Why I think Brandon Coleman should be a priority for Seattle

[HawkWow]

Posting a picture of his stat line (as someone did earlier) is pointless.

The Rutgers passing game has been among the NCAA's worst since Tom Savage transferred. It's an absolute joke, led by an embarrassingly poor QB.

It is somewhat true that stats are irrelevant without context. However, I'll give it another go, with an additional spirit of humility & fun. Here's Adams 'pointless' statitics for a reference marker. Emphasis on the game stats head to head in Week 1 (almost identical), to the total difference in the consistent body of Adams onfield work. Only 25 more catches for the entire rest of the season for Coleman...117 for Adams... it speaks volumes!

As for the sad sack state of the Rutgers passing game; that's 100% true. They suck, and I want nothing whatsoever to do with them, or their "passing game", ever. Lest it infect ours like a flu virus... or fleas... or bedbugs... or jungle fungus!!! or some other such hacking nasty... I mean keep that thing in Quarantine!

And yet, if we are actually shooting for a true #1 WR, at #32, and somehow end up with a solid #2 with route running experience in a creative West Coast passing attack(Adams), I say ok great. But gambling on another unproven boom or bust 'Go Route or Go stand on the sidelines' guy seems to me like an unnecessary risk at this point in our budding dynasty. KState & Rutgers? For WRs? Give me a break. It would suck bigtime to go for a true #1 BIG WR, again, and find out in retrospect we ended up with a #5or#6 rarely used/low production numbers/rosterspace eater wr(Coleman), who is not even a decent upgrade over Lockette at gunner/special team tackler.

Most importantly, I'd like to state that I do not wish to debate this player's actual value just for the sake of being argumentative:
---kearly & Rob, you both have my utmost respect---:

However, IMO... please be very, very, wary of being lovestruck with Coleman's measurables, while disregarding his low floor.

Drafting a first round WR from the nations worst "absolute joke" passing attack... makes about as much sense as drafting a first round RB from the nations worst running team... i.e. It simply makes little or no sense.

Instead, while completely ignoring the irrelevant stats below,
this time: Dream... say, Russell Wilson's QB motto/WR wishlist: "Y'Know... What I really want is (to be) a world class baller... not just a guy who is taller."

I mean goodness graciousness, we might be able to get Aaron Donald at #32!, instead of Coleman. Think about it... and laugh a little.

Great post. I thank you, Davonte Adams thanks you. I will give him more attention.

And one more thing on Coleman's "speed": at 220, he would be running neck and neck with ASJ...6'7" 276. That's our #1, IMO.

 

[kigenzun]

[edited for excessive passion, content & nsfw imagery.]

Imagine: Seahawks back to back! Repeat as Champs!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tj1J4daJ4o
Just can't wait 'til next year!
I can hear the 12's roaring now, as Jim Harbaugh sez, " OHHH NOOO...NOOOOOOOO....NOOOOOOOOOOOOO...DOH!!! "

 

[Mr.Hawkbrah]

This is like a pff analysis, much of what you said is relatively true, but it lacks some context that gives the real truth behind it.

How does one go up snatch the ball out of the air when the balls arnt being thrown so he can do that? almost none of those passes were thrown to lead him or up high enough to take advantage of his height.. if he wasnt 6 6 he would have to jump to high point some of those... but since hes 6 6 and cant be short enough to need to reach and jump thats a bad thing? how does someone extend his arms when they are waiting/readjusting for the ball thats behind them? his qb not taking advantage of his height is not an indication that that he cant take advantage himself, he cant throw the ball to himself.

ive seen many times where wilsons scrambling and our wrs are dogging it down the field, running routes straight towards the sidelines ect, i think our wrs get a little too much love on here and a little too much hate from everyone else.

First off, I had no desire to offer a complex study, or write an "analysis" on a player I know we won't be taking....and I'm not saying I'm capable of doing so either. I was simply pointing out a few glaring weakness' in his game...and why I don't believe he will be a Hawk.

Second, you should watch his (highlight) reels again. You will see the balls that were thrown high, he jumped up to catch with his body..as I said, he plays shorter than his length. Basically, you have a 6'6" 220 guy playing smaller, but still offering a huge target to get jammed at the line. Further...I'm unsure where all this talk of his blazing speed originated. @ 4.6..we have TEs that our faster. Willson, in particular, is capable of doing everything Coleman does, at 30 lbs heavier.

I also stated I've seen other film on him where he took himself out of plays and he is notorious for not going back to bail out his scrambling QB. You're saying our current guys, Rice aside, are known for this as well?

I've already spent too much time with what looks to me like an NFL bust, so I will put my money where my mouth is and offer you a bet: IF the Hawks take Coleman (in any rd), I will quit posting on this board. If we don't draft him...you do the same. Deal?

It's all about dat action, boss.[/quote]

It's not a matter of a complex study... he had erratic qbs that don't lead him with the football, even on one of those jump balls it wasn't a bomb, more like a lob that ended up Short. Like I said, much of what you said was true, why would I need to re watch anything? I'm just saying there's more reason to him catching the balls like that then just his own ability. Heck, maybe he will never have great hands, but we won't know till he's not getting thrown to by A bunch of bums.

When/if at full health, he won't be running a 4.6 imo, you see the angles he was beating people with, that's why people say he's fast.

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, most of our wrs have a great disappearing act they do, It's just when they do get open its for a 20 yard gain so people like to have a selective memory about it.

Nah, Im cool. that's a horrible deal, I have higher odds of losing yet equal outcomes. you could stop posting forever And I wouldn't blink an eye, doesn't matter to me either way. Lynch would be rolling reading about all this Internet action.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

As much as Doug Baldwin might feed off of disrespect from the media, the reality is that our offense is at its best by far when our receiving corps force defenses to give them extra attention. When Sidney Rice hit IR earlier this season, it was only a short while after his absence that opposing DCs began to disrespect our WRs and some issues began to arise when teams freed their defense up enough to blitz Wilson and attack the bootleg. And Sidney Rice had just 15 receptions at the time, a little less than 2 receptions per game. It wasn't Rice's 2013 production that scared defenses, it was the 'idea' of Sidney Rice that scared them, the idea that at any moment he could go back to being the 1300 yard receiver he was in 2009.

That same level of respect just doesn't exist from guys like Stephen Williams and Ricardo Lockette. And it certainly doesn't exist from Jermaine Kearse (6'2"). Part of that is a lack of production, but part of it is also the fact that Rice physically resembles (build, height/weight, etc) a Larry Fitzgerald type receiver, and while Williams is somewhat intimidating physically, he just makes every catch look so damn difficult. Rice may not be productive, but he has the look of a #1 receiver, he makes it look easy when he catches the ball, and he has a 1300 yard season in his past.

Coleman is more intimidating than any of these guys physically. He's 6'6" with long arms and terrifying speed (his running style and speed remind of Colin Kaepernick). His career yards per catch average is an astonishing 19.2. When you put Coleman under the microscope, he has issues to be sure. But the potential of Coleman turning into a 1500 yard receiver in a typical offense is very real, and therefore the 'idea' of Coleman is quite a bit scarier than perhaps the actual Brandon Coleman is.

If Seattle is going to part ways with Sidney Rice, they need a guy who intimidates defensive coordinators with massive big play potential. There are many other reasons I think Coleman fits Seattle and PC/JS like a glove, but if Seattle seeks a WR in this draft it can't just be a clutch Roddy White type guy, it needs to be a guy who scares the bejeebus out of defenses, even if in reality he only makes a couple catches a game.

Good analysis. It reminds me of how teams play Richard Sherman--they stay the hell away from him. Sherman is such a great shutdown corner, he never has to shut anyone down.

 

[HawkWow]

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, most of our wrs have a great disappearing act they do, It's just when they do get open its for a 20 yard gain so people like to have a selective memory about it.

Selective memory?

Well, how exactly did RW tie Manning's 1st year record for TDs, last year...then basically duplicate that number again this year?

How has Wilson managed to complete 64% of his passes and maintain a better than 100 QB rating over the past 2 years?

In an earlier post you suggested Coleman "couldn't throw the ball to himself". Are you suggesting Wilson is doing just that? Because stats show he's throwing to someone, and that someone is catching the ball.

If the WRs were disappearing, obviously Wilson would be throwing the ball away a lot. Right? That 64% completion rate proves that untrue. Unless you are suggesting this inept group of hide and seek WRs forced him to pull the ball down and run with it? But that would also be untrue and most would argue he's not doing that frequently enough.

What is true is we have a very capable set of WRs and drop stats show they have excellent hands. They also block well, make difficult catches look routine and run like RBs once they have the ball. The addition of a taller red zone guy would be great, but that in no way diminishes the talent of our current group.

 

[Recon_Hawk]

I have little doubt Coleman is a Pete Carroll type prospect, but I would argue not a first round priority.

The recent 6'5 WR Chris Matthews signing reminds me a lot of other previous FA signings. They sign a lesser talented player before the draft that allows the front office to not feel like they have to reach for a need. For example: Barrett Ruud, (MLB) signed before the draft and traded away after drafting Bobby Wagner (even after trading back to get him). Matt Flynn, gave the freedom to let Wilson drop to the 3rd round. Tony McDaniel, allowed the team to draft a running back in the 2nd before drafting Hill and Williams in the 3rd and 5th rounds.

Overall, I see Coleman as being the big body receiver that is over hyped by a few, downplayed by a few, and then drafted in the 2nd/3rd making everyone happy.

 

[Mr.Hawkbrah]

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, most of our wrs have a great disappearing act they do, It's just when they do get open its for a 20 yard gain so people like to have a selective memory about it.

Selective memory?

Well, how exactly did RW tie Manning's 1st year record for TDs, last year...then basically duplicate that number again this year?

How has Wilson managed to complete 64% of his passes and maintain a better than 100 QB rating over the past 2 years?

In an earlier post you suggested Coleman "couldn't throw the ball to himself". Are you suggesting Wilson is doing just that? Because stats show he's throwing to someone, and that someone is catching the ball.

If the WRs were disappearing, obviously Wilson would be throwing the ball away a lot. Right? That 64% completion rate proves that untrue. Unless you are suggesting this inept group of hide and seek WRs forced him to pull the ball down and run with it? But that would also be untrue and most would argue he's not doing that frequently enough.

What is true is we have a very capable set of WRs and drop stats show they have excellent hands. They also block well, make difficult catches look routine and run like RBs once they have the ball. The addition of a taller red zone guy would be great, but that in no way diminishes the talent of our current group.

11 out of 16 games baldwin caught less than 5 balls. 9 games out of 16 games tate caught less than 5 balls...whether thats a product of our offense or not, I dont think its a wild concept to consider our wrs disappear from time to time for whatever reason. tate/baldwin/kearse are probably one of the most solid supporting casts in the league, but none of them are game breakers that tilt the field, without rice or percy on the field they are significantly less efficient, which does not make them bad, i just dont hold them as highly touted as some of you for those reasons.

I have no clue why youre drawing a parallel to rw from my comments. Hes the most efficient qb in the league, and our wrs do have solid hands. im not going to argue why i think his % is so high, but if you feel our wrs essentially make RW the player he is youre entitled to your opinion.

my comment about coleman not being able to throw the ball to himself was about your comments on his ability to catch the ball, nothing more than that, its pretty clear your are just looking for an argument. but if its any consolation i would not be shocked if colemans not a seahawk, never said i expect him to be, the fact that id want him to be just makes it more likely he wont be knowing js and pete so dont worry.

 

[kigenzun]

Oh oh...
We just signed Chris Matthews, Winnipeg Blue Bombers, No. 13.
24 years old, formerly out of University of Kentucky.
6’5, 218 pounds, 4.57 at his Pro Day in 2011.

He's big, loves to block, & he's good.

CFL rookie of the year 2012 (81 catches for 1,192 yards and 7 TDs)
but, was Injured during 2013 (missed 13 games; 14 passes for 138 yards and one touchdown)
still...

TBH This signing pretty much is the death knell on drafting Brandon Coleman's "potential" in either Round 1 or Round 2.
It also likely spells the end of Sidney Rice's big pricetag/playing time.

IMO JSPC may still go for another big guy like Kelvin Benjamin, if he's there at #32, as a hybrid style WR/joker TE (aka in addition to Matthews), to be used specifically for jumpballs into the red zone, inside the 10, and into the end zone for TDs... but at this point I predict ...

If the Seahawks do draft a WR in the first, it will likely be Odell Beckham Jr. or Davante Adams to replace Golden Tate.
Of the two, Beckham Jr. will probably be gone earlier because he can also return kicks and punts, but personally I prefer Adams as a WR for his abilities in a variety of contexts, excellent hands, jump cut YAC moves, post-up body control/ basketball background, and 43 inch vertical leap.
But that's just me.
:snack:

 

[Mr.Hawkbrah]

On the Matthews subject:
best case scenario-he replaces rice
Most optimistic realistic scenario-he bumps down Kearses role
Most realistic pessimistic scenario- gets cut or takes lockettes roster spot.

Signing a cfl guy is cool news but the odds of it changing our Draft plans are slim to none. I think people underestimate Petes love for physical domination, the reason our roster is filled with smaller quicker guys has more to do with the bang for the buck he got on them and missing and not prioritizing on Petes big type of wrs during the rebuilding process. Imo of course.

 

[Natethegreat]

I think signing Matthews says two things.
A. They are looking to add some legth to this receiving core.
B. They don't want to be locked into overdrafting a guy to get bigger/taller
I doubt they spend a first on Coleman but then again he could blow up at the combine too so who knows. I personally don't want to use a first on him too uch potential for bust.

 

[kigenzun]

On the Matthews subject:
best case scenario-he replaces rice
Most optimistic realistic scenario-he bumps down Kearses role
Most realistic pessimistic scenario- gets cut or takes lockettes roster spot.

Signing a cfl guy is cool news but the odds of it changing our Draft plans are slim to none. I think people underestimate Petes love for physical domination, the reason our roster is filled with smaller quicker guys has more to do with the bang for the buck he got on them and missing and not prioritizing on Petes big type of wrs during the rebuilding process. Imo of course.

I think signing Matthews says two things.
A. They are looking to add some legth to this receiving core.
B. They don't want to be locked into overdrafting a guy to get bigger/taller
I doubt they spend a first on Coleman but then again he could blow up at the combine too so who knows. I personally don't want to use a first on him too much potential for bust.

Yes to both of the above. Good points all, and valid, logical, reasonable perspective on our overallWR situation. I know I'm down on Coleman in this thread, (and pro-KB or DA) but I'm not trying to be a complete ahole... Just doing my best to show a passionate sense of what some of the rest of us believe: that Coleman is a big mistake before Day 3. And that we could do better, much better, on Days 1 & 2.

IMO we address DL(x2), OL, TE , WR2, & slotCB (in any order) before taking on a project like BC. Who, I would be all for, btw, if we could get him in the 5th, 5th, or 6th, and redshirt/heal/develop him a bit like we did with Jesse Williams last year. Like Coleman, Jesse had "future potential", but was both clearly not NFL ready yet, AND not 100%.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

Yes to both of the above. Good points all, and valid, logical, reasonable perspective on our overallWR situation. I know I'm down on Coleman in this thread, (and pro-KB or DA) but I'm not trying to be a complete ahole... Just doing my best to show a passionate sense of what some of the rest of us believe: that Coleman is a big mistake before Day 3. And that we could do better, much better, on Days 1 & 2.

IMO we address DL(x2), OL, TE , WR2, & slotCB (in any order) before taking on a project like BC. Who, I would be all for, btw, if we could get him in the 5th, 5th, or 6th, and redshirt/heal/develop him a bit like we did with Jesse Williams last year. Like Coleman, Jesse had "future potential", but was both clearly not NFL ready yet, AND not 100%.

No Aholeness. Honestly, I've been really critical of Seattle's early picks and Irvin in particular. In general, I have come to expect Seattle to heavily disappoint me early on in the draft. And I'm not going to lie, I'm not thrilled with a lot of Coleman tape this year. Although last year's tape was truly scintillating.

I don't think the signing of Matthews indicates anything. He's a guy. We bring in these guys by the bushel. See if he sticks -- but nothing usually comes of it. I certainly would not expect Seattle to reconsider any draft grading they've done to this point because we have him. Remember, Seattle typically has their board already graded out before the combine begins. So adding an unknown late isn't going to factor into our base roster grade.

Coleman isn't going to be there in the 4th. His physical gifts and potential is just too great for that. There are teams other than us, who would covet a prospect of his profile. New England and San Diego chief among them. Seattle is a team that reaches -- sometimes maddeningly so. I think his potential has been established, his profile is ideal for what Seattle covets for the X receiver and the grade delta between him and a vacant position is likely to be very wide. Of what we know of how Seattle drafts -- Coleman is an extremely solid projection for us before R3. Opinion on him notwithstanding.

It appears we will be resiging Tate to a pretty significant number. Which really kind of dooms the prospects that Seattle drafts a sub 6'3" receiver. If Tate returns, that leaves us with Tate, Harvin, Baldwin and Kearse as our Z/Slot receivers. Those positions are locked in and very solid if that's the case. That means no Matthews, Adams, Robinson, Cooks or a lot of other really good prospects that would be widely available to us and have value. Adams and Robinson are very clearly not X receivers. Certainly not in the Seattle vision of them. They are move/Z flankers and have been so their entire careers. Their respective grades will be relative to Tate and Harvin and those are not going to be very favorable.

While I love Tate, I also would consider many of these guys to be fairly comparable to him (at a much reduced cost). This is a draft where we could have let Tate walk and reloaded with confidence.

If Tate does get resigned, I would see TE/OL as a virtual certainty with our first pick if we hold on to it. But I would expect us to make Coleman an early day 2 selection. I have a difficult time seeing us let him leave R2 and I'm not even convinced we'd trade back to the 3rd to take him. I expect us to reach a full round for him. Not because I think he'll reach his potential. But merely based on what we know of how Seattle drafts, and the expected circumstances of our roster.

 

[Mr.Hawkbrah]

Kigenzun, let's just end this madness, start spreading nasty rumors about kb so he falls to us and we can Draft him and all be happy :twisted: . If we got Coleman in the 2nd I'd be happy, don't understand how that would be such a huge mistake, high risk high reward, we will for sure have percy, db, kearse, and lockett, more than good enough even if our "risk" doesn't pay off, benefit of having a loaded team. Plus our FO is so good at finding talent there's no reason we have to play it "safe".

With that being said, I'd be way happy with dline too early on, if I had to blindly guess what position we take its a dlineman. TE in the first would be a bigger reach than any wr imo, we are so limited how We use tes that I have a hard time believing they could reach their full potential even if they weren't a bust.a guy like Fiedorowicz(sp) after the 2nd Is maximizing value for that spot imo.

 

[Threedee]

All the mock drafts I've been reading this week project Benjamin going in R1 before the Seahawks get to pick. We'll probably have to settle for a different receiver if we go that route on our first pick.

 

[kigenzun]

Kigenzun, let's just end this madness, start spreading nasty rumors about kb so he falls to us and we can Draft him and all be happy.

LOL... that dawned on me this morning too Hawkbrah... & so, here's what I've got so far.. he he. :sarcasm_on:

Though, I've always thought KB fits the Seahawks well, (as a contrast to what we've got now: i.e. Red zone, settle for the FG issues...) I really don't think most other teams have the luxury to spend a Top 30 Draftpick on a serious boom or bust guy like Kevin Beenjammin.

Firstly, KB's not even an every down wide receiver, and though he's really really BIG... he's slow AND he's got the dropsies... which are not exactly traits you want to spend a Top30 pick on. Especially when you could easily spend it so wisely elsewhere.

Sure, he could be a #1 WR in Seattle, but that's because all they have now is Smurfs. On a real team, in the real world, in a real division, he could easily be a Bigtime Bust Guy thats sets a franchise back for a decade; like Big Mike Williams did in Detroit, &/or Reggie Williams did in Jacksonville.

For a true flagship franchise to invest such high draft capitol value into an unproven 1st Rd. WR, in this deepest of all WR classes... , well thats just silly. Even thinking of wasting valuable, valuable 1st round draft capitol, that could be better spent on solid Pro Bowl Offensive Linemen that will last for decades, and decades, dutifully protecting legitimate franchise Quarterbacks-- on a molasses slow WR is absolutely ridiculous.

Personally, I wonder why other GM's would even want to consider trying to blend a drop machine like Kevin into their precious $ pie, let alone drafting him in Round One, and paying him more! Especially, when there are so many, many, many better options at other critically important positions.

Bottomline: Its the 1st round... go the safe route... draft a tackle. Protect the Franchise. Its the right thing to do.

Personally, I'm betting KB's 15 minutes of fame are over, and he is finally totally exposed and debunked at The Combine; when he sleeps through his interviews, runs 4.8, drops a whole bunch 'o easy passes, is actually only 6'3" 5/8, and has trouble learning the most basic of playbooks due to a 2 on the Wonderlic Test. Certainly, other GM's should be very, very, wary of him dying a slow but sure death in Buffalo at #9, or having to singlehandedly resurrect that disaster that is the Jets "passing game" at #18. After all...he's certainly no sure thing to be a first round franchise changing #1WR. The Chiefs need a TE, the Panthers need safeties, the Patriots and Broncos just need defense, and the 49ers already have Boldin & Crabtree, who are are clearly both Top 5 NFL receivers just behind Jones, Green, and MegaTron.

TBH if KB goes top-15 and is expected to be 'the Man' somehow on a bad, bad, bad team like the Jets or Buffalo, i think more than likely he'll bust like Braylon Edwards. After all, his stats really aren't that great, and the reality was that he was on a stacked team at Florida State: with a solid WR core, Heisman Trophy Quarterback, and speedy individuals at nearly every other skill position... let's just say he benefitted a whole lot from the talent around him, and only caught only 4 lousy passes on like 27 targets in the championship game. And most of those others went right off his hands...

Yes, he caught the game-winner... but it was from only 2 yards out... and anybody coulda done that! Don't forget KB's first half drops, directly resulted in an undefeated FSU team being down 21-3 at the half. The reality is that he was only their #3 WR, at best, in that game. Because it was totally obvious the real stars were Rashad Greene with 9 catches for 147 yards, and Levonte Whitfield with a 100 yard kickoff return TD, both of which barely kept FSU in the game long enough for 'TheBeesKnees' to finally show up.

Plus, I was rooting for Auburn to go all the way that night...so damn that Kevin Beenjammin, and his 2yard touchdown It wasn't fair I tell ya. We knew it was coming but he's just soooo BIG! I swear he totally pushed down our tiny CB, like swatting a fly, and the refs didn't even call it... plus, that ball touched the ground I tell ya...Everybody could see that he dropped it on the replay! Arrrrrrrggghhh!!!! Friggin' War Eagle Forever!! Dammit all... dammit all to hell! :thfight7:

As Seahawks fans, I think we'd be lucky to have a potential future superstar at #32 like Brandon Coleman... instead He can't miss!!!
Once again, JSPC would be regarded for being draft genius', with miles & miles & miles of style and vision, and really really really longarms... to be able to reach that far.
How's that...? :mrgreen: :sarcasm_off:

 

[Mr.Hawkbrah]

Kigenzum,

My reactions reading your post. ..

:?: :roll: :180670: :snack: :179417: :thirishdrinkers: lol. Nice man.

I'm all on board with kb, we need that end zone threat, but it's more than just that, rw needs someone he can toss it up high for his trademark jump ball no matter where we are on the field. I think we all want the same thing it's just a matter of who's more right about the players that will be available. Perhaps every gm will follow that theory of him being a 1 trick pony, then he runs a slow time, pulls a cmike and announces his love for the seahawks. Regardless I think we will find someone who fits that mold.

By saying I think I know what we'll get it pretty much guarantees we draft all defense and punters though.

 

[Natethegreat]

Heres a quote from John Schneider about his drafting approach. To me it seals what I mentioned earlier. They are bringing in Matthews so they are not compelled to reach for a tall rangy receiver.

Regarding the draft, Schneider noted his aversion to need-based selections: “We’re not going to have this player, so we have to draft this position? I think that’s where you get in trouble. Any of the draft rooms I’ve ever been in, the biggest mistakes you make are when you [draft based on position scarcity].

Tells me they do want a tall receiver and they don't want to reach for one. It also tells me they wont be spending a first on Coleman as its a reach any way you slice it.

 

[HawkWow]

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, most of our wrs have a great disappearing act they do, It's just when they do get open its for a 20 yard gain so people like to have a selective memory about it.

Selective memory?

Well, how exactly did RW tie Manning's 1st year record for TDs, last year...then basically duplicate that number again this year?

How has Wilson managed to complete 64% of his passes and maintain a better than 100 QB rating over the past 2 years?

In an earlier post you suggested Coleman "couldn't throw the ball to himself". Are you suggesting Wilson is doing just that? Because stats show he's throwing to someone, and that someone is catching the ball.

If the WRs were disappearing, obviously Wilson would be throwing the ball away a lot. Right? That 64% completion rate proves that untrue. Unless you are suggesting this inept group of hide and seek WRs forced him to pull the ball down and run with it? But that would also be untrue and most would argue he's not doing that frequently enough.

What is true is we have a very capable set of WRs and drop stats show they have excellent hands. They also block well, make difficult catches look routine and run like RBs once they have the ball. The addition of a taller red zone guy would be great, but that in no way diminishes the talent of our current group.

11 out of 16 games baldwin caught less than 5 balls. 9 games out of 16 games tate caught less than 5 balls...whether thats a product of our offense or not, I dont think its a wild concept to consider our wrs disappear from time to time for whatever reason. tate/baldwin/kearse are probably one of the most solid supporting casts in the league, but none of them are game breakers that tilt the field, without rice or percy on the field they are significantly less efficient, which does not make them bad, i just dont hold them as highly touted as some of you for those reasons.

No, I'm not looking for an argument. I simply said there are glaring weakness' in Coleman's game and pointed out those weakness'. You said that was a "pfft analysis". So, exactly who sought argument? What was peculiar to me, is you basically agreed with everything I said (!?). But enough about that. He won't be a Hawk...but Tate, Baldwin and Kearse are.

You point out how few balls that trio caught. That would have more impact if we actually threw the ball a lot. We don't....and when we do, those balls are spread out and they are caught. That is not a sign of weakness in our WRs, that is a clear sign of strength.

Further, and I know you know this...but this group of "pedestrian WRs" were supposed to be our 3, 4 and 5. Instead they became 1, 2 and 3 and against the best defenses in the league. How did they do with their 2nd year QB? They helped us win a SB.

Add Harvin, use Willson (and Miller) more and I believe we already have one of the best receiving corps in the league....and that's without spending a pick on another WR (that may or may not pan out) allowing us to strengthen something more resembling a weakness on the team. The reason we can't free up Miller is because of a REAL weakness.

As I said in a different thread, no way do I want this chemistry between RW and this group disrupted. Look at what these kids have done in their first 2 seasons together...now imagine what they can accomplish in their 3rd. Imagine the experience this group gained this year. I see no sense in letting that walk.

FTR, I am not saying we shouldn't bring in another, taller target. But I am saying it's not absolutely essential to our continued success. There's a Lombardi in town that backs my position.

Argue away...or let's agree to disagree, because you've said nothing that dis-proves my point about the value of this young group. So far your argument has been more along the lines of Miller is washed up because he catches so few TDs.

 

[Mr.Hawkbrah]

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, most of our wrs have a great disappearing act they do, It's just when they do get open its for a 20 yard gain so people like to have a selective memory about it.

Selective memory?

Well, how exactly did RW tie Manning's 1st year record for TDs, last year...then basically duplicate that number again this year?

How has Wilson managed to complete 64% of his passes and maintain a better than 100 QB rating over the past 2 years?

In an earlier post you suggested Coleman "couldn't throw the ball to himself". Are you suggesting Wilson is doing just that? Because stats show he's throwing to someone, and that someone is catching the ball.

If the WRs were disappearing, obviously Wilson would be throwing the ball away a lot. Right? That 64% completion rate proves that untrue. Unless you are suggesting this inept group of hide and seek WRs forced him to pull the ball down and run with it? But that would also be untrue and most would argue he's not doing that frequently enough.

What is true is we have a very capable set of WRs and drop stats show they have excellent hands. They also block well, make difficult catches look routine and run like RBs once they have the ball. The addition of a taller red zone guy would be great, but that in no way diminishes the talent of our current group.

11 out of 16 games baldwin caught less than 5 balls. 9 games out of 16 games tate caught less than 5 balls...whether thats a product of our offense or not, I dont think its a wild concept to consider our wrs disappear from time to time for whatever reason. tate/baldwin/kearse are probably one of the most solid supporting casts in the league, but none of them are game breakers that tilt the field, without rice or percy on the field they are significantly less efficient, which does not make them bad, i just dont hold them as highly touted as some of you for those reasons.

No, I'm not looking for an argument. I simply said there are glaring weakness' in Coleman's game and pointed out those weakness'. You said that was a "pfft analysis". So, exactly who sought argument? What was peculiar to me, is you basically agreed with everything I said (!?). But enough about that. He won't be a Hawk...but Tate, Baldwin and Kearse are.

You point out how few balls that trio caught. That would have more impact if we actually threw the ball a lot. We don't....and when we do, those balls are spread out and they are caught. That is not a sign of weakness in our WRs, that is a clear sign of strength.

Further, and I know you know this...but this group of "pedestrian WRs" were supposed to be our 3, 4 and 5. Instead they became 1, 2 and 3 and against the best defenses in the league. How did they do with their 2nd year QB? They helped us win a SB.

Add Harvin, use Willson (and Miller) more and I believe we already have one of the best receiving corps in the league....and that's without spending a pick on another WR (that may or may not pan out) allowing us to strengthen something more resembling a weakness on the team. The reason we can't free up Miller is because of a REAL weakness.

As I said in a different thread, no way do I want this chemistry between RW and this group disrupted. Look at what these kids have done in their first 2 seasons together...now imagine what they can accomplish in their 3rd. Imagine the experience this group gained this year. I see no sense in letting that walk.

FTR, I am not saying we shouldn't bring in another, taller target. But I am saying it's not absolutely essential to our continued success. There's a Lombardi in town that backs my position.

Argue away...or let's agree to disagree, because you've said nothing that dis-proves my point about the value of this young group. So far your argument has been more along the lines of Miller is washed up because he catches so few TDs.

no i said a PFF anaysis, the site that grades players, as in they do a great job analyzing different things but sometimes lack context with things as well. maybe it was a wrong comment to make regardless but it wasnt a intended as a jab or disregarding what you said like PFFT oomph you suck kind of way. i did agree with most of what you said, i made that pretty clear in my original response, my main point in grading the kid was that i felt you disregarded the kind of balls that were being thrown his way and how crappy the guys throwing it were, which naturally will impact his own performance and how he catches it based on consistently horrible ball placement.

you keep responding like im crapping on our wrs, i already said they are one of the top cores in the league, but not elite without percy and/or another legit big to play the x, i dont think we really disagree as much as its made out to be, other than my comment about them disappearing from time to time. i just think another big will help solidify/maximize our potential in this group. we can afford to pay all our guys and by the time (if he deserves it) a rooks contract is up, percy/tate(hypothetically) will be up soon too to give us some options.

i really was not intending to disprove much of anything, its just my opinion that when harvin isnt healthy, our wr core tend to be less productive, they are an amazing supporting cast, i think i came off as not appreciating that, but i really do, i just think theres ways to assure we are constantly maximizing our potential, and with a great wr class this, its a great year to get somebody. we are in the great position of picking bpa imo and so im saying this in the context of why not get this rather than dang we haveeee to. and no based on my logic, miller performs his role amazingly cause no matter what anybody else out there is doing, he remains consistent, albeit slightly overpaid, and def dont want him to go anywhere. i think the oline is something that will prove to be a lot better next year as is if we keep breno and people stay healthy. would love just as much to see them go dline in round 1, and wr in round 2, i just think that will maximize our needs while staying within the strong potential at those positions this draft year.

i think this has more to do with a misunderstanding, than simply being on totally different pages, but i can agree to disagree if you feel im just so far off here. sorry if im just rambling on here, been a long day.

 

[HawkWow]

^ Agreed. And I think I did get too defensive about our guys. You're a Hawk fan so I shouldn't assume you are anti any of these guys...no Hawk fan could be. I will take my share of responsibility for this apparent miscommunication, bro. I live in Hawaii. 9er fans out-number me 9-1. Even the most educated 9er fans (oxymoron?) trash our young guns. I suppose I am in auto-defense mode whenever the names Tate or Baldwin are mentioned (no Kearse...they don't know Kearse). Even the friendliest will say..."man, if you guys only had decent WRs". I do take exception to that and find myself arguing the subject as much as any other.

I do understand the weakness' in this group..I'm not just wearing the Hawk goggles, but these kids have pretty much made up for their perceived weakness' at every turn...oft times making RW look incredible after a less than average toss (twice on 3rd downs in the playoffs Baldwin saved RW's ass from an int.). It's their desire and ability to overcome their 'short" comings that has me committed to them. They are like the WR versions of RW himself. I just want to see thm together another year with a Harvin to buy them some space and a line to buy RW some time.

How did the HawkBrah name come about? You have connections to the islands as well? We say brah here (short for braddah) as opposed to bro or brother.