored?

 

[Shadowhawk]

It wouldn't break my heart if we lost "The 12th Man" but honestly I hope Paul Allen takes A&M to court on this and kicks their @$& just on general principle. They didn't give a damn what we called ourselves until we went to the Super Bowl in 2005. I loved watching the postgame trophy presentations after Super Bowl XLVIII when every single speaker used the phrase "12th Man" because I bet A&M was seething at that point. They have gotten too big for their britches and deserve to be smacked down over this.

 

[Popeyejones]

honestly I hope Paul Allen takes A&M to court on this and kicks their @$& just on general principle.

Never gonna happen. He didn't get to where he is by being stupid enough to fight that losing battle.


Unrelated: Have we talked about how the "W" in the .net logo above looks like a terrifying vagina with an eye peering out of it? Am I just a total perv? Once you see it you can't unsee it.