As of now is RW top 5 QB?

As special as someone who claims to know football and can't see how good he is? You're entitled to your wrong opinion :2thumbs:

He put up a stat that proves RW can complete passes over the middle directly disputing your assertion he couldnt. You put up a different stat all together and then tried to change the discussion to fit it

They were a few missed field goals away from being an 11 win team, behind NO running game and a putrid O Line. But, let me guess, that had nothing to do with the QB running for his life and willing the team to victory, like he has most of his career.

Spin Doctor":2llittyt said:

Yes and no. Wilson is an enigma, an oddity at the QB position. This is why he is always bound to get criticism and second guessing thrown his way. Wilson's biggest issue is his lack of consistency. There are points in a game where he will miss the easiest 'gimmie' throws, or not see guys that are running wide open. This happens even if he gets good protection. When he is in these modes he may as well be Tarvaris Jackson.

The other side of Wilson is the terminator. God smiles from the heavens above, and grants Wilson the power to smite his foes with robotic like proficiency. When he is on he looks like the greatest QB to ever play this game. I would take Wilson when he is in the zone over Brady, Montana, Elway, etc. Nobody can stop the man in this mode, he looks almost as if he is possessed. He will make seemingly impossible throws, and he will look like Barry Sanders juking defenders in the backfield, as he throws a perfect pass with defenders draped over him.

This can be a bit jarring. In most games he will look like some back-up QB barely clinging to a job until the late third, and fourth Quarter. This, rightfully so leaves many fans confused, and wondering what exactly Russell Wilson is as a player. This may be why we brought in Schottenheimer. Bevell looked like a pushover, and punching bag for the players. People did not respect him or his schemes. Whenever I saw him he gave me the impression of a meek man that was unable to reign in his players. His authority was also greatly diminished by the co-coordinator set up he had with Cable. He was referred to as a passing game coordinator, and Cable as a running game coordinator. Schottenheimer on the other hand is known for being a hard a---.

This all goes back to Russ. He doesn't play within the confines of the offense. He has always been a QB that made up his own rules as he went. We like to view him as a rank and file guy, but in reality Russ bends every basic rule of playing QB on a regular basis. He is the biggest rogue in the organization on the field. This leads to interesting results that are both good, both bad. He can accomplish this due to his unique talents at QB. Unfortunately, because of this loose style he is lacking in fundamentals as a passer. He does not have the same internal clock that a QB such as Hasselbeck had. It simply does not exist for Wilson because of the miracles he is able to pull off in the backfield.

This bit is important for QB's becoming a consistent force. Wilson needs to learn when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. He will often forgo checkdown routes if they are available, because he knows he may be able to make something big happen. Unfortunately, Pete and Bevell encouraged this style of play. I like to call it hero ball. This style of play leads to awkward throwing positions, and less than ideal mechanics on a regular basis. This is why we see Russ consistently overthrow his receivers. Even if he gets a clear pocket, Russ tends to move around excessively. This is a recipe for bad throws. He doesn't need to be Brees, but he sure could learn a lot from the way he sets up his blockers, and manipulates the pocket. This will lead to more consistent play from Russ, and ultimately elevate his game to the next level.

Russ has developed some really bad habits, and I'm starting to think that maybe this is why a guy like Schottenheimer was brought in over some of the other big names on the market. Schotty is a no non-sense, old school style of coordinator. While I don't think much of his offenses and schemes, I do think he will bring a lot of value in taming our wild stallion of a QB. I think he was brought in more for this reason than his merits as a coordinator. He will demand much more out of Wilson than Bevell, and he will not sit back and be an "oh shucks" type of OC like Bevell was. He will demand accountability from his Quarterback.

So essentially what I said is, yes and no. He is both a top five QB, and not a top five QB.

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Russell Wilson is the only QB that struggles at points during games...fascinating. Brady, Montana, Manning are always perfect all the way through.

I am not a simplistic Wilson homer blind to criticism. But Wilson's faults are no worse than other QBs faults. Brady struggles when he gets hit/is under pressure. Manning struggled in big time playoff games. I can go on and on. But your points are not rooted in facts. Wilson does play within the confines of the offense. The idea that he runs around every play is simply a stereotype of him than reality. We think he runs around every play because often that ONE time he runs and spins around he scores a TD...ORRR there is a defender already in his face. I will respect Wilson critics more when they support their arguments with film and statistics. Otherwise this is nothing

Also, Tavaris Jackson was a pathetic comparison. The only thing they have in common is the box they might check off on the Census

Good points, like any QB, including Lord Brady and Erin Rodgers, he has things to work on. He can get better, and EVERY QB in the league has weaknesses in their game. He's not perfect, never said he was. He has plenty of plays during the season that make you scratch your head. But pretty much every quarterback does.

hawkman":3avpp765 said:

original poster":3avpp765 said:

hawkman":3avpp765 said:

MD5eahawks":3avpp765 said:

I really don't get the questioning of Russell Wilson. My god, what does he have to do!?!?

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Having the ability to throw consistently to the middle of the field would be a great start. Moving up in the pocket and throwing the ball would be cool to.

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Yeah he absolutely sucks throwing to the middle of the field... :roll:

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Watch the all 22 tape. There have consistently been guys open in the middle the last two two years, but the ball rarely goes to that part of the field. Cherry picking stats doesn’t change what the tape clearly shows.

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Then post several examples of film. Prove you're not just exaggerating to diminish a great Quarterback


By the way, being a great QB includes ALLLL the things you bring to the table. Not just what people believe a QB is supposed to be

RCATES":1w88g302 said:

Before last year I would have said yes. There's something extremely troubling about his inability to not get anything going until the 4th quarter last year. Especially at this stage of his Career. Although the Offensive line still wasn't great it was much improved the second half of the season ranking in the top 15 the last 6 games of the year. Yet RW still struggled mightily. Everyone want's to point at Bevell and that could be the case. I see something quite different though. I see a League that has adapted to limit Wilson's skill set and expose his inability to be a pure pocket QB due to his height. Some teams have the players to do this and other's do not. Sadly the one's that are equipped to do so are the one's standing in the Hawks way to reach another SB. Which is the main reason I believe the Hawks are done.

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If the league has adapted to him and is thus the reason he doesn't get it going until the 4th quarter, then why are they also not shutting him down when it comes down to it mattering the most?? Perhaps scheme, coaching and game philosophy has something to do with the slow starts?!

Shoot, his entire career people have been trying to tell you what he's not and/or what he can't do. Same crap over and over again on him. God forbid they ever concentrate on what he CAN do. And that's win at a rate as good as most or all in the league other than Brady. And how many QB's in the league have taken over as many games in the 4th Quarter and OT since Russ came in to the league? That list is very short. No pun intended :lol:
The conservative play calling in the first half of games is maddening.

hawkman":1ys20yyu said:

Seymour":1ys20yyu said:

hawkman":1ys20yyu said:

Seymour":1ys20yyu said:

That is not "cherry picking stats". That is posting direct evidence that what you are saying is complete BS. You cannot own that, therefore it is senseless to discuss with you. I could show you "reels of tape" where Rodgers or Brady miss wide open targets over the middle too. Does that mean they suck? :roll:

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Over the past two seasons he has averaged #12 in qbr. If those stats you mentioned are not cherry picked neither are mine. Clearly RW is not top 5, more like number 12.

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And you know better then HOF QB Kurt Warner and other professionals that are paid 100's of thousands per year to evaluate this?

Damn.....wish there was a safety net on this turnip truck. :snack:

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So just to be clear, you put up a stat it proves you right. I put up a stat and it means nothing! I totally understand! You RW apologists are a special breed :lol:

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Oh it means "something".....problem is you are not paying attention and your "stat is wrong".
Funny you now want to use QBR "when it suites you" yet Wilsons worst years blow away Hasselbecks best (who you claim is twice the QB) Hasselbeck is a career 82.4 QBR. Explain that.

but....but.....he's Russell Wilson, so I....I can't accept the fact that he's a baller.

SoulfishHawk":2c3gc6f8 said:

They were a few missed field goals away from being an 11 win team, behind NO running game and a putrid O Line. But, let me guess, that had nothing to do with the QB running for his life and willing the team to victory, like he has most of his career.

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This is a good point. Without Wilson that teams wins 5 games with that OL and running game. It's almost impossible to judge Wilson as a result, but he is definitely good. This team does have issues, some even serious, but Wilson is not one of them.

fenderbender123":uspblyll said:

As of now, he's a top 5 QB of all time. But as of now, he's not even a top 5 QB in the NFL as of now.

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I'm assuming this claim is based off of some statistical something, but when making "all time" QB claims, something worth remembering:

18 of the 20 best all time seasons by a QB have occurred since 2012 (would need to look it up but I think this was by QB rating, but might be something else).

That doesn't take away anything from guys like Brady, Rodgers, etc., but when you start going down that path all of a sudden you're arguing that Kirk Cousins is a top 10 QB in the history of the game.

Just as another way to look at it, If you go back for career qb rating, Steve Young and Joe Montana are the only two guys in the Top 25 all time who retired at any point in the history of the game before 2009.

Because of that, if you want to make all time arguments you gotta compare guys to performance over average for their era. If you don't, you're gonna find yourself trying to make sense of how David Garrard is a "significantly better" QB than Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman, and Warren Moon, and how in the world Blake Bortles isn't getting paid more given that he's "better than" John Elway and Johnny Unitas.

Uncle Si":1zgecqzt said:

RW was #10 last year. Just behind Drew Brees.

Is Drew Brees not a top 5 QB?

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Not a comment on Wilson, but no, I don't think Brees is a top 5 QB anymore.

The Saints have been trending this way for awhile, but last year more than ever they were increasingly investing in and relying on their run game and defense to mask over Bree's declining arm talent.

He's still top 10 IMO, but he just put up his worst season since 2006, and you can see it on game days too.

Like others have posted we really don't know what Wilson is or can be. The Oline was a disaster for 2016-2017 that has stunted two years of his development. YET even with the dumpster fire that played in front of him, that was his protection he still got the team 10 and 9 wins. Like another poster stated he has developed some bad habits. The Wilson Round House no longer works. What is the Wilson Round House? It is when he runs in a circle for 25 yards behind the line and finds a WR. From 2012-2015 teams had no answers for it. Now that he has played every team in the league almost twice teams have figured it out and with the pass blocking so bad for a long time it was the only thing he could do for two seasons.


PS

The stat showing his passer rating shows that his hight affects passes thrown short over the middle. Everything else he is above average.

sdog1981":l9l6l9a2 said:

Like others have posted we really don't know what Wilson is or can be. The Oline was a disaster for 2016-2017 that has stunted two years of his development. YET even with the dumpster fire that played in front of him, that was his protection he still got the team 10 and 9 wins. Like another poster stated he has developed some bad habits. The Wilson Round House no longer works. What is the Wilson Round House? It is when he runs in a circle for 25 yards behind the line and finds a WR. From 2012-2015 teams had no answers for it. Now that he has played every team in the league almost twice teams have figured it out and with the pass blocking so bad for a long time it was the only thing he could do for two seasons.


PS

The stat showing his passer rating shows that his hight affects passes thrown short over the middle. Everything else he is above average.

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Bruce Arians was the victim of one in 2017 - perhaps that was the straw that broke his tomato face.

Popeyejones":2459ltv8 said:

Uncle Si":2459ltv8 said:

RW was #10 last year. Just behind Drew Brees.

Is Drew Brees not a top 5 QB?

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Not a comment on Wilson, but no, I don't think Brees is a top 5 QB anymore.

The Saints have been trending this way for awhile, but last year more than ever they were increasingly investing in and relying on their run game and defense to mask over Bree's declining arm talent.

He's still top 10 IMO, but he just put up his worst season since 2006, and you can see it on game days too.

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His numbers fell short statistically his rating was higher. Which I suppose depends on how you want to look at it.

mrt144":2c0pf96i said:

Bruce Arians was the victim of one in 2017 - perhaps that was the straw that broke his tomato face.

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It needs to be one of his tools, not his only tool. I can see Bruce madden rage quitting the NFL because of the Wilson Roundhouse like people do in Madden.

Scorpion05":2qdj9926 said:

Spin Doctor":2qdj9926 said:

Yes and no. Wilson is an enigma, an oddity at the QB position. This is why he is always bound to get criticism and second guessing thrown his way. Wilson's biggest issue is his lack of consistency. There are points in a game where he will miss the easiest 'gimmie' throws, or not see guys that are running wide open. This happens even if he gets good protection. When he is in these modes he may as well be Tarvaris Jackson.

The other side of Wilson is the terminator. God smiles from the heavens above, and grants Wilson the power to smite his foes with robotic like proficiency. When he is on he looks like the greatest QB to ever play this game. I would take Wilson when he is in the zone over Brady, Montana, Elway, etc. Nobody can stop the man in this mode, he looks almost as if he is possessed. He will make seemingly impossible throws, and he will look like Barry Sanders juking defenders in the backfield, as he throws a perfect pass with defenders draped over him.

This can be a bit jarring. In most games he will look like some back-up QB barely clinging to a job until the late third, and fourth Quarter. This, rightfully so leaves many fans confused, and wondering what exactly Russell Wilson is as a player. This may be why we brought in Schottenheimer. Bevell looked like a pushover, and punching bag for the players. People did not respect him or his schemes. Whenever I saw him he gave me the impression of a meek man that was unable to reign in his players. His authority was also greatly diminished by the co-coordinator set up he had with Cable. He was referred to as a passing game coordinator, and Cable as a running game coordinator. Schottenheimer on the other hand is known for being a hard a---.

This all goes back to Russ. He doesn't play within the confines of the offense. He has always been a QB that made up his own rules as he went. We like to view him as a rank and file guy, but in reality Russ bends every basic rule of playing QB on a regular basis. He is the biggest rogue in the organization on the field. This leads to interesting results that are both good, both bad. He can accomplish this due to his unique talents at QB. Unfortunately, because of this loose style he is lacking in fundamentals as a passer. He does not have the same internal clock that a QB such as Hasselbeck had. It simply does not exist for Wilson because of the miracles he is able to pull off in the backfield.

This bit is important for QB's becoming a consistent force. Wilson needs to learn when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. He will often forgo checkdown routes if they are available, because he knows he may be able to make something big happen. Unfortunately, Pete and Bevell encouraged this style of play. I like to call it hero ball. This style of play leads to awkward throwing positions, and less than ideal mechanics on a regular basis. This is why we see Russ consistently overthrow his receivers. Even if he gets a clear pocket, Russ tends to move around excessively. This is a recipe for bad throws. He doesn't need to be Brees, but he sure could learn a lot from the way he sets up his blockers, and manipulates the pocket. This will lead to more consistent play from Russ, and ultimately elevate his game to the next level.

Russ has developed some really bad habits, and I'm starting to think that maybe this is why a guy like Schottenheimer was brought in over some of the other big names on the market. Schotty is a no non-sense, old school style of coordinator. While I don't think much of his offenses and schemes, I do think he will bring a lot of value in taming our wild stallion of a QB. I think he was brought in more for this reason than his merits as a coordinator. He will demand much more out of Wilson than Bevell, and he will not sit back and be an "oh shucks" type of OC like Bevell was. He will demand accountability from his Quarterback.

So essentially what I said is, yes and no. He is both a top five QB, and not a top five QB.

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Russell Wilson is the only QB that struggles at points during games...fascinating. Brady, Montana, Manning are always perfect all the way through.

I am not a simplistic Wilson homer blind to criticism. But Wilson's faults are no worse than other QBs faults. Brady struggles when he gets hit/is under pressure. Manning struggled in big time playoff games. I can go on and on. But your points are not rooted in facts. Wilson does play within the confines of the offense. The idea that he runs around every play is simply a stereotype of him than reality. We think he runs around every play because often that ONE time he runs and spins around he scores a TD...ORRR there is a defender already in his face. I will respect Wilson critics more when they support their arguments with film and statistics. Otherwise this is nothing

Also, Tavaris Jackson was a pathetic comparison. The only thing they have in common is the box they might check off on the Census

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You're getting the wrong idea here. Wilson is a good QB, in fact when he is in his zone there is no other QB I would rather have on my team. That being said, Wilson is a QB that will go three whole quarters without doing anything on a regular basis.

For example if you look at his first half stats vs his second half stats they tell a very different story: http://www.nfl.com/player/russellwilson ... ionalstats

Wilson has a 78 rating in the first half and only completes 59 percent of his passes. He also only averages 6.1 yards per completion here while throwing for only 8 TD's and 6 interceptions. His passing through the first three quarters of last season looked very mediocre when you look at the charts by quarter. The fourth quarter however is a different story entirely. In the 4th Quarter Wilson completes close to 70 percent of his passes, threw for 19 touchdowns, which is more than in his entire three quarters combined, and only threw 1 interception.... He does all of this while averaging 9.4 yards in the air.

This is what most people are confused about. The story of four quarters -- Wilson is utterly mediocre if we look at his first 3 Quarters. Other QB's do not have that kind of differential in their play:

http://www.nfl.com/player/tombrady/2504 ... ionalstats - averages a 100 QB rating in each quarter with similar yards per completion, and completion percentage. The big outlier here is the TD numbers in the second quarter, which is 16 -- much more than any of his other quarters.

http://www.nfl.com/player/carsonwentz/2 ... ionalstats - In all four quarters he is pretty consistent, the interceptions are all evenly spread, and the rating never dips below 90 except for when he is within 7 points.

http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbrees/250 ... ionalstats - First quarter is dismal, but he is pretty consistent from then on going forward.

http://www.nfl.com/player/philiprivers/ ... ionalstats - First quarter he does nothing, but then proceeds to have a fairly consistent three quarters

http://www.nfl.com/player/matthewstaffo ... ionalstats - A QB that some may call streaky. He never has a QB rating dip below 89, interception totals are spread out evenly between first and second half, numbers are pretty consistent.

http://www.nfl.com/player/benroethlisbe ... ionalstats - Okay first quarter, most of his interceptions happen here, but he goes on to be consistent throughout the entire game.

You can get where I'm going here. Most of these QB's are pretty consistent throughout the game. Russell Wilson on the other hand doesn't really get going here until the third quarter, and even his third quarter statistics are not that great. His fourth quarter statistics on the other hand are on the next level. In all of the other Quarters he struggles to even complete 60 percent of his passes, in the fourth quarter he completes a whopping 67 percent at 9.7 yards per clip. He only throws for 1 interception here, and he throws for more TDs than all of his other quarters combined. In fact, he is only 300 yards away from throwing for more YARDS in the fourth quarter than he does in all of his other quarters combined.

This right here is what I'm talking about.. Wilson is a completely different animal in the fourth quarter. Even his third quarter is not that special. This goes to show you what his potential is and how he is not quite living up to it. When I was looking at these stats it blew my mind. No other QB performed like this in the fourth quarter, those numbers were godlike, it especially become perplexing when we compared it to his other three quarters.

Looking at this stats really confirmed what I saw in game, Wilson really takes longer than most QB's to ramp up.

Another interesting tidbit is that Wilson held the ball for the second longest amount of time out of any QB last season: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

The longest being Watson, whom is a rookie, and has a much smaller sample size due to his injury.

Wilson is an oddity when you pry deeper in to statistics. It goes into what I was saying about being inconstant. Yes, every QB has had their bad days, and stretches, but what we can surmise from the numbers is that he has long stretches in games where he isn't very effective. I chock it down to not playing disciplined football. On the flipside of things, he also has some of the best fourth quarter stats I have ever seen. He has the ability to be one of the greatest, it is just that he is not living up to his potential. In the fourth quarter he enters another zone. All of the sudden it is like he gets hyper awareness. He starts stepping up in the pocket more, gets rid of the ball quicker, and navigates the pocket better. It is like we see two different quarterbacks playing during every game.

Interesting stuff. He's w/out a doubt one of the best closers we have ever seen. It's a trip how that switch gets turned on in the 2nd half of games, and especially in the 4th quarter.

SoulfishHawk":31okwwv4 said:

Interesting stuff. He's w/out a doubt one of the best closers we have ever seen. It's a trip how that switch gets turned on in the 2nd half of games, and especially in the 4th quarter.

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Yes, it is like we are watching two very different quarterbacks. The Wilson of the 4th quarter is a completely different beast all together.