Who won the Max Unger/ Jimmy Graham Trade?

[Mad Dog]

Trade like all good trades was a push.
Max has been healthy and a solid centre for the Saints. The first rounder was a bust.
Graham has been the best receiving TE in team history but not always healthy or great as a blocking TE. The 4th rounder was used in a trade up to allow us to get Lockett but that doesn't make it brilliant use.

Both teams got something they wanted and have seen solid if unspectacular play. At the time people thought we fleeced the Saints but that hasn't worked out that way.

 

[Joyodongo]

Saints clearly won. The only good trade this FO has made so far has been Lynch (let's see how Richardson's trade develops).

 

[HawkerD]

Most everyone here is just comparing Unger and Graham and forgetting we lost out on a chance at a first rounder (being the 31st pick you could consider it a high second rounder). Also that was 2 years in a row we weren't getting a pick in the first round after the Harvin Debacle. Guys that would have been available were the likes of Landon Collins, Donovan Smith, Malcom Brown, Eric Kendricks among others.

JG caught a lot of balls last year but I only remember one or two money catches. We could have got a lot of those catches with Cooper Helfert.

The Oline has been in taters since Unger left. He has only missed a single start since he was traded.

We all said and knew JG was soft when he was with the Saints. When we traded for him we all back tracked on that. After 3 years we know that it to be true. It worked for the style the Saints play but it doesn't work here. I saw him try and chip a DL-man last week and he basically failed at that.

There is no way in the world that he is resigned. That will be telling enough. Not nearly as bad as the Harvin trade but definitely not a good trade for the Seahawks.

BTW, wish I could block Siouxhawk.

 

[Chapow]

Jimmy Graham had the best year of any TE in Seahawks history last year, but apparently he hasn't done anything here.

The only thing that makes any sense at this point is that some people either have no idea what they are talking about and just parrot a false narrative that seems true to them or they have grossly unrealistic expectations and anything that falls short of those expectations = "Hasn't done anything".

 

[kobebryant]

Is Lockett here without that 4th rounder from the Saints? I don't know. That would factor into my opinion, so it is kind of hard to say.

Does Britt become 'very good center Justin Britt' if Max is still here? probably not. Too many factors, but ifthat trade isn't made we're probably looking at a team with Max Unger but not with Tyler Lockett and a good version of Justin Britt.

 

[jammerhawk]

I think Unger was unlikely to have been kept as he had become too expensive for the results he delivered in the 2 years prior to the trade. He was a good C but couldn't stay healthy, much like Okung.

Seattle traded a 1st round pick and Unger for Graham making it a costly trade for Seattle, but acquired Lockett as part of the deal. To date Graham lost the best part of a season to his patellar ligament injury but has not been well incorporated into the team's O as our OC has limitations in figuring how to best take advantage of his size and ability. Unfortunately Graham has proven to be very very expensive for the results delivered but that is a factor of how he's used here.

In the end weighing it up, and it's close, but I'd have to go with NO winning the trade. Graham could still be very special if Bevell would use him differently. Unfortunately Bevell rarely seems to use TEs well.

 

[RCATES]

Unger is and always will be injury prone. I liked the trade then and I still like it now. Britt is a stud and much younger. Have the Saints realistically replaced Graham's TE #'s on their roster? No.

Since the trade Hawks record is 22-13-1 w: playoff wins both years along with a division championship.
Saints are 16-20 (4 games under .500) and haven't even sniffed the playoffs.

You tell me..........

 

[semiahmoo]

Jimmy Graham had the best year of any TE in Seahawks history last year, but apparently he hasn't done anything here.

True dat. Jimmy's frustrated. Fans are frustrated.

He's probably out of here after this season so it'll be another "what if" kind of thing.

Last game when he was underthrown by Russ for an interception and people were like "why didn't Jimmy jump up and take it?" Really. Guy was lumbering down the lane the opposite direction and he's supposed to come to a full stop turn around and go back to try and jump down at an underthrown ball?

That was Wilson's interception - not Jimmy's.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

One was on Russ, the other was clearly on Jimmy. Russ had 5 incompletions the entire day.
I'll allow it :irishdrinkers:

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Jimmy Graham had the best year of any TE in Seahawks history last year, but apparently he hasn't done anything here.

1. That's not saying much, considering we've never had an amazing Pro Bowl caliber TE in 40 years. Mike Tice? Jeramy Stevens? Zach Miller? John Carlson? Not exactly a laundry list of HOF'ers there.

2. Expectations. When we traded for Graham, many of us envisioned 1,500 yards and 15 TD's, like he was rolling in New Orleans.

Probably not fair being in this offense, but none the less those were the expectations of a LOT of fans. So yeah Graham's done OK, maybe even above average for a year. But when you're one of the highest paid TE's, and you just got traded for a very good center, the expectations are very high..........and frankly he hasn't lived up to those expectations.

 

[jlwaters1]

Jimmy Graham had the best year of any TE in Seahawks history last year, but apparently he hasn't done anything here.

The only thing that makes any sense at this point is that some people either have no idea what they are talking about and just parrot a false narrative that seems true to them or they have grossly unrealistic expectations and anything that falls short of those expectations = "Hasn't done anything".

But why is this a surprise we've seen over the last few years because of social media and instant reactions people jumping to conclusions or believing what they want to believe despite facts and data. We've gone from an logical/analytical culture to a emotional/ perception becoming more important than reality.

We see this in both Politics, Sports and pop culture. (A good sports example is the "FAIL MARY" The perception is that GB got completely jobbed. You can't convince the National media that was a legit call.

Everyone seems to overlook you must have 2 feet down to have a proper catch... And Tate completed the requirements for a valid catch before the GB guy.)

I do wish Jimmy was more effective in the redzone, but he's been a good player when healthy. Which is why Max was so expendable, he missed nearly a QUARTER of the games the final 2 years he was here. The 1st requirement for being a good player is you have to be "available".

 

[flmmkrz]

I rarely if ever agree with Sioux but here I do to a point but there is still time for this to pay off. I dont think Jimmy has been used effectively by this coaching staff to date which is stopping us from crushing this trade tho he was still very good for us last year and there was a trickle down that came with this trade. Lockett for one, Britt was going to the scrap heap and turned into a legit quality center every bit as good as Unger which would never have happened if Unger was still occupying his role. You can argue that the money for Jimmy could be better utilized on the oline but just the trade on their merits, id still take what we got over what we gave up and if the coaching staff can pull their heads out of their asses and free him up and let one of the other tes handle more blocking duties we can still get a lot more out of him this year. So tbd but edge us still.

 

[hawk45]

Jimmy Graham had the best year of any TE in Seahawks history last year, but apparently he hasn't done anything here.

Pretty much this.

We have a bad habit of undervaluing players because the team doesn't win the Super Bowl.

For me, impact enters into it. We weren't awful between the 20s before we made this trade, he was brought here specifically to address red zone woes, and to this day it feels like he's under-utilized (I'm not assigning blame, it just hasn't worked out that way).

He could have half the receiving yards he had last year but if the impression was one of a noticeable red-zone impact I think most fans would be thrilled.

 

[Optimus25]

Saints clearly won. The only good trade this FO has made so far has been Lynch (let's see how Richardson's trade develops).

Sorry but I disagree with the "Saints clearly won" narrative. I don't have the time to research but it would be interesting to see how many TE's in the league had 65 receptions, 923 yds, and 6 TDs last year. I'm not saying he was a league leader, but in terms of the Seahawks system and Jimmy putting up those numbers considering it was a down year for Russell Wilson by any measure, I'm calling last year a great success story. And oh by the way, that was a year he was coming off a complete knee blowout when many were just surprised to see him on the field for game 1, let alone taking shots and getting right up. His 2015 numbers were tracking to identically match his 2016 output, for the record. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that 60 something receptions, 900 something yds, and 6 TDs for 2 years running should be categorized as bust/unsuccessful. For perspective he had 15 receptions and over a hundred yards receiving more than Dez.

In fact, after quick research I see him on the 2016 season leaderboard as the #3 TE for yards. How many teams in the league again? 32? and he was #3 in yardage on a team that doesn't feature him to potential and is known to desperately try to establish the run? What is Max Unger now suddenly worth Antonio Brown or something?

Unger developed into a fine lineman and I wouldn't even comment on someone editorializing that the Saints won the trade. But in some sort of knockout, dominating fashion that is clearly not up for debate? Clearly not.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It's also fit.

Has/Is Jimmy a good "fit" in Seattle? Pete's mantra since day one has been he wants to be a nasty, physical will imposing run first ball control shorten the game type team............on both sides of the ball.

Does Jimmy fit that mold? Nope, not even close. He's a finesse freak athlete that when given the freedom and time can be devastating.

IMO I like these sorts of trades, I always want our GM and coach swinging for the fences with trades and picks. But since day one Jimmy has not been a good fit here. Not all his fault for sure, but none the less I would say this trade has been mediocre at best, and probably more towards the bust side of things when you consider how much Graham's cap hit is.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Don't think it really matters others imo for reasons already stated.

Maybe we didn't win the trade in 2015.

But Graham was valuable in 2016, and setting franchise records, while being really a dominant safety valve for an immobile Russ.

2017 has looked complicated this far Graham. But I doubt that will remain the case.

Seahawks in the first quarter of the season, you can tell there's been a special attention in developing and strengthening the physicality and chemistry in the running game in all parts.

The passing game has been hit or miss, but protection and drops have been an issue early on this season as well as time in general. Opposing offenses are nickle and diming the Seahawks D trying to win T.O.P. So refining has been an issue as leading to timing and execution troubles.

I think that definately irons out moving forward to point where specifically Graham and Wilson are going to get in sync and develop that dominant connection.

Also, most people with Graham only look at the one part , whether or not, he's an elite pass catcher.

They still say he is a bad blocker, even through has developed in that aspect. I think starting to become more solid as a blocker. Not saying he's good but definitely not as bad as people make him seem based on seeing one play where he might get dominated or whiff.

Around the league (not just here), I've seen O-Linemen, bigger and stronger, whose job is solely to block, get dominated and miss assignments too. That's the NFL.

People will say Graham is soft because of few plays. But I've seen this guy make tough, physical catches in traffic and he's constantly having to make difficult plays on the ball where he's being draped, face guarded, and held. And like right now where timing is an issue and the execution of something like exact ball placement, it's going to lead to negative plays.

People look at his production and usage yet at the same time might neglect what he's doing maybe as a decoy. Is he being bracketed and accounted for pulling coverages that might allow other players to have more space. Is he helping to clear the middle of the field, where Wilson can find room to run? Etc.

I'll admit Graham probably isn't the best fit for a team with aspirations to be a tough, physical running game but he's far from worthless in this system. I also feel his skillset is better suited for RBs like McKissic and Prosise than guys like Lynch, Carson, and Lacy. Rawls is more of a tweenner. Where the space JG might open for them in the middle can spark big plays or possibly the threat of the RBs as WRs, might open things up for Graham to find a mismatch.. But it's always going to come down always in execution and protection, if that's not clean, the results won't be positive.

That's why I'm excited, I feel the Seahawks are starting to find thier rhythm in terms of refining, galvanizing, being on the same page, and just really fine tuning what really works and what needs to be worked on and fixing it.

I see an offense that's going to get better and that's going to really open up for Graham, who in my opinion thrives on rhythm in terms of dominating games like a lot of players do.

 

[nanomoz]

I never understood the trade, honestly, given the way the Seahawk's offense seemed to work. I would have rather had a Kyle Brady-type TE. A world-beater as a blocker, and slightly above average as a target.

But the offense has changed some, in a way that should lead to more targets for Graham as this season progresses. We'll see. If he stays healthy I think he will produce about what he did last year. He's had a rough start, though. He definitely misses being in that offense.

Unger has only missed one game since he's been in Nawlins. He missed thirteen in his final two years in Seattle. He was successfully replaced, eventually, after a year of the center position being an open wound.

Push?

 

[pittpnthrs]

I'm going to give the edge to the Saints. Lets face it, when was the last time the Seahawks had a dominate offense? 2015 when Graham was hurt. Coincidence? I admit that I don't follow the Saints at all, but I never see any NFL programs complaining or showing Drew Brees getting killed all the time due to his offensive line. This is why I give it to the Saints. They need and benefit from Unger. The Seahawks don't need Graham and seem to do better without him.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

So far it's looking like a lose/lose trade for both teams!

 

[TwistedHusky]

It was a bad trade for the Seahawks.

Losing Unger, really hurt our effectiveness with Lynch. And that led to him leaving. I think we could have gotten 1-2 more years with Lynch otherwise and maybe at least 1 SB win, considering how weak the teams in the Carolina Denver SB were.

Graham was almost immediately replaced by other WRs that ended up producing well for the Saints. Basically they just threw it to someone else.

Meanwhile without Unger our run game just sputtered. And while Unger had a problem with the snap occasionally, one thing Russ seemed to do well was deal with the center snapping him the ball and occasionally the ball going in the wrong direction.

If you recall I was pretty livid about the trade, precisely for a lot of the above reasons.

But we cannot go backwards. It was a huge missed opportunity for this team, and it was a sign this team was going to bet on Wilson to be the one that carries this team instead of the defense. That bet, we lost. Wilson can win it for you and he can pull out wins in the end - given the moments. But he cannot carry this team, it wins and loses because of the defense.

And that trade was a big bet that given the right weapons, we could win the back of our QB. Probably something the FO regrets to this day.

We not only lost the trade but we lost the draft pick that would have been a player we could be using right now.