Wilson is not Elite

[lukerguy]

No QB can win without an oline/run game and defense... short of the Brady, Rodgers, generational types, etc...

Do I still consider the guys who can win with run game/defense elite? Sure. To me Russ is still in that 5-10 range for sure. Is he the best of the best? Not for me, but he's very good. Top 10 Qbs are still hard to find.

Brees could always win shoot outs but other than the SB year, they've always been between 7-9 and 10-6 with incredible home field advantage; now New Orleans has him mostly throwing 20-30 times per game with good defense and running game. He is even more efficient now even though the stats aren't as good.

Look at Dak Prescott in his rookie season.. They could run at all will with Zeke and that line... Now their line looks slightly above average instead of incredibly dominant, and Prescott looks average or worse. It's nearly impossible for QBs to overcome line weakness and defense and still contend for a SB every year... Rodgers and Brady are the only current players I can think of who can do it.

Look at Blake Bortles... last year they had the best defense and running game in the league, and he looked pretty decent. The year before that they didn't and he look bad.. This year he looks awful.. It is amazing how much those factors impact a QB...

Russ can win without a running game... we've seen it, so he is better than most, and when he does have both of those things, because of his "clutch" factor and mobility, there's very few QBs I'd rather have than Russ.

 

[chris98251]

How many Super Bowls has Brady and or Rodgers won without a running game threat and a decent defense?

Probably as many as Wilson, Belichek makes things happen on defense and always has a back that surprises when he is winning Super Bowls.


Rodgers, well it's been a while hasn't it, no running game and then no defense and now it seems a defense that isn't putting fear in anyone's heart and who's their back again?

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

Tom Brady needed help from Brandon Browner, Darrell Bevel, and Tom Cable to beat Russell Wilson in the Super Bowl.

 

[LTH]

Ill tell ya why he is an elite QB... Because no matter what the situation he always thinks he can beat it. If you look back at his games the past few years the play off game in Greenbay comes to mind as a perfect example... the Hawks are rarely out of a game. most games they have the opportunity to win with the exception of the Rams last year I can not remember a game they were not in position to win... RW has a lot to do with that...


LTH

 

[BleuEyedHawk]

When I see a thread like this, I want to pass it by. Not only do I disagree with the topic's premise (and intent), I just don't think it's worth debating/arguing over.

But then I got sucked in and as much as I tried to turn away, I became that driver who slowed down enough to count the number of wrecked cars on the side of the road (and hoping no one killed each other).

 

[West TX Hawk]

This same thread title pops up a few times a season. He’s been one of the best clutch QBs in the league for 6 years now and our team would struggle without him. In the 4th there’s not too many you’d rather have than him. At the same token, it’s perfectly fine to objectively say he played very poorly yesterday and the Chicago game too. A lot of folks get way too bent out of shape if anyone ever criticizes him. No coach, player or even fan is above objective critique.

 

[Tical21]

I'm really not sure any other starting qb in the league will throw as bad of an interception all year as that pick-6.

 

[LTH]

I'm really not sure any other starting qb in the league will throw as bad of an interception all year as that pick-6.

Remember the int Hass threw in the playoff game in overtime against GB?

i guarantee Wilson already forgot about it already


LTH

 

[northseahawk]

I am not sure why some still consider him elite. He is a decent qb, that does well in 2 minute offense. Unfortunately some fans choose to forget how terrible he plays, (on regular bases!) in 95% of the game.

 

[Uncle Si]

I'm really not sure any other starting qb in the league will throw as bad of an interception all year as that pick-6.

See Cousins, Kirk... last week vs Saints.

 

[Seymour]

I am not sure why some still consider him elite. He is a decent qb, that does well in 2 minute offense. Unfortunately some fans choose to forget how terrible he plays, (on regular bases!) in 95% of the game.

Well help Mr Wizard and explain how one could play terrible 95% of the time, yet have a perfect 158.3 game 1 week prior? Pathetic exaggerated analogy.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

I am not sure why some still consider him elite. He is a decent qb, that does well in 2 minute offense. Unfortunately some fans choose to forget how terrible he plays, (on regular bases!) in 95% of the game.

Well help Mr Wizard and explain how one could play terrible 95% of the time, yet have a perfect 158.3 game 1 week prior? Pathetic exaggerated analogy.

Well, he is only second in all-time quarterback rating, behind Aaron Rodgers and ahead of Tom Brady.

Rank Quarterback Rating
1 Aaron Rodgers 103.6
2 Russell Wilson 99.6
3 Tom Brady 97.6
4 Drew Brees 97.3

Oh, that's all-time, too. Not current active players. All players. What a horribly mediocre quarterback, indeed. Imagine how much better he'd look if he played less than terrible more than 5% of the time.

 

[BleuEyedHawk]

Thank you for the stats.

 

[Heyseed]

A Russell Wilson game is never boring.

 

[lukerguy]

How many Super Bowls has Brady and or Rodgers won without a running game threat and a decent defense?

Probably as many as Wilson, Belichek makes things happen on defense and always has a back that surprises when he is winning Super Bowls.


Rodgers, well it's been a while hasn't it, no running game and then no defense and now it seems a defense that isn't putting fear in anyone's heart and who's their back again?

First of all my point wasn't SB wins, it was a team that could threaten to win the SB every year. Brady has been to 8 SBs and aside from the 1st one they've never been a top defense. They've been respectable at times, but never been known for their defense.

Out of those 8 times, they've never had "running the ball" be what they're known for offensively. Brady takes what the defenses are willing to give, and often they won't stack the box.

Unlike Wilson, where you can very easily tell that they need to be able to establish the run in order to thrive.

The Pats look like the best team in the NFL right now and their defense is not in the top 15 in the league, and their leading traditional rusher has been out two weeks.

I can't believe you're arguing that Wilson is as good as Brady :177692:

 

[chris98251]

Belichek is known for his defenses, he had a hell of a defensive front for years with Wilfolk and great Linebackers in McGinest (OLB)Vrabel (OLB)Bruschi (ILB)Phifer (ILB) there for years as well. He had several RB's that he was able to use Dillon for a few years, Blount, Antowain Smith and then the WR's, he has always embraced the TE's and used them. with McDaniel's and Weiss.


Bradys fame is more his demeanor and fighter mentality, when his line sucked he took beatings and his team respected it, they quickly made sure they shored it up and fired a Oline coach or two also.


But go ahead and say he has not had a good team around him when he has been able to get to the dance.

 

[RCATES]

I love how those on here who share the opinion of most outside this fan base are considered ignorant on the game of football. Ever think that your blind optimism is based off your fandom of this team? Wilson’s stats the last 2 years have been skewed from constantly being behind against good teams going into the 4th quarter. Those teams go into Prevent which allows Wilson to do something he struggled with the entire game. Move the ball down the field through the Air. Yes he puts up good numbers against bad teams but so does Niners 3rd string QB. Wilson needs the threat of a running game or he struggles mightily. That’s not the case with 1st or 2nd Tier Qb’s. It’s not Wilson’s fault he was born short. It’s his athletic ability and soft touch deep balls that make him successful. His vision to read the field is a major downfall. There was receivers wide open all day Sunday. Wilson simply can’t see them. Wilson will never be Brees. As Wilsons athletic ability diminishes so will most of his game. He peaked in 2013. Now the league has him figured out. Well equipped good teams will give us the same results as Sunday. The final score didn’t represent what happened on Sunday. The moment Carson went out our Offense went to crap. Wilson needs help and that’s ok. Pay him that way. If this team gives him Elite money forget about ever sniffing another SB let alone the playoffs.

 

[bmorepunk]

I love how those on here who share the opinion of most outside this fan base are considered ignorant on the game of football.

Who are you referring to?

Ever think that your blind optimism is based off your fandom of this team?

Who are you referring to?

Pay him that way.

Wilson won't accept significantly lower than market value, and I don't blame him. That's not a thing.

If this team gives him Elite money forget about ever sniffing another SB let alone the playoffs.

This team may never make it to the Super Bowl in my lifetime, much less win one, no matter how good the rosters are. The All-Universe, "do everything right" Patriots have won two whole Super Bowls in the last 13 seasons. That is the best any team has done over that span. Saying a team won't get to/win a a Super Bowl is an easy sell. 93.75% of the teams in the NFL manage to not do that. Every single year.

Do you really think they won't ever make the playoffs with Wilson under a big contract? That's a pretty tough sell, given that about a third of the teams get in every year. I'd imagine Wilson has at least five years in him as a starter when he goes under his new contract, and only four NFL teams haven't been the the playoffs in over four years (Browns, Bucs, Jets, Bears).

 

[Mad Dog]

I'm really not sure any other starting qb in the league will throw as bad of an interception all year as that pick-6.

All that pick came down to was mistaking zone for man. It's a poorly designed play. QB's get fooled on man vs zone not infrequently. If that mistake leads to a pick six its a bad play design. Given it has no motion to identify zone vs man, it really makes it doubly bad.

The zone beaters were run on the other side of the field and should have been Wilson's go to if he's interpreted the coverage correctly. As soon as the CB realizes that Wilson thinks its man coverage, he knows he can freely buzz under to the out route and get a pick six.

Schotty needs to work on his man beaters to have them not lead to a pick six if the read is wrong. Rub routes are much better man beaters that rarely get picked even if its zone. 6 yd outs get destroyed if its zone.

Anyway, it was a bad interception but Dak's pick in the end zone throwing into double bracket coverage is just as bad. And I'm sure there's been an interception thrown into triple coverage at least once this year. Those are worse than Russ'.

 

[Mad Dog]

This same thread title pops up a few times a season. He’s been one of the best clutch QBs in the league for 6 years now and our team would struggle without him. In the 4th there’s not too many you’d rather have than him. At the same token, it’s perfectly fine to objectively say he played very poorly yesterday and the Chicago game too. A lot of folks get way too bent out of shape if anyone ever criticizes him. No coach, player or even fan is above objective critique.

Don't think any of us are arguing that he had a bad game. We are arguing that he is not a bad QB. Very different. I can objectively say he had a bad game but in reality it was largely just 5 plays. One bad read, one short armed throw, one throw behind his receiver, two coverage sacks. Pretty sure Wagner had 5 plays that were bad.

You always notice the QB because he touches the ball all the time. Makes them the lightning rod for both wins and losses.
He was almost perfect in Detroit and he was less than perfect this last weekend. None of that defines him as good, bad or elite. HIs body of work defines that and it certainly points in the good to elite range more than it does the bad range.

But feel free to say he had a bad game. I'll support that whole heartedly. Feel free to say he's not elite, I can support that if you state your requirements for "elite". Can't argue that point without some frame of reference. But saying he's a bad QB or mediocre or game manager. I have a problem with that because there are a ton of QB's worse than RW and the bar for good can't be "anyone worse than Brady, Rodgers or Brees".