We're sorry, Tical. You were right, please forgive us, Tical

keasley45

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olyfan63":qq04jrjb said:
hawk45":qq04jrjb said:
Although as keasley45 said he’ll beat cover 2 a few times a game and John will put up an isolated stat or dots on a chart when the truth is Russ broke the pocket and ran around until the zone broke down, but did not beat it with pre or post snap recognition and anticipation
hawk45":qq04jrjb said:
--snip--
Moving on would be accepting Wilson can’t beat cover 2 and discussing how to fix it or if he’d tolerate the fix.

Yup. Pretty much nailed it, and that's where I'm at too.
With the LRC unraveling fiasco of last season, it almost seems part of the issue could be Russell's unwillingness to acknowledge the issue and truly go to work on it, as opposed to relying on scheming around it. It felt to me like when the Hawks hit 3-8 that Russell made a decision to work on that deficiency in his game. I have no proof of that, but hope to see evidence in the Rams and Cardinals games.

It certainly seemed as though the scheming became a bit more intentional. Whether that was Russ just saying 'ok', or whether it was mandated that the game be scripted a certain way from carrol to Shane and then to Russ... who knows. But for certain there's been a shift in the play calls. And for certain, Russ has made a concerted effort to do the small things he's not done well since the middle of last season - stepping up in the pocket, hanging in a split second longer to make the read within the flow of the play...

My guess is that given the shift back to a more balanced attack and less just 'tossing the ball around the yard' - a marked difference from the start of the season and period after Russ came back when we were passing at almost a 3 to 1 rate (the antithesis of 'Pete Ball') - that Pete pushed the issue of late. As he should have.
 

John63

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John63":1hz8f6ky said:
olyfan63":1hz8f6ky said:
John63":1hz8f6ky said:
LOl yeah ignore the facts I posted saying otherwise about cover 2 and just go with the Qhawks. I will make it easier for you since you seem somewhat rational. No player in the NFL is without his defincencies to include Wilson, we have pointed out when he makes mistakes. The difference is we realize just because you make a mistake does not mean you can't and always do. For example, Mahomes had a string of 5 of 7 games where he played like crap. All against single high. However, no one said he cant play again single high. The fact is he normally carves it up He just had a string of bad games combined with a great pass rush. However, Wilsons are far less pronounced than those you praise are suggesting as I and others have pointed out supply facts to support us rather than just claims. That said lets also use some common sense do you really think in 10 years if indeed he was so bad against 2 high that no one would have noticed and started using it? The facts I provided show otherwise. There is a difference between having a rough patch and being nad against something.

Everything you mentioned comes in a distant last behind Kurt Warner's video breakdown and every other actual NFL QB analyst, and also way behind the Rams defense and the way they've owned Russell over the years.

Remember the game where Golden Tate did the taunting bye-bye to the Rams CB, Janoris Jenkins IIRC, as he caught Russell's deep ball and waltzed into the end zone? That was about ALL the Hawks got that game, and it was barely enough to win. How about that Monday night win where the Hawks offense sucked, but Heath Farwell made a goal line stop to preserve the win? Even the exceptions with the Rams prove the point. The best game I recall Russell having vs. the Rams was the 30-29 win in 2019. Carson ran 27 times for 118 yards, Seahawks got 2 Rams turnovers, and the Rams missed a woulda-been-game-winning field goal as time expired. The next game, a couple months later, the Rams did a 28-12 beatdown on the Hawks, with no TDs from the Seattle offense, Russell sacked 5 times, threw a pick, and Hawks only TD was a pick-6 from Diggs.

The Rams know Russell's weaknesses and have the horses to exploit them, especially when it really matters. Not every NFL team has an Aaron Donald, or (in the past) Robert Quinn.

Just because not all teams have the player talent or scheme knowledge to exploit Russell's weaknesses, doesn't mean they don't exist. It doesn't mean he's not a great QB with amazing QB superpowers. It does mean he's not in the same league as Tom Brady when it comes to reading defenses and instantly knowing where to go with the ball, but then very, very few are.

NFL OCs are going to look at opposing defenses strengths, weaknesses, tendencies, and exploitable matchups. Remember Brady exploiting Tharald Simon in SB49? All Brady did was go "Where's Simon?" at the LOS and then throw to whichever quick small receiver, Amendola or Edelman, was in Simon's area. So the OC and Russell are going to do their best to find things they can exploit and develop a game plan based on them. Some teams will have no answer for Russell's QB superpowers. It's not enough for teams to just play Cover-2. OK, so the middle center of the field is dead to Russell when opponents run Cover-2, but can they match up with Tyler and DK outside and downfield? Can their pass rush force Russell to throw it before he wants to, or sack him? Can their run defense when in Cover-2 not be gashed by Carson or even (gasp!) lately... Penny?

Mahomes is one of the best comps to Russell. They have similar QB superpowers. The league is starting to learn Mahomes tendencies, and it's tougher sledding for him now. Tampa Bay, like the Rams, has personnel on their D that can force the issue. That and KC had an injured O-Line that was hot garbage in that game. In the prior Super Bowl, the one KC won, Mahomes basically pulled a Russell, scrambling around and finding a WR deep downfield. (SF fans all say a blatant hold was ignored, giving Mahomes the time to throw--they may have a point) Then Mahomes KC D and run game helped him out a bit, to preserve the win. That formula, along with cheap rookie contract, was golden for Russell, and it worked for Mahomes too.

Come back here after the Rams game and note all the plays where Russell read a Cover-2 zone, and made a throw in the middle of the field for a 3rd down conversion. Same thing after the Cardinals game. I'm expecting it to be a "very short list", but would be happy to be wrong. That would be progress for Russell.

Russell has "rough patches", aside from injury, because of holes in his QB game, and opponents who have the horses on D to take advantage of them. His rough patches are not random.


You mean the video he did of 1 game and a few playes compared to the stats of a whole season. Right.. what ever makes u feel good.


Fyi since love Warner deal with this

"Former NFL star-turned-analyst Kurt Warner has expressed his true feelings on Russell Wilson, putting him as one of the greatest to ever do it, even comparing him to Peyton Manning and Tom Brady for the fact that Wilson gets better every year. "

https://bolavip.com/en/nfl/kurt-war...m-brady-and-peyton-manning-20210108-0022.html

You see there is a difference between analyzing a game and some plays and a whole season or career. Warner knows that. Maybe u should learn that.
Thanks for playing.

This^^^
 

OrangeGravy

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Unfortunately, this is what you'll see from Russell for the rest of his career unless he either finds himself on a stacked roster like 2013/14 or he starts making reads/throws he's just unwilling to make so far in his career. It appears to be very jekyll and Hyde like, but its completely predictable. He'll look like today against good teams that can take away his preferences and force him to hold the ball and he'll look good against teams that can't.
That 2nd TD to Kupp is a perfect example of what Russell absolutely won't do. Maybe in a game ending drive scenario on 4th down with no other choice, but any other game situation he will not make an anticipation read and throw to a spot from the pocket.

What makes it even worse is this is best the o-line has held up against the Rams front that I can remember and it just doesn't matter. Playoff team or team with a good defense = bad Russell. Bad teams or playoff teams with soft D = good Russell. That's pretty much been the formula for 10 years.
 
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Tical21

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It's almost as if the Rams play 2-deep coverage. Weird.
 

Throwdown

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Tical21":1gued12i said:
It's almost as if the Rams play 2-deep coverage. Weird.

It’s become comical how bad he is vs it. There was times he just stood there, he had plays where he had all the time in the world, and it made nothing happen.
 

IndyHawk

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He's aging quicker than I predicted..The legs are done and with those floaters
he was throwing?The arm looks about done too.
I thought I was watching 40 yr Drew Brees or a cooked Peyton Manning.
 

nwHawk

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Still way too many 3 & outs last night. Several times he looked liked he made up his mind where to throw before the snap, and even if it was covered he still threw it rather than looking for the next progression.
 

keasley45

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nwHawk":3qp18gd9 said:
Still way too many 3 & outs last night. Several times he looked liked he made up his mind where to throw before the snap, and even if it was covered he still threw it rather than looking for the next progression.

Yup. What happens gradually over the course of the game is that good defenses adjust to take that read away and then cover high.

And when a defense can stuff the run just enough to throw us off balance, we have nothing to shift to because beating those looks would require anticipation and getting the ball out when it needs to come out to make the play. Instead, when Russ gets protection, he waits too long for routes.

I have no qualms with Russ wanting the offense to get better. But the worst part of all this now for him is that he grabbed the spotlight this offseason and made it a case of '...if we did x y and z and I was more involved, we'd be better'. But games like last night and whenever we face a defense that can stop his handful of tricks, show that he should have been a bit more modest and honest about what's holding the offense back at times. And that's him.

Truth is, Pete and Russ had a great thing when Russ was willing to work within a system that was more about situational ball and worked to eliminate his shortfalls... ie, if you cant pass your way out of a jam with quick, anticipatory hitters (not one read presnap throws) then you pound the ball and mix in the run more creatively.

Instead, Russ has driven home his desire to do what he's not good at AND continure to lean on his old faves. It woukd be one thing if this was a season where there was a drastic measurable improvement in his ability to digest plays. Last night was an opportunity to showcase that. But it looks a lot like last year.

This entire season, Russ has shown success the vast majority of the time running the plays that worked for him last year during his LRC streak of multi TD games. When it seems we are trying to integrate different routes... flop.

It's been an unfortunate season but one that I think was necessary for the FO to make whatever changes necessary to get is go the next level.

If I had to put my bet on which route gets us to where we are competitive again, I can honestly say that it looks like the defense is coming together nicely.

The offense, which is now the Shane and Russ show... and given the tendency to run old stuff that catered to Russ's skills early on but then failed, more the Russ show... again, I can't say I want to see any more of it. Too many wasted plays and opportunities... lost momentum and frustration building even among members of the offesne when we don't capitalize on what's right there for us. You can't punish Shane for that.
 
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Tical21

Tical21

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John63":36am42zk said:
SoulfishHawk":36am42zk said:
Still not Sorry.

Go Hawks!


THIS^^^
Typical. I take your abuse for years over something I was clearly absolutely correct about, and you don't even have the decency to apologize for it. I thought you were a bigger man than this.
 

massari

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Tical21":gq1bzovy said:
It's almost as if the Rams play 2-deep coverage. Weird.
Vladimir putin laugh

If you don't understand by now that Wilson's struggles vs cov 2 isn't all on him, then you never will and are choosing not to.
 

DarkVictory23

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keasley45":16f1a5e6 said:
The offense, which is now the Shane and Russ show... and given the tendency to run old stuff that catered to Russ's skills early on but then failed, more the Russ show... again, I can't say I want to see any more of it. Too many wasted plays and opportunities... lost momentum and frustration building even among members of the offesne when we don't capitalize on what's right there for us. You can't punish Shane for that.
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, RE: Russ, but just wanted to highlight this because I do think we left some opportunities on the table for Russ by not calling play action in a few key situations.

Our running game WAS working. There were a couple of times we should have let that work to our advantage in the passing game that I think would have helped Russ out and we didn't do that. That's on Shane.

Additionally, our team is NOT good at screen passes. We just aren't. We still call those plays way too many times in situations where it completely stalls our drive and it seems like we are counting on the defense not expecting us to do something we stink at so badly. Again, that's on our playcalling.


Everything else you said, though, is real and Russ's touch, or lack of it, on some of his deep throws suggests he might STILL be suffering from that finger situation as well. One of his best attributes has been his touch on deep throws and he simply doesn't have that right now.

Russ came back too early, for sure, but it's starting to seem as though he came back WAY too early.
 
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Tical21

Tical21

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massari":3nhof6vk said:
Tical21":3nhof6vk said:
It's almost as if the Rams play 2-deep coverage. Weird.
Vladimir putin laugh

If you don't understand by now that Wilson's struggles vs cov 2 isn't all on him, then you never will and are choosing not to.
The floor is yours...
 

keasley45

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DarkVictory23":fiy04d8z said:
keasley45":fiy04d8z said:
The offense, which is now the Shane and Russ show... and given the tendency to run old stuff that catered to Russ's skills early on but then failed, more the Russ show... again, I can't say I want to see any more of it. Too many wasted plays and opportunities... lost momentum and frustration building even among members of the offesne when we don't capitalize on what's right there for us. You can't punish Shane for that.
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, RE: Russ, but just wanted to highlight this because I do think we left some opportunities on the table for Russ by not calling play action in a few key situations.

Our running game WAS working. There were a couple of times we should have let that work to our advantage in the passing game that I think would have helped Russ out and we didn't do that. That's on Shane.

Additionally, our team is NOT good at screen passes. We just aren't. We still call those plays way too many times in situations where it completely stalls our drive and it seems like we are counting on the defense not expecting us to do something we stink at so badly. Again, that's on our playcalling.


Everything else you said, though, is real and Russ's touch, or lack of it, on some of his deep throws suggests he might STILL be suffering from that finger situation as well. One of his best attributes has been his touch on deep throws and he simply doesn't have that right now.

Russ came back too early, for sure, but it's starting to seem as though he came back WAY too early.

I think our screen game is ineffective because Russ's natural drop is soooooo deep to begin with. The D lineman are rushing to meet Russ at the point they would in a taller QBs retreating screen delivery. So there's zero element of surprise there. And everything naturally moves backward with Russ including the RB he's throwing the screen to.

Middle screens which we ran quite a bit of with Geno also go away with Russ under center. There HAS to be a reason for it. I think it's also a result of the way he has to play to still succeed at his height. And he has been wildly successful. But to pretend as though there are zero tradeoffs is foolish.
 

olyfan63

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John63":3k6pvrkk said:
You mean the video he did of 1 game and a few playes compared to the stats of a whole season. Right.. what ever makes u feel good.


Fyi since love Warner deal with this

"Former NFL star-turned-analyst Kurt Warner has expressed his true feelings on Russell Wilson, putting him as one of the greatest to ever do it, even comparing him to Peyton Manning and Tom Brady for the fact that Wilson gets better every year. "

https://bolavip.com/en/nfl/kurt-war...m-brady-and-peyton-manning-20210108-0022.html

You see there is a difference between analyzing a game and some plays and a whole season or career. Warner knows that. Maybe u should learn that.
Thanks for playing.

You continue to willfully ignore the obvious, trying to prop up your misguided Russell-as-deity point of view. Houston's D, for example, didn't have the horses to force the Russell and the offense into Russell's areas of weakness and cause him to struggle. The Rams historically do have the horses and the scheme, and last night the Rams D, once again, frustrated and neutralized Russell. In fairness, some of Russell's QB superpowers depend on his chemistry with Tyler Lockett, but Lockett was out injured, so maybe Russell does better with Lockett on the field.

There is a difference between a QB "playing well" against weaker opponents vs. what it takes for a QB to "make the difference" to overcome strong defenses and playoff-level opponents who game-plan to neutralize Russell's QB superpowers. Russell struggles and fails more often than not against that type of opponent. Russell is awesome, but is not able to carry the team in those games. Russell needs an elite defense and a strong running game to consistently win those high-stakes games.

Ever since the Hawks front office "paid" Russell, the team can no longer afford the overall talent level necessary to mask his issues against strong opponents. It's been 7 years since Russell's last Divisional Round playoffs win. Last divisional round playoff win? That was in 2014 leading up to SB49.

Russell is 0-3 in divisional round playoff games since he "got paid". You should learn to question why a QB can play at a seeming all-world level against some opponents, but look like crap against other, stronger opponents. Warner explains it. Keasley45 and Tical explain it. Maybe you should drop your silly Russell-as-Deity religion and have the humility to learn from people who know more than you.
 

keasley45

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Russ's deep ball was as lethal as ever against the Texans. I think it's less his finger and more tending to not trust what he sees. His throws were as late as they were short. He did that A Ton in his early career... tossing the jump ball. He perfected it over the last few years as he perfected the long ball plays he became known for. All in rhythm and on his schedule when the offense was better balanced and he could bomb away on the perfectly called play action. Throw that rhythm off... and I think he looks like last night. Which isn't a whole lot different than his bad games last year or tough outings he's had over his career before he goes hurry up. But teams have gradually taken that away as well .
 

keasley45

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olyfan63":2ss4mxcj said:
John63":2ss4mxcj said:
You mean the video he did of 1 game and a few playes compared to the stats of a whole season. Right.. what ever makes u feel good.


Fyi since love Warner deal with this

"Former NFL star-turned-analyst Kurt Warner has expressed his true feelings on Russell Wilson, putting him as one of the greatest to ever do it, even comparing him to Peyton Manning and Tom Brady for the fact that Wilson gets better every year. "

https://bolavip.com/en/nfl/kurt-war...m-brady-and-peyton-manning-20210108-0022.html

You see there is a difference between analyzing a game and some plays and a whole season or career. Warner knows that. Maybe u should learn that.
Thanks for playing.

You continue to willfully ignore the obvious, trying to prop up your misguided Russell-as-deity point of view. Houston's D, for example, didn't have the horses to force the Russell and the offense into Russell's areas of weakness and cause him to struggle. The Rams historically do have the horses and the scheme, and last night the Rams D, once again, frustrated and neutralized Russell. In fairness, some of Russell's QB superpowers depend on his chemistry with Tyler Lockett, but Lockett was out injured, so maybe Russell does better with Lockett on the field.

There is a difference between a QB "playing well" against weaker opponents vs. what it takes for a QB to "make the difference" to overcome strong defenses and playoff-level opponents who game-plan to neutralize Russell's QB superpowers. Russell struggles and fails more often than not against that type of opponent. Russell is awesome, but is not able to carry the team in those games. Russell needs an elite defense and a strong running game to consistently win those high-stakes games.

Ever since the Hawks front office "paid" Russell, the team can no longer afford the overall talent level necessary to mask his issues against strong opponents. It's been 7 years since Russell's last Divisional Round playoffs win. Last divisional round playoff win? That was in 2014 leading up to SB49.

Russell is 0-3 in divisional round playoff games since he "got paid". You should learn to question why a QB can play at a seeming all-world level against some opponents, but look like crap against other, stronger opponents. Warner explains it. Keasley45 and Tical explain it. Maybe you should drop your silly Russell-as-Deity religion and have the humility to learn from people who know more than you.

Well said. The blind Russ love is otherworldly in this place .

By asking why he plays well against some opponents and not others proves the point. Great Qbs are great because 98% of the time they are great regardless of who they play or how opponents scheme against them. To have a bad outing occasionally is to be expected. To consistently have bad outings against teams that xan play you a certain way and in years, not be able to solve it is a pattern that point to a weakness.

Great qbs make the players around them better. Russ looked lost without Lockett to bail him out. In Green Bay, Rodgers was without D Adams for a stretch and didn't look a whole lot different.

Every qb has weaknesses. Every qb has bad showings. The great ones make those instances few and far between. The struggle in Seattle at the qb position is and has been a consistent pattern.
 

keasley45

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Tical21":281gqooy said:
massari":281gqooy said:
Tical21":281gqooy said:
It's almost as if the Rams play 2-deep coverage. Weird.
Vladimir putin laugh

If you don't understand by now that Wilson's struggles vs cov 2 isn't all on him, then you never will and are choosing not to.
The floor is yours...

Exactly. Would love to hear the wisdom that sheds light on why we have routes that consistently beat cover 2, but the ball isn't being delivered even when the protection is there.

All ears
 

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