To the doomers and the optimists:

[AgentDib]

Sourcing nebulous experts and other like-minded posters is not persuasive. I like Brock too, and I don't think he would agree with a single thing you've stated in this thread. Salk might but he's not very bright. Either way, arguing that person X agrees with you is largely pointless on a discussion forum.

If we are not more talented than the team across from us then why is it necessarily a coaching problem if we lose to them? The Rams are better than we are at this point in the season, factoring in all of the variables including injuries. It will suck if we lose the division to them but that's how the NFL cookie crumbles. The Packers and Texans are both also in jeopardy of missing the playoffs this year and I doubt as an outsider you would blame either coaching staff.

You cannot argue that pre season we had one of the top teams in the league as far as verifiable statistic based talent.

Statistics measure outcomes, not raw talent. Outcomes are driven by both talent as well as scheme and coaching, so a better way of stating that would be that we had arguably the best defense considering both talent and coaching.

That nitpick aside, I agree that we were one of the top 5 teams coming into this season. I wasn't quite as high as some given that we were forced to go with a LT with zero NFL experience again, but thought our defense could repeat as a #1 defense and keep us in games.

Then the last 13 games happened. We won a game that we could have lost, lost a couple that we could have won, and have had a bunch of key components of the team sidelined with injury. How we ranked in the preseason doesn't help us at all on Sunday vs the Rams.

 

[johnnyfever]

Sourcing nebulous experts and other like-minded posters is not persuasive. I like Brock too, and I don't think he would agree with a single thing you've stated in this thread. Salk might but he's not very bright. Either way, arguing that person X agrees with you is largely pointless on a discussion forum.

If we are not more talented than the team across from us then why is it necessarily a coaching problem if we lose to them? The Rams are better than we are at this point in the season, factoring in all of the variables including injuries. It will suck if we lose the division to them but that's how the NFL cookie crumbles. The Packers and Texans are both also in jeopardy of missing the playoffs this year and I doubt as an outsider you would blame either coaching staff.

You cannot argue that pre season we had one of the top teams in the league as far as verifiable statistic based talent.

Statistics measure outcomes, not raw talent. Outcomes are driven by both talent as well as scheme and coaching, so a better way of stating that would be that we had arguably the best defense considering both talent and coaching.

That nitpick aside, I agree that we were one of the top 5 teams coming into this season. I wasn't quite as high as some given that we were forced to go with a LT with zero NFL experience again, but thought our defense could repeat as a #1 defense and keep us in games.

Then the last 13 games happened. We won a game that we could have lost, lost a couple that we could have won, and have had a bunch of key components of the team sidelined with injury. How we ranked in the preseason doesn't help us at all on Sunday vs the Rams.

So please let me know what sources you use that we don't have an offensive coaching problem or that we don't have talented players.

Or did you just pull your ideas out of your poophole.

 

[BigMeach]

Garbage post. Disguising facts as opinions doesn't warrant much credibility. Aside from some pretty big injuries, the Hawks are fine as a whole and the system produces a Super Bowl contender each and every year.

Wait, we can't state our own opinion as facts?! NOOOOOOOOOOOO. :sarcasm_off:

 

[NFSeahawks]

If you started with the most talented team on paper every year, how many times do you think you would win it all out of 10 seasons?

This is a great question.

If we're staying 1 standard deviation from the mean I'd say the most talented team would win about 1.5 Super Bowls in those ten years, with an unlucky version of that team winning 0 and a lucky version winning 3.

Another way to think about this is suppose I told you Team X was the most talented team across a decade, and an unnamed team won two Super Bowls in that decade.

Would you bet on that unnamed team being Team X or being one of the 31 teams that isn't Team X?

If someone doesn't bet the field on that they're nuts.

with 16 games a year, a one-and-done playoff structure, and a ridiculously high injury rate the NFL is about as close to randomness as you could get if you were developing a sport in a lab.

Which is why it's IMPERATIVE that you have good coaching, to overcome mishaps.

Now tell me is our current coaching staff good enough to overcome those mishaps and win solely on coaching alone.

 

[Spin Doctor]

People who represent opinions as facts are cockwombles. Didn't read anymore of this thread.

Cockwomble? I really need to find a way to integrate this into daily conversation.

 

[HomerJHawk]

FACT: I loves me my Hawks, good and bad. They are always entertaining to watch, and are in the game until the last snap (most times). Try being a fan back in the late 80's/90's. Geeesh.

That was when being an eternal optimist was really, really painful. You do realize 'grunge' became a thing because of frustrated Hawks fans, right?

 

[RolandDeschain]

2010 7-9
2011 7-9
2012 11-5
2013 13-3
2014 12-4
2015 10-6
2016 10-5-1
2017 8-5

Plot these numbers on a graph and tell me there is no downward trend.

It's not a downward trend. They're on pace to finish 11-5 or 10-6 again.

A downward trend is getting progressively worse each year.

Instead, they had two Super Bowl years followed by two years of slightly lower but essentially flat performance, which this year will likely be also.

Actually, damn near everything in the world that goes through a downward trend does it in spikes and in an uneven progression. Your insinuation that you have to like, win one fewer game each year to be considered trending downward is wrong.

Don't believe me? Go look at any random stock price that is a fair deal less now than it was five years ago, then look at the year-by-year breakdown, then the month-by-month breakdown.

We lost to a non-divisional opponent AT HOME that is very inferior to us. Go look at our schedule in the Pete Carroll era and tell us when the last time that happened was.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Par for the course Roland post.

Thank you. This helps confirm that I'm on the right track. Enjoy the mindset of refusing to consider the possibility that one's thoughts may not be 100% correct in all facets! :lol:

 

[AgentDib]

Enjoy the mindset of refusing to consider the possibility that one's thoughts may not be 100% correct in all facets! :lol:

Next thing you know he'll be taking that mindset to the next level by posting a list of his opinions as facts.

So please let me know what sources you use that we don't have an offensive coaching problem or that we don't have talented players...Or did you just pull your ideas out of your poophole.

Some people do go about forming their own opinions.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Enjoy the mindset of refusing to consider the possibility that one's thoughts may not be 100% correct in all facets! :lol:

Next thing you know he'll be taking that mindset to the next level by posting a list of his opinions as facts.

How much factual evidence does it take for an opinion to be a fact? A dump truck full?

Some people do go about forming their own opinions.

Precious few, in all honesty. Certainly far fewer than most people think. This little gem from you actually reminds me of a brilliant quote from The Lost World:

As one questioner had pompously phrased it, "The Cretaceous allowed our own sentient awareness to arise on the planet." Malcom's reply was immediate: "What makes you think human beings are sentient and aware? There's no evidence for it. Human beings never think for themselves they find it too uncomfortable. For the most part, members of our species simply repeat what they are told - and become upset if they are exposed to any different view. The characteristic human trait is not awareness but conformity, and the characteristic result is religious warfare.

^ Fewer quotes from any novel have ever been more truthful.

 

[Siouxhawk]

But what's your answer to johnny's question?

Please answer sioux.

Your question is moot at this point. But I believe in our team and you obviously don't, so I can see where you'd be hung up on such matters that I consider frivolous.

This is the same messed up mentality that is holding this team that I love back right now. They REFUSE to identify and take responsibility to blaringly apparent shorcomings and weaknesses we have. Sioux is in total denial mode. The reason he wont answer my question is so it gives him an out. At some point you will have to come to grips with the fact you are seeing this incorrectly, and that there are issues with some of our coaching staff. I dont think there needs to be a change at the top with JS and PC, but all others are fair game.

Next year his thing will be "how many other teams go over .500 every year", nothing to see here folks and no need to change, I'm totally fine with letting the team continue to regress as long as no negative is ever said and no improvements are made requiring coaching replacements.

Total weak sauce sioux, be a man and if you truly believe the garbage that rolls out of your facehole then stand behind it.

You want to install the TV antenna before the foundation is even laid. That's the reason your question is frivolous and doesn't merit a response. As I said, I expect the Hawks to make the playoffs and be in contention for a nice playoff run. I'm not interested in the offseason at this point.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Cockwomble, great band

 

[Mad Dog]

2010 7-9
2011 7-9
2012 11-5
2013 13-3
2014 12-4
2015 10-6
2016 10-5-1
2017 8-5

Plot these numbers on a graph and tell me there is no downward trend.

It is a slow decline but a decline nonetheless. Injuries this year have definitely hurt the hawks but I think the rest of the league has caught up with the team and our inability to adapt will continue this trend regardless of injuries.

If you are happy with making the playoffs and going one and done, good for you. This team will make you extremely happy.

If you are unhappy with making the playoffs and going one and done, good for you. This team will make you extremely unhappy.

Yep, agreed.

I don't agree. It's this kind of warped expectation that sets one up for a fall. In the past 5 seasons, the Hawks have been one of 4 remaining NFC teams to have a shot at making the Super Bowl. They did just that twice. It's this kind of consistency that makes this the best era ever in Seahawks history.

Having temper tantrums that we don't make the Super Bowl every year shows a lack of understanding as to how fine the line between wins and losses in this parity-driven league. By his own admission, Pete's greatest sense of accomplishment is fielding a perennial contender each and every season. He's built a franchise that is always competitive and with a few breaks can find its way to the dais to accept the Lombardi.

I appreciate what Pete and his staff continue to do and wouldn't be surprised in the least if we made another deep playoff run.

Sooooo...

If they don't make the playoffs this year sioux, will you finally concede that maybe some coaching changes are needed, or will your goals go form superbowl to just the playoffs, then next year you will be cool with just getting over .500?

Please answer honestly.

Coaching changes are only needed if you believe you can find someone better. If you don't believe this then coaching changes are scapegoating for fans sake and that usually gets franchises in trouble.

There are a few coaches I think are better than what we have and I don't think any of them are available right now. Although it would be a hoot to hire Jeff Fisher as special teams coach lol.

My "goals" as a fan are to encourage my team to win by attending games and yelling my ass off. My "expectations" as a fan are for John and Pete to field a consistently competitive team, because I honestly believe you can't expect much more in this highly competitive league. The Patriots are a true anomaly and not likely to be replicated in my lifetime. Setting that model as your expectation and not as "pie in the sky" wishful thinking is going to lead to seasons of disappointment.

So in answer to your question, if we don't do well this year, my expectation will be for Pete and John to look critically at all phases of the organization, look at what's available and do what's necessary to improve the team. I do not believe that always means finding a scapegoat to fire.

 

[original poster]

Although it would be a hoot to hire Jeff Fisher as special teams coach lol.

I don’t know whether to ‘friend’ you or ‘foe’ you with that quote.

:2thumbs:

 

[RolandDeschain]

Coaching changes are only needed if you believe you can find someone better.

Logical fallacy. Getting rid of a bad employee can easily be addition by subtraction. Your statement somewhat applies to HEAD coaches, but anything else, hell no. That's apparently...what is it? Cockwomble? Lol.

 

[seahawkfreak]

How come non of the "doomers"" have reacted negatively to Roland's post?

 

[lukerguy]

I agree that the ascent was a lot more fun...this was because we had new fresh young faces... It's always fun to see new players. I get the same interest in Shaq or Lockett when they first started, but this sensation x20 since pretty much everyone was new.

Unfortunately that's cannot happen unless the team is blown up, and I don't think we should do that. However, we are going to have to find a way to get younger, not for skill sake, but for durability.

I think we can all admit that going young, cheap, and inexperienced on the oline is not the answer. I recommend we re-sign Brown, move fant to RT, Sign a proven LG (Not Jockel), and start from there on offense. I love jImmy but he's not needed to thrive as an offense. I love Prich but he's not worth 6-7MM when we are good at drafting WRs.

I love Kam and Cliff, but it seems it's time for them.

Something to consider is how we had so many young kids thrive when given a legit shot at a starting spot, and ironically haven't had a starting spot open on defense since CB this year... and I'd say that worked out pretty well. The whole "always compete" mantra that helped built the program has been lost, and I think they need to bring it back.

How can you honestly say the FO did the best job competing, when the kicker is still here? And if it's because you have cap issues, then you need to ensure that you never have those same issues again and leave a buffer.

Anyways, let's get younger, let people compete again, but just not on the Oline. That's the only spot they've allowed for competition but the decreased practice time, poor coaching, and poor relative skill level has not been a good experiment.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I'm optimistic there will be doom and gloom regardless what happens on Sunday :2thumbs:

 

[johnnyfever]

I'm optimistic there will be doom and gloom regardless what happens on Sunday :2thumbs:

If we win on Sunday we will most likely be in the playoffs. That doesn't change those of us that would like to see improvements to get better. Pointing out weaknesses and places we need improvement is just that and I think labeling it "doom and gloom" is woefully inaccurate.

I'll be the first to compliment improvement. The offensive strategy in the eagles game was completely different than the strategy employed in the jags game, and we saw how that turned out. The Jimmy interception was on Russ as he should have seen that shadow waiting to pounce. The longer interceptions were 50/50 Russ and Bev. Russ shouldn't have thrown it, but Bev was just calling 3 receiver go routes with no short soft zone options.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Fair enough, my point being that even when we WIN, people whine and moan. So there is that