Why Isn't The Seahawks Template More Of A Story?

[ringless]

http://www.si.com/vault/2006/11/20/8394543/the-nfl

2006

I have no doubt that Pete Caroll has some of the most unique practices. But music is not unique to him. There is no doubt the ENERGY is different from other teams however based on interviews of players.

 

[truehawksfan]

ok. stand corrected. but any objections to the points about his philosophies mentioned besides music played at practices?

 

[Popeyejones]

ok. stand corrected. but any objections to the points about his philosophies mentioned besides music played at practices?

1. "Rah rah Pete" -- It's a style of coaching that's not even remotely unique to Carroll.

2. "Practice harder than game day" -- another hoary old sports cliche that isn't even particular to football, let alone Pete Carroll.

3. "Players allowed to be themselves" -- It's a "player's coach" cliche, which again, isn't even unique to football, let alone P.C.

4. Bigger corners. Agreed P.C. prefers bigger corners, and that the Hawks are known for preferring bigger corners. To the degree bigger corners are more in vogue though, I think that has much more to do with the rise of three receiver sets and slot receiver/slot corner becoming a specialized position, whereas now you see bigger corners AND receivers out on the edges more often.

 

[ringless]

There is no doubt that Pete's philosophy works. It's not just the music, it's how he makes it work. Pete seems to understand a lot more psychology than the average person. He understands people, motivation, and each person as individuals. He is truly brilliant. Seeing interviews of former Seahawk players tells a big story. It's not the music, or the practice, its more of an immeasurable with Pete on what he creates. It's more of something that's there that cant be seen. I believe that's the difference.

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^ Yeah, I absolutely agree with the statement that P.C. is a very, very good football coach.

Saying that sports cliches don't create a template for the rest of the league doesn't take away anything from his talent as a coach, IMO.

 

[Uncle Si]

ok. stand corrected. but any objections to the points about his philosophies mentioned besides music played at practices?

1. "Rah rah Pete" -- It's a style of coaching that's not even remotely unique to Carroll.

2. "Practice harder than game day" -- another hoary old sports cliche that isn't even particular to football, let alone Pete Carroll.

3. "Players allowed to be themselves" -- It's a "player's coach" cliche, which again, isn't even unique to football, let alone P.C.

4. Bigger corners. Agreed P.C. prefers bigger corners, and that the Hawks are known for preferring bigger corners. To the degree bigger corners are more in vogue though, I think that has much more to do with the rise of three receiver sets and slot receiver/slot corner becoming a specialized position, whereas now you see bigger corners AND receivers out on the edges more often.

These aren't "cliches" though are they.

Compare each of the first three from what we have heard about New England. While neither mentalities are unique to the two teams, they are very much specific philosophies and approaches to managing their respective teams.

Do we know of another coach in the last few years that approaches their team with all three of these mentalities? I'm not sure there is one (maybe Tomlin in Pittsburgh?)

So, while PC's overall approach may not be the first of its kind, it's not common in the league at the moment either.

 

[Popeyejones]

On this forum before I've said that there's a continuum of coaching styles that we can think of as extreme "player's coach/loving mother" on one end and extreme "disciplinarian/tough father" on the other end.

I think the examples of PC and BB were even used at each end of that continuum.

That continuum isn't unique to these coaches, unique to the NFL, or even unique to professional sports. This type of "player's coach" and "strong disciplinarian" stuff are somewhat descriptive, but they're also garden variety sports idioms that get thrown around across every team sport and ever level of competition.

TBF they hold a little more descriptive value than straight up meaningless cliches like "always compete," "next man up", "let the players play" but that they're some sort of innovation or template I don't really buy.

If it was some sort of innovation or template, then, because we both agree Tomlin and PC are of the "player's coach" variety, we'd have to conclude that because Tomlin's tenure with the Steelers predates PC's tenure with the Hawks that the Seahawks are imitating the Steelers coaching template in the NFL, and that the Steelers' template creating the success of the Seahawks should be more of a story.

As is probably clear, I think that's a really batty claim, and can just be dismissed out of hand. I'd guess that many Seahawks fans probably agree with me too, because unlike a magical "Seahawks player's coach template" a magical "Steelers player's coach template" is much less flattering to them.

 

[Uncle Si]

On this forum before I've said that there's a continuum of coaching styles that we can think of as extreme "player's coach/loving mother" on one end and extreme "disciplinarian/tough father" on the other end.

I think the examples of PC and BB were even used at each end of that continuum.

That continuum isn't unique to these coaches, unique to the NFL, or even unique to professional sports. This type of "player's coach" and "strong disciplinarian" stuff are somewhat descriptive, but they're also garden variety sports idioms that get thrown around across every team sport and ever level of competition.

TBF they hold a little more descriptive value than straight up meaningless cliches like "always compete," "next man up", "let the players play" but that they're some sort of innovation or template I don't really buy.

If it was some sort of innovation or template, then, because we both agree Tomlin and PC are of the "player's coach" variety, we'd have to conclude that because Tomlin's tenure with the Steelers predates PC's tenure with the Hawks that the Seahawks are imitating the Steelers coaching template in the NFL, and that the Steelers' template creating the success of the Seahawks should be more of a story.

As is probably clear, I think that's a really batty claim, and can just be dismissed out of hand. I'd guess that many Seahawks fans probably agree with me too, because unlike a magical "Seahawks player's coach template" a magical "Steelers player's coach template" is much less flattering to them.

But you're moving the goalposts here. Now they are non-specific idioms instead of specific "cliches" that you indicated in your previous thread, and apparently borne from Tomlin simply because he's been in the NFL longer? (which isn't true, if you look at the careers of the two coaches). Maybe this is a magical "Pete Carroll coach template" that Aros had intimated in the OP. One could conclude by that logic that perhaps Tomlin was so enamored with Pete's previous tenure in the NFL and USC that he is borrowing it?

Tomlin's coaching style: This process takes time, especially given Tomlin's style. Tomlin identifies himself as a "servant leader" in the manner of his mentor, Tony Dungy. The essence of this style of leadership is to encourage and support the development of each person under one's authority. (not exactly the foundation of Carroll's, is it?)


"Rah rah Pete": is a very specific characteristic and approach. Not unique, but this is not a cliche. Coaches are extremely diverse in how they present themselves to their players and staff.

"Practice harder than game day": also a very specific approach, as many coaches use training sessions far differently and far less physically.

"Players allowed to be themselves" : again, this is not an "idiom" but a direct approach to managing players that may not be unique to Pete Carroll is still very rare in the NFL.


There seems to be a hang up here to discount the OP simply because "it's not original", which never struck me as the point of it to begin with. BB's philosophy isn't new either (Lombardi?). Nothing really is. But they are rather unique to this iteration of the NFL.

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^ You first evoked Tomlin, not me.

As explained in my post, I called them "idioms" rather than cliches because at least "player's coach" and "disciplinarian" are descriptive of something tangible, unlike a cliche like "always compete" which doesn't actually have a corollary group of "don't always compete" advocates.

As I read the point of the OP there is some specific Seahawks template to the cliches "always compete", "it's about the team, not individual stats" and so on, and that the Seahawks deserve more credit for other teams now following their template.

From there some people have tried to specifically deduce what this template is, while others (myself included) have noted that there's nothing specifically reproducible or template-y about the things getting cited, which doesn't take away from the fact that PC is a very good coach.

More generally, across this thread and ADP discussion in the other thread I kinda feel a bit like you're arguing with me just to argue with me, so I'd rather just agree to disagree, and bow out here. :2thumbs:

 

[Uncle Si]

^^^ You first evoked Tomlin, not me.

As I read the point of the OP there is some specific Seahawks template to the cliches "always compete", "it's about the team, not individual stats" and so on, and that the Seahawks deserve more credit for other teams now following their template.

From there some people have tried to specifically deduce what this template is, while others (myself included) have noted that there's nothing specifically reproducible or template-y about the things getting cited, which doesn't take away from the fact that PC is a very good coach.

More generally, across this thread and ADP discussion in the other thread I kinda feel a bit like you're arguing with me just to argue with me, so I'd rather just agree to disagree, and bow out here. :2thumbs:

Simply trying to evolve the conversation(s). But if you find disagreement "arguing" then so be it. Doesn't leave much to discuss if one can't differ on opinions.

I saw the direction of the thread based less on an original template to PC and one more related to him that is not widespread to the NFL at this moment.

 

[chris98251]

Pete develops a mental strength, compete, go hard, take on challenges, he also has the background support in Psychiatrists, counselors, finance guys, people to help with charities the players want to do, this enables the players to deal with issues that distract them from the teams goals, that isn't anywhere else in the league, he has a whole support team to support the players so they can be the best players on the football team.

 

[Seymour]

Pete develops a mental strength, compete, go hard, take on challenges, he also has the background support in Psychiatrists, counselors, finance guys, people to help with charities the players want to do, this enables the players to deal with issues that distract them from the teams goals, that isn't anywhere else in the league, he has a whole support team to support the players so they can be the best players on the football team.

Were all these tools sent in for calibration when we traded for Percy?

 

[chris98251]

Think about it, we kept him a long time trying to work things out, sometimes you can't fix things that don't think they are broken.

 

[Seymour]

Think about it, we kept him a long time trying to work things out, sometimes you can't fix things that don't think they are broken.

A long time?
Not compared to how long we've kept Bevell under similar psychiatric conditions. :twisted:

 

[scutterhawk]

http://www.denverpost.com/2009/08/18/marshall-works-with-second-team/

This article in 2009 references practicing with loud music.....

Two entirely different reasons, and Denver wasn't the first team to pump up the volume in preparation for playing at the King Dome or Qwest Field/C-Link.
AND, call it whatever you please, it IS a "TEMPLATE" ......Each and EVERY Head Coach has a "TEMPLATE" that they follow, some have more twists & turns that others...It's a pattern of belief, a format that they think will bring them success, or................A "TEMPLATE".