What Makes an Elite NFL Quaterback? - NFL Network

[Laloosh]

So in other words something Wilson has done many times.

I just sort of figured that he had a hard time finding an example readily available in gif form. Seriously, all quarterbacks have examples of doing it well or not doing it well. Point being, Russ (particularly in the 1st half of last season) showed some very poor discipline in the pocket at times.

He's also done a lot of stepping backward when he could have stepped up to avoid the rush. Popeye's example seemed (to me) to illustrate the type of play you see consistently from him. I would actually have gone with something like this...

He tries to get back up into the pocket after the initial pressure comes and only bounces it outside when he absolutely has to. Russ tends to sprint for the 1st down marker as soon as he gets that kind of interior pressure.

 

[scutterhawk]

Some of you get way too Butthurt if someone says anything negative about Wilson. He's a really good player, but his pocket awareness could definitely improve and be more consistent.

Not agreeing with someone else's assessment or stance is hardly being "butthurt".
If you're going to say something negative about Wilson, or any other player for that matter, you have to expect counter arguments.
Wilson just seems to find ways of winning, and he's doing it with very subpar O-Line protection, without a Jimmy Graham, Jerry Rice, Gronkowski, Largent.etc. also without Marshawn Lynch, or any other All World RB to help take the pressures off ..well, I think you get the point.
Russell Wilson absolutely will get better at his craft, but that's not even the point now, is it. (not a question)
We are assessing what he has accomplished in his first 4 Years, and without having the likes of a Matt Hasselbeck, Brett Favre, or a Peyton Manning to mentor him....He was thrust into the fire right from the get-go, and had to learn how to put it all together while on the fly.
As for Pocket Awareness...He's had to shape his play around shitty Pass Protection because it's "Consistently" been rated near the bottom 3rd for every single Year that he's played. (thank Odin, Allah, God or whoever) that he's able to scramble like Fran Tarkenton, (only better)
He's been accomplishing "Elite" level results, without checking all the "Elite" level boxes, and it just pisses off a lot of the statisticians. 8)

 

[Anthony!]

So in other words something Wilson has done many times.

I just sort of figured that he had a hard time finding an example readily available in gif form. Seriously, all quarterbacks have examples of doing it well or not doing it well. Point being, Russ (particularly in the 1st half of last season) showed some very poor discipline in the pocket at times.

He's also done a lot of stepping backward when he could have stepped up to avoid the rush. Popeye's example seemed (to me) to illustrate the type of play you see consistently from him. I would actually have gone with something like this...

He tries to get back up into the pocket after the initial pressure comes and only bounces it outside when he absolutely has to. Russ tends to sprint for the 1st down marker as soon as he gets that kind of interior pressure.

again you want him to do something he has done many times before.

 

[scutterhawk]

So in other words something Wilson has done many times.

I just sort of figured that he had a hard time finding an example readily available in gif form. Seriously, all quarterbacks have examples of doing it well or not doing it well. Point being, Russ (particularly in the 1st half of last season) showed some very poor discipline in the pocket at times.

He's also done a lot of stepping backward when he could have stepped up to avoid the rush. Popeye's example seemed (to me) to illustrate the type of play you see consistently from him. I would actually have gone with something like this...

He tries to get back up into the pocket after the initial pressure comes and only bounces it outside when he absolutely has to. Russ tends to sprint for the 1st down marker as soon as he gets that kind of interior pressure.

In the first half of last season, there was a whole lot of inconsistent play from the O-Line, and more often than not, the Pocket was either breeched, or collapsed, and it wasn't until Cable put Lewis in at Center, that Wilson could trust that there would even be a pocket for him to even try and manipulate, and that kind of sporadic protection kills trust, doesn't give a Quarterback all kinds of confidence.
Wilson proved that he can play at an Elite Level in the second half of last season, as the numbers that he and his Receivers put up through that stretch of games was astounding.
Like I said in another post, Wilson has been getting "Elite" results, with less than optimal play by an inconsistent, and often bottom 1/3 of the NFL O-Line play.

 

[Anthony!]

Some of you get way too Butthurt if someone says anything negative about Wilson. He's a really good player, but his pocket awareness could definitely improve and be more consistent.

Not agreeing with someone else's assessment or stance is hardly being "butthurt".
If you're going to say something negative about Wilson, or any other player for that matter, you have to expect counter arguments.
Wilson just seems to find ways of winning, and he's doing it with very subpar O-Line protection, without a Jimmy Graham, Jerry Rice, Gronkowski, Largent.etc. also without Marshawn Lynch, or any other All World RB to help take the pressures off ..well, I think you get the point.
Russell Wilson absolutely will get better at his craft, but that's not even the point now, is it. (not a question)
We are assessing what he has accomplished in his first 4 Years, and without having the likes of a Matt Hasselbeck, Brett Favre, or a Peyton Manning to mentor him....He was thrust into the fire right from the get-go, and had to learn how to put it all together while on the fly.
As for Pocket Awareness...He's had to shape his play around shitty Pass Protection because it's "Consistently" been rated near the bottom 3rd for every single Year that he's played. (thank Odin, Allah, God or whoever) that he's able to scramble like Fran Tarkenton, (only better)
He's been accomplishing "Elite" level results, without checking all the "Elite" level boxes, and it just pisses off a lot of the statisticians. 8)

well put I would argue that he does check all the elite boxes but he may do some of the things differently than others sometimes, but other times does it exactly the same. In the example shown with Rodgers okay Rodgers does something so he can move out of the pocket and make a through across his body. Wilson has done that many many times, so check that box. By all facts, stats, and the eye test he is Elite. But some will always find reasons for him not to be, In Prisco's case its because he is under 6 foot , and Prisco's said he would suck. For others its because they are still chewing at Lucks jock. Despite that the facts are undeniable and it is clear he is Elite

 

[Laloosh]

again you want him to do something he has done many times before.

Did ya miss the part where I said, "Seriously, all quarterbacks have examples of doing it well or not doing it well"? He can be better at it and at times, he's made some really bad decisions in that area. If you can't acknowledge that, we're not watching the same player.

I sometimes forget that there are individuals who cannot make the distinction between reading "he's not as good at this as he could be" and "he's a shitty quarterback".

 

[BlueTalon]

Russ tends to sprint for the 1st down marker as soon as he gets that kind of interior pressure.

That's just incorrect. When Russ faces interior pressure, what he does depends on where he is relative to the pressure, and his first move is almost always to escape to somewhere where he can look for someone to pass the ball to.

 

[Anthony!]

again you want him to do something he has done many times before.

Did ya miss the part where I said, "Seriously, all quarterbacks have examples of doing it well or not doing it well"? He can be better at it and at times, he's made some really bad decisions in that area. If you can't acknowledge that, we're not watching the same player.

I sometimes forget that there are individuals who cannot make the distinction between reading "he's not as good at this as he could be" and "he's a shitty quarterback".

All Qbs can do things better you are using this as an example why he is not elite, Because he can do it better, well all QBs have things they can do better, under your stance there are no elite Qbs. You seem to forget that when you make a statement that applies to everyone but try to make it sound like kit only applied to one person someone is going to say something.

 

[Anthony!]

Russ tends to sprint for the 1st down marker as soon as he gets that kind of interior pressure.

That's just incorrect. When Russ faces interior pressure, what he does depends on where he is relative to the pressure, and his first move is almost always to escape to somewhere where he can look for someone to pass the ball to.

exactly.

 

[Laloosh]

Russ tends to sprint for the 1st down marker as soon as he gets that kind of interior pressure.

That's just incorrect. When Russ faces interior pressure, what he does depends on where he is relative to the pressure, and his first move is almost always to escape to somewhere where he can look for someone to pass the ball to.

Suppose I should have clarified by adding, "more often than he has to" somewhere in there? Because I seem to recall a lunge to bail on a pocket against CAR or CIN last year when he had two receivers running wide open down the field and no pressure. He does look downfield when he scrambles but his tendency to leave the pocket when he doesn't need to, has hurt at times. Seriously people, don't take every word so literally and consider the point that's being made.

We've all seen the play where he scrambles around for 15 seconds against SF. Nobody said the kid doesn't look for a receiver down field. He's killed some plays with his tendency to leave a pocket early though.

popeye... how about this one?

 

[Anthony!]

Russ tends to sprint for the 1st down marker as soon as he gets that kind of interior pressure.

That's just incorrect. When Russ faces interior pressure, what he does depends on where he is relative to the pressure, and his first move is almost always to escape to somewhere where he can look for someone to pass the ball to.

Suppose I should have clarified by adding, "more often than he has to" somewhere in there? Because I seem to recall a lunge to bail on a pocket against CAR or CIN last year when he had two receivers running wide open down the field and no pressure. He does look downfield when he scrambles but his tendency to leave the pocket when he doesn't need to, has hurt at times. Seriously people, don't take every word so literally and consider the point that's being made.

We've all seen the play where he scrambles around for 15 seconds against SF. Nobody said the kid doesn't look for a receiver down field. He's killed some plays with his tendency to leave a pocket early though.

popeye... how about this one?

Cherry picking the times Rodgers does it, and cherry picking the times Wilson does not is not a way to prove a point. Again all QBs do things well sometimes and not others, Under your contention either there are no Elite Qbs since none do it right all the time, or Wilson is Elite. Pretty simple A or B

 

[Laloosh]

Cherry picking the times Rodgers does it, and cherry picking the times Wilson does not is not a way to prove a point. Again all QBs do things well sometimes and not others, Under your contention either there are no Elite Qbs since none do it right all the time, or Wilson is Elite. Pretty simple A or B

As I've said before, feel free to show me a play (any play) from last season that you thought Wilson screwed up. There's no middle ground to be found with you as has been proven time and time again. So long, thread...

 

[Anthony!]

Cherry picking the times Rodgers does it, and cherry picking the times Wilson does not is not a way to prove a point. Again all QBs do things well sometimes and not others, Under your contention either there are no Elite Qbs since none do it right all the time, or Wilson is Elite. Pretty simple A or B

As I've said before, feel free to show me a play (any play) from last season that you thought Wilson screwed up. There's no middle ground to be found with you as has been proven time and time again. So long, thread...

LOL yeah when in doubt punt, LOL. I can think of a few plays were I though he screwed up and have said so many times. So nice try. However cine you asked I will help you Trey Waynes int of Wilson againt Minny, he over through it, bad throw. enough said, still waiting for your A or B so we know if there either are no Elite QBs or Wilson is one.

 

[Popeyejones]

I basically agree with everything Laloosh has said in this thread.

Also, people offer examples so that other people can get the gist of the type of thing they're talking about. Pretening that an example is some type of bizarre "always or never" statement doesn't make any sense.

I also like that as one of his examples Laloosh offered a play in which Rodgers does what we're talking about really well, but then either threw the ball away (deceptively from within the pocket) or just really boned it on his accuracy. Always great to see examples of someone doing something really well on a play that ultimately didn't end up being successful, as it's a reminder that we have to think about these things independently.

As for Wilson improving on this part of his game this season, I couldn't agree more. Over the last six months or so I've written as much at least a couple times. Last offseason I said it was the area of his game for which I thought he was most in need of improvent (and that I was surprised that he hadn't developed at all IMO in this area yet), and during the year and after it I said I had noticed improvement, which was good to see.

That said, I still think this is the one part of his game in which he can really stand to have even more improvement. It's really for me the only area in which he's inferior (to varying degrees) from the other top QBs in the NFL. On everything else he's right with those guys or above them. He's doing it some of it now, but needs to improve still, both with regards to developing the skill in tighter quarters and displaying it more consistently. If that's offensive to you, eh, so be it.

 

[scutterhawk]

I basically agree with everything Laloosh has said in this thread.

Also, people offer examples so that other people can get the gist of the type of thing they're talking about. Pretening that an example is some type of bizarre "always or never" statement doesn't make any sense.

I also like that as one of his examples Laloosh offered a play in which Rodgers does what we're talking about really well, but then either threw the ball away (deceptively from within the pocket) or just really boned it on his accuracy. Always great to see examples of someone doing something really well on a play that ultimately didn't end up being successful, as it's a reminder that we have to think about these things independently.

As for Wilson improving on this part of his game this season, I couldn't agree more. Over the last six months or so I've written as much at least a couple times. Last offseason I said it was the area of his game for which I thought he was most in need of improvent (and that I was surprised that he hadn't developed at all IMO in this area yet), and during the year and after it I said I had noticed improvement, which was good to see.

That said, I still think this is the one part of his game in which he can really stand to have even more improvement. It's really for me the only area in which he's inferior (to varying degrees) from the other top QBs in the NFL. On everything else he's right with those guys or above them. He's doing it some of it now, but needs to improve still, both with regards to developing the skill in tighter quarters and displaying it more consistently. If that's offensive to you, eh, so be it.

Your opinion is not offensive at all....Look...Showing cherry picked examples proves nothing.
It's like some of Y'all are at the ready to point out a deficiency of Wilsons play, while trying to convince some of us that other so called Elite Quarterbacks are not making some bad decisions, errant throws, and that's not going to fly.
ALL the Elites make mistakes, and CAN PLAY BETTER, even the "Elite" Russell Wilson.
You can't isolate ANY one Quarterback and state definitively that he plays mistake free football, and that Russell Wilson can't be considered Elite because he's not over 6', doesn't manipulate a pocket, or throw for over 4000 yards, especially in a Run First oriented Offense.
When it all comes out the other side, Wilson is Elite enough to be sporting a Super Bowl ring, and is becoming a regular at making it into the playoffs......And before you say it, Defenses aren't doing it all by themselves: It also takes Offensive scoring to be in the conversation about being a winning team.

 

[Anthony!]

I basically agree with everything Laloosh has said in this thread.

Also, people offer examples so that other people can get the gist of the type of thing they're talking about. Pretening that an example is some type of bizarre "always or never" statement doesn't make any sense.

I also like that as one of his examples Laloosh offered a play in which Rodgers does what we're talking about really well, but then either threw the ball away (deceptively from within the pocket) or just really boned it on his accuracy. Always great to see examples of someone doing something really well on a play that ultimately didn't end up being successful, as it's a reminder that we have to think about these things independently.

As for Wilson improving on this part of his game this season, I couldn't agree more. Over the last six months or so I've written as much at least a couple times. Last offseason I said it was the area of his game for which I thought he was most in need of improvent (and that I was surprised that he hadn't developed at all IMO in this area yet), and during the year and after it I said I had noticed improvement, which was good to see.

That said, I still think this is the one part of his game in which he can really stand to have even more improvement. It's really for me the only area in which he's inferior (to varying degrees) from the other top QBs in the NFL. On everything else he's right with those guys or above them. He's doing it some of it now, but needs to improve still, both with regards to developing the skill in tighter quarters and displaying it more consistently. If that's offensive to you, eh, so be it.

so again he does it but you want to see more, but cannot show how he does it any less or more than QBs who you think are Elite but that is the reason he is not elite. Wow Its not that it is or is not offensive its just that it make no sense, you are trying to hold Wilson to a higher standard than other QBs who are supposedly elite. Does he do what you are saying Rodgers does, yes, does he do it all the time, no. Does Rodgers do it all the time no. Higher standard that the problem, just because a player is Elite does not mean they cannot get better. Every QB in the League including Rodgers can get batter at things. That does not mean they are not elite.

 

[RichNhansom]

How's he compare in a comparable environment? The only senario I can really think of is the probowl and he's only plaid in two and would have 2 MVP trophies if he were any other QB.

6 TD's in 3 quarters of play when throwing to the same weapons and behind the same protection.

Last year I think we had the lowest paid O-line, receiving core and even starting RB plus TE half the season. Our O-line was ranked 32nd out of 32 teams in pass protection for the year.

I do think our receiving, TE and RB positions could all improve this year. If our O-line is even middle of the pack which is actually better than Wilson has played behind, I think we will see some amazing QB play and there will be zero question if he is elite and possibly none as to if he's the best in the game.

 

[Popeyejones]

Your opinion is not offensive at all....Look...Showing cherry picked examples proves nothing.

Lords of Scythia asked what I meant by "manipulating the pocket." Laloosh and I then "cherry picked" examples that answered Lord's question.

It's like if you asked someone what a crossover dribble was and then got pissed when they only showed you good and bad examples of basketball players trying to cross people over.

so again he does it but you want to see more, but cannot show how he does it any less or more than QBs who you think are Elite

Just to be clear, you're annoyed at Laloosh and I because we have not cut up and spliced together every passing down over the last few years for every top QB?

That's what you're asking for. It's ridiculous. If you disagree with our interpretation of an area (IMO maybe the only area) in which Wilson still needs to improve that's fine, I really don't care, but please don't act like I'm trying to boondoggle you because our opinions differ and I offered an example of the type of thing I'm talking about.

As for the rest of your post, you were basically just repeating things I'd already said (nobody does all things well all the time; people can improve at things over time; etc.) while treating them like disagreements.

 

[JGreen79]

I'd have to agree with Popeye and laloosh. Imo Green Bay's line is just as bad if not worse than Seattle's. More often than not Russel makes extra work for his line by making his line move to the defender. As stated pocket manipulation is making the defender have to move through the line.

Russ is very skilled at making this work for him though, most of the time. When he develops this skill it'll will be damn near impossible to stop him assuming everything else he already does well continues the path its on.

 

[scutterhawk]

I'd have to agree with Popeye and laloosh. Imo Green Bay's line is just as bad if not worse than Seattle's. More often than not Russel makes extra work for his line by making his line move to the defender. As stated pocket manipulation is making the defender have to move through the line.

Russ is very skilled at making this work for him though, most of the time. When he develops this skill it'll will be damn near impossible to stop him assuming everything else he already does well continues the path its on.

Wow, I had no idea that GB's O-Line was ranked as bad as the Seahawks......You can't get any lower than 32 LOL.
The first half of last season, Wilson had NO pocket to manipulate, hence the reason for his apprehension and distrust of the Center making the proper adjustments and giving him some semblance of pass protection....having been sacked MORE than anyone else in the NFL, and a messed up O-Line (graded # 32), people are expecting Wilson to "Manipulate" a nonexistent Pocket?
It wasn't until Pete Carroll & Tom Cable decided to go with Lewis @ Center, that we all witnessed a COMPLETE turnaround in Wilsons play.....He and Baldwin tore it up like no other QB & Receiver in the League in those last 7 regular season games......It showed that he can indeed play at an "Elite" level.