Will Bevell effectively incorporate Graham

[Siouxhawk]

Whatever Siouxhawk, you have been a consistent defender of Bevell and I expected your contribution. Sadly so far he hasn't demonstrated the ability to incorporate Graham into the O despite many promises seems to frequently underwhelm with some of his calls in terms of his use of Marshawn so the answer isn't as easy as you state.

Question to you is this criticism at all justified, or should he share the blame, or should we look to difficulties with pass protection, or some limitation RW has in seeing multiple reads.

Thanks for the opportunity to answer this jammerhawk,

First of all, I'm not one who takes on the witch hunt of assigning blame. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Fortunately we've won at a clip of about 70 percent of the time over the last 2 years. I don't see that changing this year. Those first two defense we played were pretty salty, especially in their road environment.

As far as Graham, I just people wish would relax instead of being infected like a bunch of rabid Walking Dead zombies trying to quench their bloodthirst by assigning blame. It's been 2 games! And those two road games could very well be the most difficult on our schedule. We're breaking in new personnel on the line, our defense is giving up way too many points and explosive plays (but Kam's return, I believe, will tone those thorns down). Panicking wouldn't be prudent.

As far as Bevell, of couse he's still growing, but I defend him because I just see how ridiculous all the attacks on him are. I'm not as eloquent as the DavidSevens and Sgt. Largents out there, but I totally agree with the points they make about the multiple layers our offense presents (ie., Pete's demand to win the turnover battle, meaning ball-control on offense; Russell's improv skills, Marshawn's brute-force running, using field position and a fourth-quarter uprising to seal most wins) and how Bevell has done a good job of blending all of that together.

Jimmy likely won't put up the kind of numbers he had in New Orleans. Our fans need to get used to that and quit thinking this team is run like their fantasy football squads. Jimmy still will play a vital role, though, especially in the red zone. Russell spent a good chunk of the offseason with him, but he's still adjusting as the bullets are flying. I'm all in!

The spreading the ball around philosophy has to be adjusted when you have a star and instant matchup problem like Graham.

What is the point of getting Graham if our TEs only combine for 200-300 extra yards compared to last years group?

Forget about spreading the ball around evenly, use our weapon since we FINALLY HAVE ONE.

We can add 200-300 yards to our TE group for much less than a 1st round pick and the large salary we're paying him.

You still don't force-fed a guy when he's double or triple covered. You just don't. If that's the case, someone else is going to have single or possibly even be missed in coverage, and that's who you target. That being said, there are situations where Jimmy will be isolated 1-on-1 and I think that's when you'll see Russ hook up with him.

 

[Willyeye]

The title of this thread should not be "Will Bevell effectively incorporate Graham?" It should be "CAN Bevell effectively incorporate Graham?" And the answer to my title is, "I don't think so".

 

[Sports Hernia]

I hope he can.

 

[Ambrose83]

Whatever Siouxhawk, you have been a consistent defender of Bevell and I expected your contribution. Sadly so far he hasn't demonstrated the ability to incorporate Graham into the O despite many promises seems to frequently underwhelm with some of his calls in terms of his use of Marshawn so the answer isn't as easy as you state.

Question to you is this criticism at all justified, or should he share the blame, or should we look to difficulties with pass protection, or some limitation RW has in seeing multiple reads.

Thanks for the opportunity to answer this jammerhawk,

First of all, I'm not one who takes on the witch hunt of assigning blame. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Fortunately we've won at a clip of about 70 percent of the time over the last 2 years. I don't see that changing this year. Those first two defense we played were pretty salty, especially in their road environment.

As far as Graham, I just people wish would relax instead of being infected like a bunch of rabid Walking Dead zombies trying to quench their bloodthirst by assigning blame. It's been 2 games! And those two road games could very well be the most difficult on our schedule. We're breaking in new personnel on the line, our defense is giving up way too many points and explosive plays (but Kam's return, I believe, will tone those thorns down). Panicking wouldn't be prudent.

As far as Bevell, of couse he's still growing, but I defend him because I just see how ridiculous all the attacks on him are. I'm not as eloquent as the DavidSevens and Sgt. Largents out there, but I totally agree with the points they make about the multiple layers our offense presents (ie., Pete's demand to win the turnover battle, meaning ball-control on offense; Russell's improv skills, Marshawn's brute-force running, using field position and a fourth-quarter uprising to seal most wins) and how Bevell has done a good job of blending all of that together.

Jimmy likely won't put up the kind of numbers he had in New Orleans. Our fans need to get used to that and quit thinking this team is run like their fantasy football squads. Jimmy still will play a vital role, though, especially in the red zone. Russell spent a good chunk of the offseason with him, but he's still adjusting as the bullets are flying. I'm all in!

The spreading the ball around philosophy has to be adjusted when you have a star and instant matchup problem like Graham.

What is the point of getting Graham if our TEs only combine for 200-300 extra yards compared to last years group?

Forget about spreading the ball around evenly, use our weapon since we FINALLY HAVE ONE.

We can add 200-300 yards to our TE group for much less than a 1st round pick and the large salary we're paying him.

You still don't force-fed a guy when he's double or triple covered. You just don't. If that's the case, someone else is going to have single or possibly even be missed in coverage, and that's who you target. That being said, there are situations where Jimmy will be isolated 1-on-1 and I think that's when you'll see Russ hook up with him.

I assume you did not see much of graham. . That is exactly what the saints did with him all the time

 

[BirdsCommaAngry]

This is suspenseful with Graham. Will he antagonize his way off the team like Harvin? Will the offense (the whole offense) get on the same page and establish him as someone our offense grinds opponents into submission with like Lynch in 2011?We've seen both extremes play out and how dissapointing or scary good the outcomes can be. This is the part before we find out what happens next. It's exciting!

 

[Spin Doctor]

Whatever Siouxhawk, you have been a consistent defender of Bevell and I expected your contribution. Sadly so far he hasn't demonstrated the ability to incorporate Graham into the O despite many promises seems to frequently underwhelm with some of his calls in terms of his use of Marshawn so the answer isn't as easy as you state.

Question to you is this criticism at all justified, or should he share the blame, or should we look to difficulties with pass protection, or some limitation RW has in seeing multiple reads.

Thanks for the opportunity to answer this jammerhawk,

First of all, I'm not one who takes on the witch hunt of assigning blame. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Fortunately we've won at a clip of about 70 percent of the time over the last 2 years. I don't see that changing this year. Those first two defense we played were pretty salty, especially in their road environment.

As far as Graham, I just people wish would relax instead of being infected like a bunch of rabid Walking Dead zombies trying to quench their bloodthirst by assigning blame. It's been 2 games! And those two road games could very well be the most difficult on our schedule. We're breaking in new personnel on the line, our defense is giving up way too many points and explosive plays (but Kam's return, I believe, will tone those thorns down). Panicking wouldn't be prudent.

As far as Bevell, of couse he's still growing, but I defend him because I just see how ridiculous all the attacks on him are. I'm not as eloquent as the DavidSevens and Sgt. Largents out there, but I totally agree with the points they make about the multiple layers our offense presents (ie., Pete's demand to win the turnover battle, meaning ball-control on offense; Russell's improv skills, Marshawn's brute-force running, using field position and a fourth-quarter uprising to seal most wins) and how Bevell has done a good job of blending all of that together.

Jimmy likely won't put up the kind of numbers he had in New Orleans. Our fans need to get used to that and quit thinking this team is run like their fantasy football squads. Jimmy still will play a vital role, though, especially in the red zone. Russell spent a good chunk of the offseason with him, but he's still adjusting as the bullets are flying. I'm all in!

The spreading the ball around philosophy has to be adjusted when you have a star and instant matchup problem like Graham.

What is the point of getting Graham if our TEs only combine for 200-300 extra yards compared to last years group?

Forget about spreading the ball around evenly, use our weapon since we FINALLY HAVE ONE.

We can add 200-300 yards to our TE group for much less than a 1st round pick and the large salary we're paying him.

You still don't force-fed a guy when he's double or triple covered. You just don't. If that's the case, someone else is going to have single or possibly even be missed in coverage, and that's who you target. That being said, there are situations where Jimmy will be isolated 1-on-1 and I think that's when you'll see Russ hook up with him.

I don't think anyone here is advocating throwing to Graham while he is in triple coverage. What myself, as well as others are discontent about is the way he is being utilized. Graham himself said "he expects to be blocking 75 percent of the time" sometime around August. This season he has spent over 44% of the time inline blocking (right around the number Miller did), and he has hardly been asked to be split out wide, where he spent most of his time on the Saints.

The question I pose to you, is why even bother squiring Graham if we are going to use him in this fashion? Blocking is not the guys strength, his strength is pass catching. We wanted a play-maker, we got him and we're not using him. Using him how he was used on the Saints would not run counter intuitive to Carroll's philosophy. In fact, he was used similarly to how Mike Williams was here. On slant routes, even if he didn't have good separation he was money at boxing out defenders. On the seam routes he would almost always find a way to get open, and of course he was money on the fades. I do not see Graham being utilized like that here in Seattle. Instead he's being asked to block, and stay in-line, it looks very similar to what we did to Miller, only Miller was much stronger as a blocker both in the running game and passing game. I realize that Wilson is part of the problem here, but Bevell also deserves a big part of the blame. He doesn't have to scheme the whole passing offense around appeasing Graham like he did with Harvin, however Bevell needs to integrate some of what the Saints did here in Seattle.

On a side note, on those 5 wide receiver empty sets why is Graham never out there? He is easily the most potent weapon in our passing game, and the most seasoned pass catcher on our team.... Why is he not there in these situations?

Look, I understand that you think a lot of the criticism Bevell is receiving, is unwarranted, but on this particular issue I challenge you-- go watch some clips of the guy when he played for the Saints. The Graham is being utilized on the Seahawks is completely different, and is denying him of his greatest strengths.

 

[jammerhawk]

Question to you is this criticism at all justified, or should he share the blame, or should we look to difficulties with pass protection, or some limitation RW has in seeing multiple reads.

Thanks for the opportunity to answer this jammerhawk,

First of all, I'm not one who takes on the witch hunt of assigning blame. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Fortunately we've won at a clip of about 70 percent of the time over the last 2 years. I don't see that changing this year. Those first two defense we played were pretty salty, especially in their road environment.

As far as Graham, I just people wish would relax instead of being infected like a bunch of rabid Walking Dead zombies trying to quench their bloodthirst by assigning blame. It's been 2 games! And those two road games could very well be the most difficult on our schedule. We're breaking in new personnel on the line, our defense is giving up way too many points and explosive plays (but Kam's return, I believe, will tone those thorns down). Panicking wouldn't be prudent.

As far as Bevell, of couse he's still growing, but I defend him because I just see how ridiculous all the attacks on him are. I'm not as eloquent as the DavidSevens and Sgt. Largents out there, but I totally agree with the points they make about the multiple layers our offense presents (ie., Pete's demand to win the turnover battle, meaning ball-control on offense; Russell's improv skills, Marshawn's brute-force running, using field position and a fourth-quarter uprising to seal most wins) and how Bevell has done a good job of blending all of that together.

Jimmy likely won't put up the kind of numbers he had in New Orleans. Our fans need to get used to that and quit thinking this team is run like their fantasy football squads. Jimmy still will play a vital role, though, especially in the red zone. Russell spent a good chunk of the offseason with him, but he's still adjusting as the bullets are flying. I'm all in!

Your answer is a good one, understated, but incomplete. I didn't see a clear response to my above questions, should some of the blame be on Bevell, is pass pro a huge problem, or is it in part on RW? I get you don't think the criticism of our OC is fair b/c he's been part of a wining scheme since his arrival here, and that the many detractors here are overstated and occasionally irrational in their blood thirsty attacks on the OC.

I would think any coach worth their salt would want to win the turnover battle, and to control the ball. Bevell is fortunate to have Wilson who is as good as the best with his improv skills, and one tough mofo in Lynch who is a very strong inside runner who can gash on the outside too. He maybe is the best in the league. But the picture is incomplete Bevell needs to incorporate more layers into the scheme b/c he now has a uber talented pass catching TE and a flat out mismatch in Graham. Miller was a solid TE too, and showed great hands when he touched the ball. Unfortunately he was mostly only used as a blocker who lacked the skillset of Graham. It is very arguable that he was poorly used by Bevell as Miller's pass catching numbers went off a cliff in this O. Is that on Bevell, arguably so, but maybe Coach Cable needs to carry some of that knock. Last weekend our OC intentionally targeted a notorious butterfingered TE over one of the best pass catching TEs in the league, why?

When Seattle plays the adjustments come slow to counter a D that stuffs the running game. The loading the box isn't punished with quick hitting passing plays that would force the D to back off. It certainly isn't as if Bevell hasn't got weapons to do this, but the plays aren't there or called. Who is the coach responsible, is this on Pete, Cable? Last season at times there was an occasional use of Richardson in this way as that appears to be his strength, maybe he will add that back when he returns. So far, to me at any rate, Graham has not been well used to any of his strengths and 1/8 of the regular season is over. To my eyes it is clearly apparent so far Bevell has no special plays for Graham or hasn't figured out how to use him and that is an indictment for an NFL OC. Graham's talent is so far wasted here. Holmgren,who it can be argued was a wizard in making an O work, would drool over the talent the team has available on O. To me Graham's strengths are being ignored, his height and speed. So far the use of Lockett, even if just as a decoy, is disappointing too. His speed should be another creative tool to create mismatch. Most any successful passing play in Bevell's O seems to be very slow developing which is unfair to the OLine as they are not that good, but getting incrementall better. Last weekend the O only came alive after the RO started to be used and the passing game was put on hold. Bevell was then effectively removed from making the decisions. Once control was reasserted creative dullness returned.

I will say again I think Bevell is blockhead, but in my mind the blame for the poor use of Graham should be shared. I will be surprised to see Graham well used in the Hawks O until a lot later in the season b/c Bevell as yet doesn't have a clue how to use Graham's talents.

 

[Scottemojo]

Look at Miller's numbers in Oakland vs Seattle.

The man was a first down machine his last 3 years in Oakland, he had 36 catches over 20 yards in Oakland, and two of those 3 years he had Jamarcus Russell at QB.

He came to Seattle and blocked. And Blocked. And blocked some more. When he did get a pass it was often a rollout with Russ on a bootleg type play, no YAC. He had 14 plays over 20 yards in 4 years in Seattle.

Zach was a team guy, never complained, but if he got it to do over again, I bet he would have signed elsewhere.

Zach is why I won't hang any of this on Cable, he had Cable in Oakland and was used very much as a pass catcher. .

Point is, the tight end not getting much focus in the pass game is a Pete issue.

So, if they do get inventive in getting Graham the ball, they will have to change some pretty deep seated tendencies.

Edit. I had some info off a year.

 

[sutz]

I think I will withhold judgement on this until after at least the first quarter of the season. I believe Bevell has used TEs in the past, right? Plus, I'm not so sure much of this doesn't hang on Russell. He needs to get used to having Graham on the field and throwing to him. I don't think you get that in a single pre-season.

We've just played two of the better defenses in the league. I want to see this play out against a range of Ds and check some stats after that.

I don't think it is that easy to just toss a career of being very careful with the ball and start flinging it into double and triple coverage, and I'm not sure I want Wilson to do that. I'll give it a little more time, a couple more games, at least.

 

[jammerhawk]

I don't think anyone is advocating regularly throwing into double and triple coverage here at all. I'm just talking using the weapons the team has here. Graham is an easy mismatch one on one and at times a physical mismatch in any coverage. At 6'7" and 260 he's a vertical mismatch on most any play with his long arms.

I agree with Scottie about the demonstrated inability to involve the TE, so far all this chatter about two TE formations is just that.

Anyone seen much of Matthews yet either? I just don't believe Bevell knows how.

 

[jammerhawk]

Lest my posts be interpreted as moving away from the run first mentality that has proved so effective for the team let me say I'm not saying that at all. If the team were to use a short passing O to back off eight in the box Ds. Lynch's effectiveness would be improved along with creating an O that is less obvious and harder to defend.

There are a lot of potential home run hitters on the O and they need to be better used.

 

[Scottemojo]

Lest my posts be interpreted as moving away from the run first mentality that has proved so effective for the team let me say I'm not saying that at all. If the team were to use a short passing O to back off eight in the box Ds. Lynch's effectiveness would be improved along with creating an O that is less obvious and harder to defend.

There are a lot of potential home run hitters on the O and they need to be better used.

Pete has long had a similar philosophy on both offense and defense. He runs the cover 3 because it potentially frees a safety to move down and get numbers on the offense if they run. He likes the tight end to be in position on the end of the line for that extra number on offense. IT is all about getting that extra guy where you can have a statistical advantage.

This year they made a departure from that. Not formationally, they just don't have a good blocking TE.

 

[Siouxhawk]

Actually, you kind of are advocating insisting on throwing toward Jimmy in multiple coverage. The Packers payed particular attention to him, freeing up Willson, who had a good game, and you still aren't satisfied. As I said earlier, the passing game as a whole wasn't a problem, except for that pick in the fourth. Baldwin and Willson were the beneficiaries in this one. Once we get our run blocking down so that Marshawn can get to the second level, we will be lethal again.

And it's apples and oranges to compare Zach Miller to his days in Oakland to his days here. In Oakland, they were usually trailing in a game, so they were passing more frequently in an effort to catch up, hence he had more targets. Also, his blocking skills made him a good crutch to help out our tackle on the right side, so he was utilized a lot in that role.

Graham discredited reports that he was unhappy in his role to date, saying Saturday that he's just frustrated with the two losses. He's being utilized on the field and will play a big role in our offense.

 

[Sports Hernia]

Actually, you kind of are advocating insisting on throwing toward Jimmy in multiple coverage. The Packers payed particular attention to him, freeing up Willson, who had a good game, and you still aren't satisfied. As I said earlier, the passing game as a whole wasn't a problem, except for that pick in the fourth. Baldwin and Willson were the beneficiaries in this one. Once we get our run blocking down so that Marshawn can get to the second level, we will be lethal again.

And it's apples and oranges to compare Zach Miller to his days in Oakland to his days here. In Oakland, they were usually trailing in a game, so they were passing more frequently in an effort to catch up, hence he had more targets. Also, his blocking skills made him a good crutch to help out our tackle on the right side, so he was utilized a lot in that role.

Graham discredited reports that he was unhappy in his role to date, saying Saturday that he's just frustrated with the two losses. He's being utilized on the field and will play a big role in our offense.

Yep, a reporter was pulling something out of his hind quarters and making crap up. The sad state of journalism has reached sports journalism as well. Make things up or say something controversial to get hits. Very little integrity left in that business these days.

 

[Siouxhawk]

Actually, you kind of are advocating insisting on throwing toward Jimmy in multiple coverage. The Packers payed particular attention to him, freeing up Willson, who had a good game, and you still aren't satisfied. As I said earlier, the passing game as a whole wasn't a problem, except for that pick in the fourth. Baldwin and Willson were the beneficiaries in this one. Once we get our run blocking down so that Marshawn can get to the second level, we will be lethal again.

And it's apples and oranges to compare Zach Miller to his days in Oakland to his days here. In Oakland, they were usually trailing in a game, so they were passing more frequently in an effort to catch up, hence he had more targets. Also, his blocking skills made him a good crutch to help out our tackle on the right side, so he was utilized a lot in that role.

Graham discredited reports that he was unhappy in his role to date, saying Saturday that he's just frustrated with the two losses. He's being utilized on the field and will play a big role in our offense.

Yep, a reporter was pulling something out of his hind quarters and making crap up. The sad state of journalism has reached sports journalism as well. Make things up or say something controversial to get hits. Very little integrity left in that business these days.

I fear the age of yellow journalism and muckraking is back with the advent of social media and the drive to always be first, first, first with the story. I cringe every time I hear "as reported first by ... " Who gives a shit. Do your job and leave it at that. It's made our world a worse place, I believe.

 

[MysterMatt]

Here's the thing: Pete has consistently said throughput his tenure here that they look for special players and then let them do what they are best at. We know that Jimmy is best at many things, but I believe we will get there. Patience.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

A better question might be will Bevell do something, anything to get the offense going in the first half and score freakin' TDs in the red zone?
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Oh wait, using an ALL-PRO tight end might well help accomplish those things. Yo Darrell, give it a try. You might be surprised at how it works out.

 

[brimsalabim]

Well he did it once and it worked. The question now is how long it will be until he uses Jimmy like that again? I'm still waiting for him to use that read option pass play that we ran in the first game last season again.

 

[hawk45]

I'm encouraged a lot by Wilson and Graham hooking up on that improv play, and by throwing to Graham in the red zone, which was a good call that a DB just made a helluva play on.

If Russ can get comfortable with Graham, and Graham get on the same page when things go sandlot, I see a lot of DCs tearing their hair out later on this season.

 

[Scottemojo]

other thn having Graham pass block, today was a good start for Bevell.

I especially loved the two fades, one to Graham, one to Mathews. They didn't work, but they were both the right call.