Wilson and the Oline

[Spin Doctor]

Lol what are you guys even arguing about?

I'm not arguing, I just know SP is a 49er fan. He said so 2-3 years ago. Just having fun with the trolls and possibly a bit of cleaning if I'm lucky.

I'm not a 49er fan, nor have I ever said I was. You're just making up stuff at this point. I find it ironic that you're "having fun with trolls" when you're the one doing the trolling.

You are and you know it. Shit, I am the troll? Seriously? This is just getting more fun sirrah.

Why do you feel the need to personally attack me?

I'm not a troll, nor am I a 49er fan. Just a frustrated fan airing his grievances on a forum that is meant for public discussion. Seeing all of the talent we have being pissed away due to nepotism, and glaring coaching inadequacies on the offensive side is more frustrating than watching the hapless Jim Mora era Seahawks for me. I think of what we could be rather than what we are at the moment. We are far too talented to be mired in such stifling mediocrity.

 

[KitsapGuy]

Let the Mods decide who's a troll and who's not. Calling someone out in the forums is not allowed.

If you have concerns, then PM a Mod.

Enough of the sidetracking threads of people calling other people out, Or people who think they have to try to out prove one another to make a point. There's several people here doing it and it's going to end. If you can't agree to disagree, then move on.

This is a Seahawks forum for talking football. It should be easy to follow the rules and stay on topic.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

In before Anthony.

Damn, that's funny. BH isn't totally off, the offense is though. It really is all about the OL.

That isn't what BH said. He said Wilson is just more comfortable scrambling. Problem is, it divides the field in half and, yes, makes him harder to block for.

None of this means he's a bad quarterback or can't win a Super Bowl. It just means this is who he is. He could possibly stand a bit more creativity in the passing design, and a hot route every once in a while, but then we get into his greediness and whether he'd take the hot route if it were there.

 

[WestcoastSteve]

In before Anthony.

Damn, that's funny. BH isn't totally off, the offense is though. It really is all about the OL.

That isn't what BH said. He said Wilson is just more comfortable scrambling. Problem is, it divides the field in half and, yes, makes him harder to block for.

None of this means he's a bad quarterback or can't win a Super Bowl. It just means this is who he is. He could possibly stand a bit more creativity in the passing design, and a hot route every once in a while, but then we get into his greediness and whether he'd take the hot route if it were there.

Very level headed and spot on post. Essentially -- Wilson is who he is. If people think he's just going to sit in the pocket and be Brady that will never be his game.

Yes he was bad in the first half but in the second half -- anyone could see the receivers were not getting open and Washington was getting push up the middle since they couldn't race around our LT as teams normally do.

How many times was it 3rd and 10, and he ran for 11 yards just to keep a drive alive. That scrambling is a blessing and a curse - you have to take the good with the bad.

 

[bigskydoc]

Wilson is who he is. If people think he's just going to sit in the pocket and be Brady that will never be his game..[/b]

I don't know. He did a pretty good impression in the second half of 2015.

 

[Scorpion05]

Fans want Russ to do what he does best, get out and scramble, but then when he does and it doesn't work, it's inevitably, he should have stayed in the pocket. Never played QB but I can only imagine, he has a moment to decide weather or not which is best for him, if he deems scrambling is best, he needs to get out before the pocket caves in, right? That may explain why he seems to get out early. I think really, scrambling is his goto mama play and it's what he's comfortable doing. I gotta think also, if he's in the pocket, very tall players are on him and it maybe, just maybe difficult for him to throw over some of those guys.. or even see downfield. It's our lot, and it's what we have to live with. Of course, I"m just speculating and probably all wrong about it.

What you are talking about is what people talk about when they say pocket presence. Most NFL caliber QB's have to develop a sixth sense. They constantly have a clock ticking in their head, and a feel for when things are going to go awry. Some Quarterbacks are better than others at this skill. For example, Brady, and Manning are hardly ever sacked, because they know when to hold em' and when to fold em. They know when players are about to close in on them. If they didn't have this skill they would be mediocre due to their lack of mobility. Pocket presence also takes into account how players manipulate the pocket. Brees would be a good example of pocket manipulation. He moves around in the pocket but they are small movements. He baits the defense, and sets up his blockers with his movements from within the pocket. By doing this it makes his line look better than they truly are, and it opens up throwing lanes.

You talk about some of his inaccurate passes, they happen due to his lack of pocket presence. Even with no pressure he looks skittish in the pocket, and has happy feet. The happy feet aspect is important because it causes Wilson to throw with poor mechanics. When he is throwing on the run, or throwing while his feet are hopping around it causes him to throw from his back foot, and I notice when he gets in these modes he has no follow through. He also isn't able to drive the ball with his body weight. That is why in this game you had people questioning Wilson's arm strength. He clearly has a good arm, it is just that he is throwing from a less than ideal position most of the time. Some of that is clearly on the line, but a good portion of it is also due to Wilson's skittish nature in the pocket.

Wilson have never had to develop these skills, or rather I get the impression from our play calling that they have never been emphasized by our coaching staff. We call a bunch of deep routes, and expect Wilson to buy time for us until one of our guys come open. Unfortunately, until the Seahawks stop approaching the game with this mentality, this aspect of his game will not change, and conversely our line will also look much worse than it really is.

When I saw Carroll complaining about Wilson not sticking to the pocket I had to laugh. You complain about this now? You've been running an offense that encourages this type of play, with no real checkdown options, and you have the gull to complain about the way Wilson is approaching the game? Your backwards offensive philosophy, and your coordinator is why we haven't seen any improvement in this area for Wilson. Maybe if you stopped viewing the offense as a supplementary piece for your vaunted defense we wouldn't be where we are now.

Can you support this with facts? Particularly as it relates to Peyton and Brady? You say they're hardly ever sacked, and that their O-line has never been a problem because of their "pocket presence," which is false.

In 2015, Brady was sacked 40 times. In that same year, Russell Wilson was sacked 45 times. So far this year, Brady has been sacked 21 times and Wilson 18

It's getting really sickening to see people come here and put out alternate facts because of their preconceived notions or biases. Russell does NOT hold on to the ball much more than the top tier guys, and his pocket awareness isn't any worse. In fact, behind a much worse O-line one can argue his pocket awareness and elusiveness is ELITE. If he was a statue like Brady, he would have WAY more sacks behind this O-line.

I can also find you many sources and evidence of journalist and media giving Peyton and Brady a PASS when their O-line fails to protect them. There's this bleacher report article which highlights how poorly Brady plays when under pressure:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2647 ... ts-dynasty

Notice I'm not simply going based off opinion or confirmation bias, but providing actual evidence to refute your inaccurate evaluation of Russell's game

Also, to borrow from this article itself:


https://streamable.com/78psf

Ifedi gets beat from jump. It's a Hail Mary play, Wilson NEEDS room to be able to step up and chuck it from the 50 yard line. He can't do that if he doesn't step back and then step up. It's pathetic that Ifedi got beat there, and I'm willing to bet Aaron Rodgers/Brady line men don't get beat in a similar scenario. Don't believe me? Here's a video of Brady stepping back JUST as much as WIlson

[youtube]mtAB9OSrIdI[/youtube]

Here's Aaron Rodgers going even deeper than Wilson but guess what? His line STILL protects him

[youtube]NiaBRtImvYU[/youtube]


The article also makes other ridiculous claims. On Wilson's first drop back of the game, Wilson stays in the pocket, then rolls to his left and takes the quick checkdown

On this one the pocket is clearly collapsing around him. Another second and he's sacked:


https://streamable.com/tqp43


The only point the article makes is this play. Wilson rolls to his left and bails the pocket too early. If he simply hangs tough for another 2 seconds, he’d have an open Baldwin breaking down free at the last second. If he drops it in the bucket, Touchdown

https://streamable.com/ivwmn

This is another example of confirmation bias, generalizations, and nitpicking overriding facts and reality. This is not logical analysis. If we're going to criticize Wilson journalists and those like yourself need to do much better than that

 

[Seymour]

Great post Scorpion. Thank you for the links and the detailed debunking effort. :2thumbs:

 

[ivotuk]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/11/nfl-seahawks-offensive-line-one-man-rush-redskins-russell-wilson/amp

I think this is a pretty good assessment of how Wilson is making the not so good oline seem even worst. Especially this last game. Iv never seen a qb so impatient in the pocket! He was not under more duress than cousins! But the only difference was that cousins stayed, took the hits, but delivered as well.

Like I said to a couple guys here before the game, that it doesn't matter if you bring in 5 all pro lineman because it's not possible to block effectively for a qb that will not stay in a pocket even if there is a nice big one. It's impossible to shift your moment and body to block in a total different direction when the qb is running side to side.

Russel was a smart scrambler and had to twist, turn, and run when he defintely had to. Now it just seems he already has made up his mind to run side ways before the snap. No matter what some people say, this guys is playing a major role in this ineffiecent and total dysfunctional offense!

This is what Ray Roberts said as well!

BOB, GROZ AND TOM --- November 7, 2017 - Hour 1

With the short week for the Seahawks, it's a Tuesday edition of The Huddle with Bob, Groz, Tom, and Dave Wyman. In the first hour the guys recap the Seahawks eye-opening loss to Washington as well as hear from John Boyle of Seahawks.com on the latest news and notes.

Ray Roberts of the Seahawks Radio Network joins the guys too to give his observations of where the team stands after the season's first half.

http://sports.mynorthwest.com/category/ ... oz+and+Tom

 

[ivotuk]

Great post Scorpion. Thank you for the links and the detailed debunking effort. :2thumbs:

That was a great post. Thank you for the information.

I think some people have a pre-conceived notion based on what TV personalities say. But those TV people are lazy (except for Willie McGinest and Michael Robinson), and they like to go with the easy, popular story line. \

For example: "Russell Wilson can't throw from the pocket." To which McGinest replied "News flash! Russell Wilson is great from the pocket!"

 

[timmat]

Has Wilson developed "happy feet"? To some extent, it's sure looks like it this year. But can you really blame the guy? He's spent his entire career with a sub-par line (let's not forget all the O line complaining even during the Super Bowl years). He's made a name for himself stepping into passing lanes created by pass rushers that beat an O lineman and over pursue. He steps into that space, and then looks to throw. It seems to be the formula on almost all of his successful passes.

My season tix are in the second level of the south endzone, pretty much center cut. We get a great backside view of the pocket spread - one that I can't see as well from the TV side angle. During the 'skins game, I couldn't believe how often the right side of the pocket was collapsed in. Even on the dropbacks where the pocket seemed to hold, that side was caving in on him. He was releasing out to the right side because with the rusher dominating so much, it was creating big areas of space to the right. That's tough on receiver availability and maintaining the integrity of the play call.

Would receiving a shotgun snap and immediately sliding left just a few steps help? Seems logical. But our pass play selection seems bent on continuing with the same stubborn assumption that the blocking "will get better". Hmmm.

Wilson has proven in the past that he can be successful from the pocket. But we need just some average O line play from the right side to give him the consistency needed to develop confidence. Without that, I think all the other discussions about what ails this group are a distant second.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

It's getting really sickening to see people come here and put out alternate facts because of their preconceived notions or biases. Russell does NOT hold on to the ball much more than the top tier guys

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

This is a list of QBs' by time-to-throw, with the longest on top (screengrab below). Russell Wilson is #3 in the league at an average of 3 seconds, which is generally regarded as a point AFTER which every route tree in the package has been run and scramble drills have been started. With hundreds of pass attempts in the mix, a difference of .4 seconds is a big one.

That isn't a preconceived notion, confirmation bias, alternate fact, generalization, nitpick, or opinion. We can still talk about exactly how it affects Wilson, and I'm not suggesting that Germain Ifedi is not bad, but Wilson holding onto the ball isn't something that people are just making up.

 

[mrt144]

I'm going to put it out there that if you've had a known entity for 6 years and still can't coach around it, you're doing a poor job of coaching. It is bananas that both Bevell and Cable work so closely with RW and yet can't seem to get their players to refrain from grabbing outside of the shoulders which is a surefire holding on any outside scramble. Tackles and TEs are just hopeless.

This team needs an injection of new thought and eyes. Maybe provide a morale boost for the team as well since it might be a clean slate and the predilection for getting in a "here we go again" funk is diminished.

 

[Seymour]

This is a list of QBs' by time-to-throw, with the longest on top (screengrab below). Russell Wilson is #3 in the league at an average of 3 seconds, which is generally regarded as a point AFTER which every route tree in the package has been run and scramble drills have been started. With hundreds of pass attempts in the mix, a difference of .4 seconds is a big one.

That isn't a preconceived notion, confirmation bias, alternate fact, generalization, nitpick, or opinion. We can still talk about exactly how it affects Wilson, but Wilson holding onto the ball isn't something that people are just making up.

Tainted with early season poor oline scrambling.

Last year after a full 16 games Wilson was at 2.61. That is 20th longest time in the league.

 

[Scorpion05]

It's getting really sickening to see people come here and put out alternate facts because of their preconceived notions or biases. Russell does NOT hold on to the ball much more than the top tier guys

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

This is a list of QBs' by time-to-throw, with the longest on top (screengrab below). Russell Wilson is #3 in the league at an average of 3 seconds, which is generally regarded as a point AFTER which every route tree in the package has been run and scramble drills have been started. With hundreds of pass attempts in the mix, a difference of .4 seconds is a big one.

That isn't a preconceived notion, confirmation bias, alternate fact, generalization, nitpick, or opinion. We can still talk about exactly how it affects Wilson, and I'm not suggesting that Germain Ifedi is not bad, but Wilson holding onto the ball isn't something that people are just making up.

Okay, good points. Thanks for providing numbers, now let’s analyze them.

Notice the Qbs with the fastest release times so far? Tom Brady, Watson, and Aaron Rodgers are also in the bottom half. In fact, the Qbs with quick release times this year are not doing that well, except for Brees

So I stand by my statement before. When compared to the elite Qbs, Russell does not hold the ball that much more longer than others. When you factor in the actual, statistical facts of Russell being pressured compared to Brady and Rodgers, then him running for his life further underscores my point and inflates the numbers

Last year Russell’s time to throw was 2.61. Tom Brady was 2.56. Aaron Rodgers was 2.87

Not to mention, Russell is not captain check down. According to those very numbers you showed, Russell is near tops in the league at pushing the ball down field, which also factors in. My intention is not to simply blindly defend Russell. He does at times make mistakes bailing the pocket, not taking the checkdown, etc. But my point has always been, he is not doing anything most other Qbs don't. I usually take issue with those who claim that somehow the "Elite" Qbs don't take sacks like Russell, don't hold onto the ball like Russell, and the numbers don't bear that out. It's pretty on par at the end of the day

 

[Spin Doctor]

This is a list of QBs' by time-to-throw, with the longest on top (screengrab below). Russell Wilson is #3 in the league at an average of 3 seconds, which is generally regarded as a point AFTER which every route tree in the package has been run and scramble drills have been started. With hundreds of pass attempts in the mix, a difference of .4 seconds is a big one.

That isn't a preconceived notion, confirmation bias, alternate fact, generalization, nitpick, or opinion. We can still talk about exactly how it affects Wilson, but Wilson holding onto the ball isn't something that people are just making up.

Tainted with early season poor oline scrambling.

Last year after a full 16 games Wilson was at 2.61. That is 20th longest time in the league.

Last year he was also injured, and forced to play more like a pocket passer. He didn't have the mobility he normally does. Wilson can get the ball out quickly, he did in 2015. It's just a matter of Wilson getting in these modes where he wants to play hero ball. Sometimes he will blatantly ignore the check down to try and create a big play. It's awesome when it works, but it leads to a more inconsistent offense. I'm also of the mind that Carroll, and Bevell have been drilling this into him. Last game was a good example. No real checkdowns and a lot of intermediate in deep routes. Recipe for disaster.

 

[seedhawk]

Honest question to several posters here. If indeed RW ignores his hot routes or checkdowns on a consistent basis, then why, as an OC would you call a play that basically wastes a weapon?

Is Bevell not calling plays with those options simply because he knows RW won't use them?

 

[Smellyman]

New OC


Problems solved.

 

[mrt144]

Honest question to several posters here. If indeed RW ignores his hot routes or checkdowns on a consistent basis, then why, as an OC would you call a play that basically wastes a weapon?

Is Bevell not calling plays with those options simply because he knows RW won't use them?

This is what I wonder about. Is their rapport so screwed that RW can't and won't take the hot routes and Bevell thinks he's doing the right thing by not providing them? That is bananas. That is like passive aggressive dysfunctional relationship five alarm fires of avoidance.

I said this over on fieldgulls but it is hard to imagine that RW is an untamable stallion who just can't do hot routes. And if push came to shove are we really going to pick the OC over the franchise QB in a situation of trying a different trainer/horse to win more races? Like really, we're going to go with a different horse? Come on folks.

I also want someone to explain Cable's ongoing contribution as run game coordinator meaning nothing the past two seasons.

 

[LudwigsDrummer]

Honest question to several posters here. If indeed RW ignores his hot routes or checkdowns on a consistent basis, then why, as an OC would you call a play that basically wastes a weapon?

Is Bevell not calling plays with those options simply because he knows RW won't use them?

I'm no where near the level of many of the pros on this board but what I often recognize is Russell knows his outlet is there, yet he is looking downfield primarily. Sometimes he forces the ball in a tight spot but I view the play design as an outlet pass to a guy in the flat as a bail out that Russell seldom uses.

 

[mrt144]

Honest question to several posters here. If indeed RW ignores his hot routes or checkdowns on a consistent basis, then why, as an OC would you call a play that basically wastes a weapon?

Is Bevell not calling plays with those options simply because he knows RW won't use them?

I'm no where near the level of many of the pros on this board but what I often recognize is Russell knows his outlet is there, yet he is looking downfield primarily. Sometimes he forces the ball in a tight spot but I view the play design as an outlet pass to a guy in the flat as a bail out that Russell seldom uses.

This is a coachable thing right?

I wonder if this is similar to Andrew Luck getting inside his own head (well, not completely) about having to hero the hell out because his team was that bad. Maybe RW is under the same delusion that he needs to be looking for the big plays because other stuff isn't working as well either.

It's not that weird for a dude who has the validation of doing it and playing really solid efficient football under any scenario to force, is it?

But this seems like a coachable thing. RW doesn't seem like he's uncoachable.

Oh my god, do we really just have a collection of super talented uncoachable players? This whole time?