Why is it one or the other?

[ZagHawk]

I'm gonna get slammed, but I do want to question this. I know the constant battle with a lot of us here has been let russ cook vs run heavy. My question is, why did it always have to be one or the other? Like when I looked at the Seahawks offense it had enough talent on offense that any team could dream of. Mobile deadly QB, Deep Threat, Slant Threat, TEs, RBs, O-Line was good enough (when RW was not holding the ball for a huge deep pass, they held up the 2.5 seconds that a top 3 QB should be able to utilize).

It seems like what we've seen for the past years for the Hawks is it's always been about run heavy or pass heavy. Why does it have to be one or the other? and regardless of what the Hawks chose to go with, they ran that despite what the opposing defenses strengths were (say the opposing defense was good against the run or had good secondary). Personally I wasn't in the we need to run or we need to "let russ cook" camp. I wanted the hawks to gameplan against the opponents defensive weakness whether its running, death by a thousand cuts or huge chunk plays (and forgive me if I think the Hawks actually had the talent to do all of it). Anyway pulse check, anyone else felt this way.

 

[AROS]

Exactly how I've always felt about it. It shouldn't be one or the other. You game plan and scheme according to your opponent, week in and week out. If that means run it 45 times in one game and pass it 45 times in another, you do it, not because it's a philosophy you want to favor (one over the other) but because it was the best game plan for that week's opponent.

What Pete seeks is balanced ball without turning the ball over. His ideal game on offense is rushing the ball for over 100 yards off of 20-25 carries with Russ throwing it 20 times or so for 2 or 3 TDs and no turnovers.

It WAS fun to Let Russ Cook those first 6 weeks, but defenses figured it out and we didn't make the appropriate adjustments, and that was were most of our frustration came from. But back to your point, I too agree both heavy pass or heavy run shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Mix and match, either or, depending on what is appropriate for your opponent that week.

 

[jammerhawk]

This thread is totally on point.

It was clear the let Russ cook style was exposing a D that was undermanned at that stage. It is also clear that once a more conservative and slower style of O was put in place the D was protected, but the O couldn't quickly adjust styles to match adversity, and the running game was less effective than we are used to seeing.

I never understood why the team couldn't do both, or why Schotty couldn't adjust quicker. I also question why the team had few differing styles of running the ball instead of slamming it up the middle.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Exactly how I've always felt about it. It shouldn't be one or the other. You game plan and scheme according to your opponent, week in and week out. If that means run it 45 times in one game and pass it 45 times in another, you do it, not because it's a philosophy you want to favor (one over the other) but because it was the best game plan for that week's opponent.

What Pete seeks is balanced ball without turning the ball over. His ideal game on offense is rushing the ball for over 100 yards off of 20-25 carries with Russ throwing it 20 times or so for 2 or 3 TDs and no turnovers.

It WAS fun to Let Russ Cook those first 6 weeks, but defenses figured it out and we didn't make the appropriate adjustments, and that was were most of our frustration came from. But back to your point, I too agree both heavy pass or heavy run shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Mix and match, either or, depending on what is appropriate for your opponent that week.

If said of before and I’ll say it again, if Carroll wants to play that way every game, in which he does try, he’ll be successful against 8 teams on the schedule. That’s 500 football against non playoff caliber teams.

But to succeed against teams that are good and will go to playoffs, he hasn’t understood that his game plan are always well countered by the better team. Because they know what he will run and their team is just as talented and capable of playing adjustment football.

Carroll’s approach can win against half the teams in the league but he cannot get over the hump of the good teams because they know that’s all he’ll do.

If a team going against Seattle can stop/contain the run with the front 4, they’ll just drop the two safeties back and play the linebackers in the flats and Seattle will be virtually dead on offense. Pete does not like to throw in the middle cause he believes it’ll lead to interceptions so he doesn’t even try for crossing routes all that much so receivers stay in flats and flats are covered by the corners playing soft zones and Seattle cannot move the ball.

This is all Carroll knows and he wants to keep forcing his will on opponents and opponents know he does not make adjustments.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Very solid post. Each game is a totally different game plan, and should be. You can't just decide this is what we do, and that's that. No, you need to adjust to the opponent, EVERY game. Take what they give you, and take away what they do well.

 

[AROS]

Precisely. You either keep on keeping on (and expect to make the playoffs and get bounced early) or you finally adjust and employ intuitive game plans to match your opponent.

 

[kidhawk]

I can concur with this thread. We don't need a balanced attack, but we do need a two-pronged attack. Pete is right in saying that we need to be able to run the ball effectively and doing that will open the passing game and vice versa. The problem is we don't seem to adjust to the defenses in real time. We seem to go into a game with a plan and we beat that plan to death trying to make it succeed instead of looking in real time at what the defenses are doing and adjusting to take what they are giving us.

 

[AROS]

I can concur with this thread. We don't need a balanced attack, but we do need a two-pronged attack. Pete is right in saying that we need to be able to run the ball effectively and doing that will open the passing game and vice versa. The problem is we don't seem to adjust to the defenses in real time. We seem to go into a game with a plan and we beat that plan to death trying to make it succeed instead of looking in real time at what the defenses are doing and adjusting to take what they are giving us.

Well put David, that's exactly the issue.

 

[TraderGary]

Completely agree with every post in this thread. I've never understood why the Seahawks, and Pete in particular never adjust to what the other team is doing on either side of the ball. He has his style and his strategies, and he's basically saying, this is what we're going to do, now try and stop it.

As another poster said, it might work against the weaker teams, but against the better teams who actually know how, and are willing to adjust to what the other team is doing, Pete's strategies simply do not work. I just don't understand that mentality or philosophy.

For all Pete's excellent intangibles like leadership and motivation, and building a winning culture, he's one of the worst in the league at strategic game planning and game day coaching. And his micro-managing of his coordinators has got to stop, but I have my doubts it ever will.

 

[Fade]

It's not about running vs. Passing.

Pete's offense is about being extremely safe. So passing only deep, usually outside the numbers, and only where the receiver can get it, no short or mid. Run the ball. Snap the ball with 1 sec on the playclock to shorten the game, and keep his defense fresh. They will play this style for as long as they can, Pete isn't concerned with scoring points, he is concerned about the opponent scoring. Usually though, this style fails spectacularly, and they go 2min in the 4th. They spread the field more snap the ball quicker and Russ calls more of the plays here.

This thing would've been fixed years ago if the owner knew enough about football to realize this, and told Pete to butt out. Instead we get to watch insanity unfold nearly every week.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It's not choosing one or the other, it's having an identity, on both sides of the ball.

Have we had an identity the past 4-5 years? Schotty has been operating in this dysfuntional tug-of-war limbo IMO of trying to make both Pete and Russ happy, and not being very successful at either.........especially against good to great defenses.

So if I had to guess, that was Pete's main takeaway after assessing the season. He wants the offense's identity to be nasty pound the rock punch the defense in the mouth. What he had under Marshawn.

Is that good? Is that bad? Is that even a relevant offense to run? Or viable cap wise when you're paying your QB 35M?

I'd say no. But I'm answering the OP's question. It's about establishing an identity, not choosing one or the other.

 

[kf3339]

There is very good comments and analysis on this thread. It clearly shows the potential and limitations in the PC approach to offensive football. What I take from all this is that we are basically a .500 team with a few more wins from RW that gets us to somewhere between 9-7 to 11-5 on a yearly basis. Considering this last season we won our first 5 games, that should be considered the anomaly.

So we get to watch a team that is able to get to the dance, but then gets exposed by the real football programs in the playoffs. PA may well have seen this by now, and perhaps would have forced his will with PC. But then again, I never really felt he was that passionate about the game, so who knows.

I do know his sister is completely clueless, so nothing is going to change. We need a new owner. Period.

 

[thegameq]

It's not about running vs. Passing.

Pete's offense is about being extremely safe. So passing only deep, usually outside the numbers, and only where the receiver can get it, no short or mid. Run the ball. Snap the ball with 1 sec on the playclock to shorten the game, and keep his defense fresh. They will play this style for as long as they can, Pete isn't concerned with scoring points, he is concerned about the opponent scoring. Usually though, this style fails spectacularly, and they go 2min in the 4th. They spread the field more snap the ball quicker and Russ calls more of the plays here.

This thing would've been fixed years ago if the owner knew enough about football to realize this, and told Pete to butt out. Instead we get to watch insanity unfold nearly every week.

Basically, low risk football...or in other words, playing not too lose. Last I heard this was supposed to be a major sin in the NFL and is largely frowned upon.

Was this Pete's MO at USC?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Was this Pete's MO at USC?

No his MO at USC was that he was going to win because he had bigger, stronger and faster athletes than you did, which meant it didn't matter if you knew what he was doing, his offense and defenses were still going to win with superior athletes.

It's what he did here at first, and it worked because we did have superior athletes, especially on the defensive side of the ball.

Now we don't, and low and behold this philosophy no longer works as well. Or at all in the playoffs. NFL requires you to outwit and out scheme your opponent.............unfortunately not Pete's strong suit.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

There is very good comments and analysis on this thread. It clearly shows the potential and limitations in the PC approach to offensive football. What I take from all this is that we are basically a .500 team with a few more wins from RW that gets us to somewhere between 9-7 to 11-5 on a yearly basis. Considering this last season we won our first 5 games, that should be considered the anomaly.

So we get to watch a team that is able to get to the dance, but then gets exposed by the real football programs in the playoffs. PA may well have seen this by now, and perhaps would have forced his will with PC. But then again, I never really felt he was that passionate about the game, so who knows.

I do know his sister is completely clueless, so nothing is going to change. We need a new owner. Period.

You’re last sentence, I wholeheartedly agree with x1000!

Seattle will be average to slightly above average/good every year Carroll has Wilson.

9-6 to 11-5 is usually where I would put a Carroll team.

Just good enough to make playoffs but not nearly capable with the coaching strategy to advance in playoffs past the divisional round.

I definitely agree we need a new owner that lives/loves football and will understand what it takes to get Seattle back to the Super Bowl and that is dumping Carroll.

Because I agree, Jody Allen is content with Carroll as coach and has no clue what it takes to win a Super Bowl.

 

[hoxrox]

It's not about running vs. Passing.

Pete's offense is about being extremely safe. So passing only deep, usually outside the numbers, and only where the receiver can get it, no short or mid. Run the ball. Snap the ball with 1 sec on the playclock to shorten the game, and keep his defense fresh. They will play this style for as long as they can, Pete isn't concerned with scoring points, he is concerned about the opponent scoring. Usually though, this style fails spectacularly, and they go 2min in the 4th. They spread the field more snap the ball quicker and Russ calls more of the plays here.

This thing would've been fixed years ago if the owner knew enough about football to realize this, and told Pete to butt out. Instead we get to watch insanity unfold nearly every week.

Basically, low risk football...or in other words, playing not too lose. Last I heard this was supposed to be a major sin in the NFL and is largely frowned upon.

Was this Pete's MO at USC?

So is the opposite going aggressive and "playing to win?" Kind of like what the Steelers do. Go for it on 4th and 1 often, two point conversions, a lot of passing, etc.

That can result in a lot of points, but it can also result in 4 Big Ben picks, and then they got smacked in the mouth by the Browns.

Classic tortoise and the hare.

I dislike turtling, by the way, but that's what Pete thinks gives the team the best chance to win.

Subtract the two turnovers in that Rams game, and we still had a chance to beat them, despite being out schemed, out played, and out personnel'd.

 

[AgentDib]

There were many safe shorter passes (5-10yds) to be had this season provided we execute them with a least a bit of competence. Hitting those keeps the offense on the field and our defense resting on the bench, and it's bizarre to suggest Pete is against them for some reason. We haven't been good at them, but our defensive minded HC is pretty far down that particular blame chain.

The passes that Pete wants to avoid are the intermediate throws where the QB is trying to fit it into a tight window, the 50/50 long balls where the QB puts it up and hopes the WR can make a play on it, and most importantly the third and long passes.

 

[keasley45]

Great thread, but i dont know that any of this is about adjusting to a defense every week or being more run or more pass. I think its ALL about unlocking Russ. The dude is uniquely talented - HOF talented, and uniquely challenged. You cant just expect to bring in a top OC and make everything better if you can just get PC to stay away without figuring out how to create a scheme that's tailored very specifically to RW - and thats proven to be difficult. I think the team has been struggling to figure out its identity because they've been struggling to figure out who they have at QB and what he can and cant do. THAT'S whats driving the run game talk now. How to develop a scheme that doesnt assume that Russ, even with an adequate pocket, can just stand back there a'la Brees and Rodgers and throw darts around the field to every open and covered receiver within 63 yards of him, within 2.5 seconds of the ball being snapped. A scheme that masks what he cant do so that he can get on about the business of doing all of those spectacular things that he can. It has to be both and the run game has to be one devised not just to pound the rock, but spread the defense out with fast edge runs and beat the snot out of them will hits up the middle. A spread out defense that cant just stand up their line and LB's in Russ's face all game will open up the passing lanes and the short / middle of the field. A defense needs to be threatened and i wholeheartedly agree, given what i've seen that deploying not just a complimentary run game but a featured one will have Russ not just cooking in the kitchen, but owning the entire damn restaurant.