Russell Wilson is Elite | I'm Putting the Nail in the Coffin

BoltonWanderer · Nov 20, 2018

Seymour":svvhf8jb said:
Sgt. Largent":svvhf8jb said:

Seymour":svvhf8jb said:

Sgt. Largent":svvhf8jb said:

You and I have had conversations about paying Russell 30M+, so now you're OK with it?

Or do you think he's magically going to accept 23M a year, cause that's all you think he's worth.

It's a very fair question, and I see both sides. My hope is we draft or acquire another QB that can run this offense the way Pete wants...........but if not? Then IMO we don't have a choice, gotta pay Russell.

Click to expand...

I've said all along I'm OK with paying Russell up to Rodgers $33M (preferably just under like last contract). Much over that....only if I know Pete will soon be gone.

But that is not what I answered either.

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So what if Pete stays?

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Then we are screwed with a franchise QB that was overpaid to play Peteball. Bring in an offensive mind that all changes again. Russell will outlast Pete no matter what, so keep that in mind.
They aren't going to move on from Russell, so no need to rehash that.

Sorry. Not giving you the answer you want today. :twisted:

Do you not think that the offence currently is good enough to win another Superbowl, providing that the defence is improved and becomes another really tough unit? Personally, I don't see this team getting to a Superbowl and being unable to score 25+ points against anyone in the league, it might not be the most spectacular offence but it can give a good enough platform that a well coached Carroll defence can protect a lead.

semiahmoo · Nov 20, 2018

BoltonWanderer":24vvhh8i said:
Seymour":24vvhh8i said:

Sgt. Largent":24vvhh8i said:

Seymour":24vvhh8i said:

I've said all along I'm OK with paying Russell up to Rodgers $33M (preferably just under like last contract). Much over that....only if I know Pete will soon be gone.

But that is not what I answered either.

Click to expand...

So what if Pete stays?

Click to expand...

Then we are screwed with a franchise QB that was overpaid to play Peteball. Bring in an offensive mind that all changes again. Russell will outlast Pete no matter what, so keep that in mind.
They aren't going to move on from Russell, so no need to rehash that.

Sorry. Not giving you the answer you want today. :twisted:

Click to expand...

Do you not think that the offence currently is good enough to win another Superbowl, providing that the defence is improved and becomes another really tough unit? Personally, I don't see this team getting to a Superbowl and being unable to score 25+ points against anyone in the league, it might not be the most spectacular offence but it can give a good enough platform that a well coached Carroll defence can protect a lead.

You're right. This team as it is, while much-improved over the previous couple seasons of crap ball, isn't a legit SB threat.

Those raising the "do we keep Wilson or not" are asking the very question at least some writing the checks for this team are, and those new faces to be writing the checks in the next year or two.

It's a legit question. Those who say "we could never let Wilson go" are not making a legit statement beyond one of silly emotion.

Maybe we keep him maybe we don't but I want all options looked at for the betterment of the team moving forward.

Tical21 · Nov 20, 2018

I'd rather pay Khalil Tate 1M per year than pay Russ 30. Get back to what got us there in the first place, a cheap, running QB.

Since 1999, only one QB has won a Super Bowl while being paid in the top 5 QBs. You say we have no snowball's chance without Wilson? Numbers say we have no snowballs chance with him.

Nail...Coffin!!

mrt144 · Nov 20, 2018

Tical21":2dhtsll6 said:
I'd rather pay Khalil Tate 1M per year than pay Russ 30. Get back to what got us there in the first place, a cheap, running QB.

Since 1999, only one QB has won a Super Bowl while being paid in the top 5 QBs. You say we have no snowball's chance without Wilson? Numbers say we have no snowballs chance with him.

1/20 QBs over 20 years vs. <1/20 QBs ever to start in the last 20...

Oooh, this is what I was looking for as well

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2035 ... t-paid-qbs

This was as of 2017. One of the pitfalls of evaluating a contract number year by year is that there are new market participants ever single year change the makeup of the top 5. Every year 2-3 QBs come up to contract and are given big money. What was once a headline number 2 years ago is relatively tame in the current year of contracts. I would love to see every QB contract of a SB participant QB examined under the context of when they were, if ever, a top 5 paid QB. Why participant? Cause cmon man, evaluating just SB winners is super reductive. Just getting to the SB has to account for some value as a QB, right? No? Then why are we even having this conversation? I can't be bothered to have a conversation with someone who thinks there are only two ways to build a good team and one of them is obviously wrong.

Secondly, and this shouldn't be a surprise, is that large 2nd contract for rookie contract QBs that win a SB are a reward to said QB. Should there be sentimentality in Football? No. Is there? Yes. There's only been what, 2 multiple SB winning QBs in the last 20 years, Brady and Manning although the latter's decade long gap is its own set of intrigue. Even if its irrational to reward a QB for being part of a SB winning team, it happens and that influences that stat.

Seymour · Nov 20, 2018

Tical21":28fklng6 said:
I'd rather pay Khalil Tate 1M per year than pay Russ 30. Get back to what got us there in the first place, a cheap, running QB.

Since 1999, only one QB has won a Super Bowl while being paid in the top 5 QBs. You say we have no snowball's chance without Wilson? Numbers say we have no snowballs chance with him.

Nail...Coffin!!

Your nail just bent in that stone coffin... :roll:

Northwest Seahawk · Nov 20, 2018

Right now all I can say is sometimes he's elite sometimes he's not and that's the real truth of Wilson this season. He's 6th in passer rating according to Brock this week so that's pretty damn good . Elite to me is a player that can carry a team i'm not sure Wilson fits that criteria this year. I'd like to see how he plays down the stretch we'll revisit this at the end of the season then we can look at this year in totality.

Palmegranite · Nov 20, 2018

Tical21":ae7xb3w0 said:
I'd rather pay Khalil Tate 1M per year than pay Russ 30. Get back to what got us there in the first place, a cheap, running QB.

Since 1999, only one QB has won a Super Bowl while being paid in the top 5 QBs. You say we have no snowball's chance without Wilson? Numbers say we have no snowballs chance with him.

Nail...Coffin!!

For 17 years, Buffalo Bills low paid quarterbacked team has never sniffed a playoff game until 2018. Not SB win, just a playoff appearance. This is in the "easy street" division that is so easy to win, an asterisk is suggested beside the Patriots accomplishments in the record books.
Perhaps research those "not top paid" QBs and their team's success rates, and get back to us.

It sounds like you're saying you would rather have 17 years of losing, rather then pay Russell Wilson, based on very sketchy anectdotal evidence.

Fade · Nov 20, 2018

Northwest Seahawk":1orxe6au said:
Right now all I can say is sometimes he's elite sometimes he's not and that's the real truth of Wilson this season. He's 6th in passer rating according to Brock this week so that's pretty damn good . Elite to me is a player that can carry a team i'm not sure Wilson fits that criteria this year. I'd like to see how he plays down the stretch we'll revisit this at the end of the season then we can look at this year in totality.

Wilson has carried the team for 3.5 seasons. With a T-Jack in his place they go back to the basement.

Cabevell sabotaged these last few seasons. Now with those clowns out of the way, things are looking up. They are improving rapidly.

Which would you prefer to happen?

Would you rather have Wilson and a $170M to build the rest of your team?

-or-

A Kase Keenum type game manager and a $185M to build the rest of your team?

Please choose the one you liken best.

Keep in mind Pete has a knack for developing young defensive players on the cheap to makeup the $$$$ difference.

Fade · Nov 20, 2018

mrt144":uhc3swlg said:
Tical21":uhc3swlg said:

I'd rather pay Khalil Tate 1M per year than pay Russ 30. Get back to what got us there in the first place, a cheap, running QB.

Since 1999, only one QB has won a Super Bowl while being paid in the top 5 QBs. You say we have no snowball's chance without Wilson? Numbers say we have no snowballs chance with him.

Click to expand...

1/20 QBs over 20 years vs. <1/20 QBs ever to start in the last 20...

Oooh, this is what I was looking for as well

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2035 ... t-paid-qbs

This was as of 2017. One of the pitfalls of evaluating a contract number year by year is that there are new market participants ever single year change the makeup of the top 5. Every year 2-3 QBs come up to contract and are given big money. What was once a headline number 2 years ago is relatively tame in the current year of contracts. I would love to see every QB contract of a SB participant QB examined under the context of when they were, if ever, a top 5 paid QB. Why participant? Cause cmon man, evaluating just SB winners is super reductive. Just getting to the SB has to account for some value as a QB, right? No? Then why are we even having this conversation? I can't be bothered to have a conversation with someone who thinks there are only two ways to build a good team and one of them is obviously wrong.

Secondly, and this shouldn't be a surprise, is that large 2nd contract for rookie contract QBs that win a SB are a reward to said QB. Should there be sentimentality in Football? No. Is there? Yes. There's only been what, 2 multiple SB winning QBs in the last 20 years, Brady and Manning although the latter's decade long gap is its own set of intrigue. Even if its irrational to reward a QB for being part of a SB winning team, it happens and that influences that stat.

Yes, this is a very good point. Context is very important. You have guys like Joe Flacco, Jimmy G, Stafford, Derrick Carr, etc. messing up that stat. Just because your top 5 paid doesn't mean your top 5 ability wise. I have already proven Wilson is an elite player, and you have admitted as much Tical.

Adding on to that. Great QB's get paid, and then quickly fall down the list as the guys behind them sign their deals.

When Wilson signed his deal he was the 2nd highest paid QB in the league. Want to take a guess where he is now? The results may shock you.

Also too it is just plain hard to win SuperBowls period.

As an example how many QBs drafted #1 overall in the last 20 years not named Manning have won a Superbowl? So going by that logic you should never draft a QB with the #1 overall pick, unless his name is Manning.

Fade · Nov 20, 2018

Ambrose83":3rsdhsk4 said:
Sgt. Largent":3rsdhsk4 said:

Fade":3rsdhsk4 said:

Sgt. Largent":3rsdhsk4 said:

I love Russell, I'd love for him to retire a Seahawk, but we're lying to ourselves if we think it won't be EXTREMELY difficult to get back to a SB paying Russell north of 30M a year for the next 4-5 years.

Click to expand...

Actually it is the opposite. The Seahawks do not have a snowball's chance in hell without Russell Wilson.

Please read my previous post in it's entirety that I addressed @ Twisted.

There is a lot of false correlation going on here when discussing this specific topic.

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I for one think Pete can build another great defense again, a perennial top scoring defense that would allow for another good QB to step in and run his ball control/play action/explosive plays style of offense.

So my outlook is not as dire as yours or others who think we can only win another SB with Russell. To think we can only ever win again with Russell is a fatalistic outlook on the future of our Hawks.[

/quote]

Where and who? Russ makes throws every game the average guy you speak of can't.... Its ignorant at best to assume any average qb can come in and win... T jack was average ... You do recall how he did right

Right between the eyes. Nice headshot Ambrose83.

rcaido · Nov 20, 2018

Tical21":2tdrp26s said:
I'd rather pay Khalil Tate 1M per year than pay Russ 30. Get back to what got us there in the first place, a cheap, running QB.

Since 1999, only one QB has won a Super Bowl while being paid in the top 5 QBs. You say we have no snowball's chance without Wilson? Numbers say we have no snowballs chance with him.

Nail...Coffin!!

Hey guys never draft a black QB since there has only been one black QB to win a superbowl....Wilson doesn't count as he isn't black enough.

I've said this before...There is no changing these jokers mind.

They can have a straight Flush & would trade in their 9 hearts to try to get a royal flush. Go fish

Palmegranite · Nov 20, 2018

rcaido":2450nsk7 said:
Tical21":2450nsk7 said:

I'd rather pay Khalil Tate 1M per year than pay Russ 30. Get back to what got us there in the first place, a cheap, running QB.

Since 1999, only one QB has won a Super Bowl while being paid in the top 5 QBs. You say we have no snowball's chance without Wilson? Numbers say we have no snowballs chance with him.

Nail...Coffin!!

Click to expand...

Hey guys never draft a black QB since there has only been one black QB to win a superbowl....

I cannot but disagree with Tical and about 30 others here. When I read some of the comments here I'm disappointed, but like Russ I just remind myself that "he is going to make those 31 posters here regret it."

chris98251 · Nov 20, 2018

We Lucked out ha ha the year we got Wilson, lots of teams like his playing numbers but all rejected him for his size except John, John wanted him sooner and Pete held him back, Career back up was his best rating or Practice Squad QB.

Before that we had Flynn, Whitehurst, TJack and our best QB was Hass.

We brought in every QB from the wash out list we could, Pretty evident prior to Schotty John and Pete have issues evaluating QB's.

Holmgren in Green Bay and his staff had Brunell and Hass, they developed them, we now have Hundley, Schotty is probably our best chance to bring in a new QB if not Hundley to back up Wilson. He has helped develop some good ones.

Pandion Haliaetus · Nov 20, 2018

I’d rather keep Russ as I feel his two biggest strengths has been his overall durability as well as his mental toughness.

While his athleticism will continue to decline he puts in the work in terms of strength and flexibility plus being one of the best players not just QBs in knowing how to protect himself without being soft or timid. That with his already compact frame will continue to allow him to be relatively healthy at least throughout the duration of his next contract. If the protection continues to improve as well all then the chances for a detailing type of injury reduces as well.

I wouldn’t feel as sure of that with a young QB. They might have it or they might not.

And Russ has shown he can handle a lot and hes endured through a lot of highs and lows. Winning Superbowls. Winning Play-Off games. Winning in general. Having 8 years in the NFL. That’s vital experience. Plus All the locker room drama/turmoil he’s faced. The almost impossible duty of having to survive some of the worst Olives in the NFL. Not once as he ever acted out or threw his teammates under the bus nor acted in a way where you question his ability to lead. He’s failed and triumphed throughout his career. Again that’s vital. His competive nature/attitude/mindset is as good as any player I’ve seen in any sport. His ability to kind of reset is a strength often taken for granted.

I think Russ has only started to not only tap into the cerebral part of the game but as well as coming to terms with his own limitations. Not saying he hasn’t been an intelligent QB, but for much of his career I feel he’s been more puppet than master. And I feel he’s just hitting that prime where he’s going to be allowed to say steer the ship more and be involved in the coordination. Be allowed to call his own shots, to improvise before the snap rather than after.

That’s why I would keep Russ. He’s shown to have elite availability and intangibles and grit and moxie and experience.

You’re taking a gamble on that with a young QB however cheap or good he might be. That guy could easily fold under all that pressure. Russ has shown he can handle it.

Fade · Nov 20, 2018

Pandion Haliaetus":20rwsn22 said:
I’d rather keep Russ as I feel his two biggest strengths has been his overall durability as well as his mental toughness.

While his athleticism will continue to decline he puts in the work in terms of strength and flexibility plus being one of the best players not just QBs in knowing how to protect himself without being soft or timid. That with his already compact frame will continue to allow him to be relatively healthy at least throughout the duration of his next contract. If the protection continues to improve as well all then the chances for a detailing type of injury reduces as well.

I wouldn’t feel as sure of that with a young QB. They might have it or they might not.

And Russ has shown he can handle a lot and hes endured through a lot of highs and lows. Winning Superbowls. Winning Play-Off games. Winning in general. Having 8 years in the NFL. That’s vital experience. Plus All the locker room drama/turmoil he’s faced. The almost impossible duty of having to survive some of the worst Olives in the NFL. Not once as he ever acted out or threw his teammates under the bus nor acted in a way where you question his ability to lead. He’s failed and triumphed throughout his career. Again that’s vital. His competive nature/attitude/mindset is as good as any player I’ve seen in any sport. His ability to kind of reset is a strength often taken for granted.

I think Russ has only started to not only tap into the cerebral part of the game but as well as coming to terms with his own limitations. Not saying he hasn’t been an intelligent QB, but for much of his career I feel he’s been more puppet than master. And I feel he’s just hitting that prime where he’s going to be allowed to say steer the ship more and be involved in the coordination. Be allowed to call his own shots, to improvise before the snap rather than after.

That’s why I would keep Russ. He’s shown to have elite availability and intangibles and grit and moxie and experience.

You’re taking a gamble on that with a young QB however cheap or good he might be. That guy could easily fold under all that pressure. Russ has shown he can handle it.

True, and they could do both. Re-sign Russ, and keep drafting QBs, hoping they hit on one.

semiahmoo · Nov 20, 2018

Tical21":1px2hmj8 said:
I'd rather pay Khalil Tate 1M per year than pay Russ 30. Get back to what got us there in the first place, a cheap, running QB.

Since 1999, only one QB has won a Super Bowl while being paid in the top 5 QBs. You say we have no snowball's chance without Wilson? Numbers say we have no snowballs chance with him.

Nail...Coffin!!

Again, a valid point made.

Interesting that some say Russ 'carried' the team the last few seasons.

That's not true. The D was still banging away and more responsible for wins for some of that time and then last season when much of the D was diminished, well, so was the season. We kind of sucked.

So, if that's a version of 'carry' some like, have at it but if we aren't playing at a level that makes us a legit SB threat then forget it. You're pissing in the wind but at least your coffin analogy is appropriate because that's what the teams chances to reach the Super Bowl have been for more recent previous seasons - DOA. (We've never really contended since the true Beastmode era ended. (which was before Lynch's final season here when he was injured and fat.)

Not saying we keep Russ. Not saying we don't.

I (and others) am saying it's one very tough decision coming up at a time when the entire ownership situation is in flux as well.

Tical21 · Nov 20, 2018

TBF, I don't think Russ was ever top-5 APY. If the sample size were smaller, I'd say you have a point about the SB winner being too random. But we're going on 20 years now. I've been watching this for about 10. And every year, the playoffs are dominated with the top-QBs. Of the 12 playoff teams on any given year, 9 of them minimum are quarterbacked by top-13 QB's. And you know what happens? They almost always end up losing to a team with a better roster and a cheaper quarterback. If you want to make the playoffs often, pay your very good QB a ton of money. If you want to win a Super Bowl, don't. Interesting to see what happens when Goff comes up. Kudos to the Bills for recognizing that paying Tyrod would be franchise suicide. Like the Lions, like the Vikings, like the Redskins.

Your Case Keenum argument would hold a lot more water if Nick Foles didn't win a Super Bowl with a great roster last year.

Don't compare the Seahawks to the Bills.

But, you may struggle and not have a QB for a while. That's an X-factor. You don't know what you're gonna get. But you do know that if you pay a QB at the top of the position, you won't have a Super Bowl caliber roster for at least a few years.

I was against signing Russ last time. And it is probably more coincidence than not, but what happened to our team and our record since we signed him was almost EXACTLY what I told all of you was going to happen if we signed him.

Russ can win a Super Bowl. If we give him arguably the top defense in NFL history and HOF caliber RB.

ivotuk · Nov 20, 2018

In 2017, Russell Wilson set a new NFL Record with 19 fourth quarter Touchdowns.

He was responsible for almost all of the scoring, and because of a porous defense and a non-existent running game, had to constantly bring this team back in the fourth quarter.

Still, if we would have had a decent kicker, we may very well have made the playoffs.

What non-elite QB could possibly do that?

Answer: nobody.

Tical21 · Nov 20, 2018

ivotuk":23obtzw9 said:
In 2017, Russell Wilson set a new NFL Record with 19 fourth quarter Touchdowns.

He was responsible for almost all of the scoring, and because of a porous defense and a non-existent running game, had to constantly bring this team back in the fourth quarter.

Still, if we would have had a decent kicker, we may very well have made the playoffs.

What non-elite QB could possibly do that?

Answer: nobody.

Actually, the Seahawks had a top-half defense that was considerably higher than that for most of the year, and Russ was ranked below just about everybody else listed in this discussion in every other category besides touchdowns.

rcaido · Nov 21, 2018

Tical21":104mevjx said:
ivotuk":104mevjx said:

In 2017, Russell Wilson set a new NFL Record with 19 fourth quarter Touchdowns.

He was responsible for almost all of the scoring, and because of a porous defense and a non-existent running game, had to constantly bring this team back in the fourth quarter.

Still, if we would have had a decent kicker, we may very well have made the playoffs.

What non-elite QB could possibly do that?

Answer: nobody.

Click to expand...

Actually, the Seahawks had a top-half defense that was considerably higher than that for most of the year, and Russ was ranked below just about everybody else listed in this discussion in every other category besides touchdowns.

What about rushing? Did you forget that? Here is his career rushing compared to the elites.

Rogers 2818 14th year
Brady 996 yrds 19 years
Brees 764 18years
Rivers 569 15years

That's a combine 5,147 rushing yards for 66 seasons.

Wilson has already 3502 yards in only 7th season.
===================================================

What about approximate value? He was tied for 3rd out all the QBs last year. Here is how he stack with the rest of the years with other QBs. Couldn't get the stats for 2012

2017 ( #1 Brady, #2 Alex Smith, #3 Wilson & Brees)

2016 (#1 Matt Ryan, #2 Erin, #3 Brees) Wilson got #7 (injured)

2015 (#1 sCam Newton, #2 Wilson, # 3 Brady)

2014 (#1 Erin, #2 Wilson,)

2013 (#1 Peyton Manning, #2 Brees, #3 Wilson, sCam Newton, & Rivers)

He has been top 3 in value 4 out 5 times . Not bad for game manager, who is too short, & not black enough.

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