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O-line, coaches or players?
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:24 am
  • With a new regime, I think we'll quickly see if our offensive linemen are really that bad or if Cable was really that bad. It'd be hard to be any worse and I'm hopeful we find that Cable'scheme was the problem! I don't have a link but I read somewhere that Duane Brown believes the new scheme will work better with what we have, I hope so.
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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:28 am
  • I don't know about anyone else, but I have a much better feeling about Solari than I ever did about Cable.
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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:23 pm
  • The players are NOT faultless, BUT I’m placing the majority of the blame on Cable.

    Time will tell what the correct answer is.
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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:58 pm
  • Cable had everyone conned for years. For years the OLine underperformed, and Cable finally was exposed after Lynch was hurt, then retired/left probably to get away from Cable, and then he contrived to get Sherman Smith canned thus removing the filters that sheltered or protected him from the exposure of his incompetence, or the whackiness of his blocking schemes. Once Lynch, and Smith were gone he had little clue how to make the running game work b/c his OLine couldn’t block a lick, none of his RBs could stay healthy, or survive constantly being tackled behind or right at the LOS. We need to remember with Cable the team had 12 RBs in TC last season, had previously seasons before released Ware and axed a good RB in Collins who Baltimore has made into the quality RB our team’s scouts knew he was. Keeping Lacy was a sick joke. I wonder what Cable was spinning to Pete.

    Cable talked the talk but it was a Fable and had been his whole time here, others protected him. So glad he’s gone any average OLine coach including Solari who is better than average will be an upgrade. I am jazzed the big athletic crew here that has been flopping on Cable’s direction just might have a chance to display their physicality and real talent this coming season. It will be addition by subtraction.

    The team has two players that are proven ProBowl level players in Brown and Britt, now if we can get a RT from 3 candidates Ifedi, Fant and Jones; and Pocic or Odhiambo developes into a LG or a RG, and any of the others can play the other inside position the team should have an average to better than average OLine, instead of 5 players who flop in some lame attempt to all cut block while whiffing, not that it wasn’t obvious to all watching. That one play was the proof positive Cable was over his head and the team needed to move on from the Fable that was the OLine coach, Running Game Coordinator, and Assistant Head Coach. The O was screwed up by the division of authority between Bevell and him. This coaching change was way overdue.

    In reality I’m sure Cable is actually a good Coach, and a good man, but he was over his head here or he was protected by talent or others until exposed and had to go. However, I suspect he may find running things his way in Oakland will lead to a shorter tenure than here.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:04 am
  • Sports Hernia wrote:The players are NOT faultless, BUT I’m placing the majority of the blame on Cable.

    Time will tell what the correct answer is.


    And the time when we know that answer is less than 100 days away. It seems the OL will consist mostly of the same players so hopefully we will see a significant difference with past seasons.
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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:29 am
  • jammerhawk wrote:Cable had everyone conned for years. For years the OLine underperformed, and Cable finally was exposed after Lynch was hurt, then retired/left probably to get away from Cable, and then he contrived to get Sherman Smith canned thus removing the filters that sheltered or protected him from the exposure of his incompetence, or the whackiness of his blocking schemes. Once Lynch, and Smith were gone he had little clue how to make the running game work b/c his OLine couldn’t block a lick, none of his RBs could stay healthy, or survive constantly being tackled behind or right at the LOS. We need to remember with Cable the team had 12 RBs in TC last season, had previously seasons before released Ware and axed a good RB in Collins who Baltimore has made into the quality RB our team’s scouts knew he was. Keeping Lacy was a sick joke. I wonder what Cable was spinning to Pete.

    Cable talked the talk but it was a Fable and had been his whole time here, others protected him. So glad he’s gone any average OLine coach including Solari who is better than average will be an upgrade. I am jazzed the big athletic crew here that has been flopping on Cable’s direction just might have a chance to display their physicality and real talent this coming season. It will be addition by subtraction.

    The team has two players that are proven ProBowl level players in Brown and Britt, now if we can get a RT from 3 candidates Ifedi, Fant and Jones; and Pocic or Odhiambo developes into a LG or a RG, and any of the others can play the other inside position the team should have an average to better than average OLine, instead of 5 players who flop in some lame attempt to all cut block while whiffing, not that it wasn’t obvious to all watching. That one play was the proof positive Cable was over his head and the team needed to move on from the Fable that was the OLine coach, Running Game Coordinator, and Assistant Head Coach. The O was screwed up by the division of authority between Bevell and him. This coaching change was way overdue.

    In reality I’m sure Cable is actually a good Coach, and a good man, but he was over his head here or he was protected by talent or others until exposed and had to go. However, I suspect he may find running things his way in Oakland will lead to a shorter tenure than here.


    Great post. I'm not certain that Cable is even a good coach. His successes have come from teams that had a stud backfield. He had Lynch and Wilson here in Seattle, in Atlanta he had Michael Vick, Warrick Dunn, and TJ Duckett. Without those type of players, Cable's is ineffective. Also, he wasn’t great HC in college either. He was the first coach to be fired at Idaho in 22 years. That was back in 2005 but for some odd reason he keeps getting opportunities.
    Last edited by hawkfan68 on Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:33 am
  • I didn’t want my post to be totally negative. After all he did manage to get himself appointed HC in Oakland and his team had somewhat of a revival of their fortunes until he and Al Davis disagreed on his runblocking schemes. I certainly won’t defend him and think Pete screwed up in not moving him out earlier. Personally I wanted him gone even before XLIX as a pattern of weak OLine play was becoming more pronounced. Cable’s repeated assurances of “It’s coming together” were empty and a Fable we bought into in the hopes that something of promise would come from those assurances and positive spin progress reports.

    Another poster here mentioned that the players aren’t w/o blame and I agree with that, ' but Cable took away from them in more than one case and it was rare to see young players flourish to a point where they’d be worth that big second contract. He was given 3 first round picks to develop and a Pro Bowl quality LT and none of those three draft picks genuinely looked to deserve a big second contract and Brown’s play tailed off after starting well here last season. To be fair there were a few odd successes in Sweezy, Fant and that giant late 7th round lump who got cut after he ate himself off the team, there was sadly more pesonnnel failure than success. This naturally created more OLine churning and a lot of roster changes which of course took away from any realistic chance of continuity. In the end I rather doubt Cable’s version of zone blocking could ever be effective w/o a very exceptional RB who could mostly create the yardage on his own. As well the OLine more often looked like matadors in passpro and w/o Wilson’s ability to improvise the failure of Bevell’s schemes would have been even more pronounced.

    I support the view it is mostly upon the coaching that has resulted in poor OLine play..
    Last edited by jammerhawk on Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:00 am
  • The ZBS is difficult to teach. Run blocking isn't emphasized in HS and college anymore. Seattle prefers run blocking lineman. Rules have changed.

    I remember the 2016 game against the Pats. The team said that they emphasized more power, man on man blocking for that game. It seemed to work really well. (Fant, Glowinski, Britt, Ifedi, Gilliam)

    Perhaps the ZBS's time has come. I'm glad it won't be Solari's primary scheme. It gives me hope that the OL will actually be at least league average this season.
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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:14 am
  • Solari is definitely an upgrade over Cable. That said, outside of Brown, we do not have decent OL on the team (except maybe Britt). This is the reason why I cannot jump on the "we are going to shock the critics" train. You simply cannot go very far with the level of talent we have at OL. When you have a lousy OL you cannot run the ball, cannot control the clock and put way too much pressure on your defense.
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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:49 am
  • Let’s be careful with our assessments of the talent the team has here. Each of our linemen save the most recent draft pick is athletically superior, he is reportedly technically superior. Those on the roster here have been struggling to fit into a zone scheme that favours smaller players and have been poorly coached until now. Let’s tap the brakes on writing them all off save Brown and Britt until we see what Solari can do with them in a more normal system (read, less whacky).

    I think there are a few guys on the roster that could be a great deal better than they’ve shown to now or could show marked improvement in a scheme that allows them to display their athletic ability and strength rather than be forced to overthink on each play.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:50 am
  • Ultimately the blame falls on Pete Carroll.

    Pete wanted to carry over the principles and schemes that he won with in college, and he hired Alex Gibbs to install the zone blocking scheme in Seattle. After missing on Trent Williams, they drafted Russell Okung with the 6th pick in the 2010 NFL draft to lock down the most important position on the OL, left tackle.

    Out of the blue, Gibbs retired just before the 2010 season started, with some insiders suggesting that disagreements on personnel decisions contributed to his departure. Pat Ruel was brought in as a stopgap replacement and the team finished 31st in the NFL in rushing.

    After that season Cable was hired as offensive line coach, but was granted additional power with the titles of Assistant Head Coach and Running Game Coordinator. Marshawn Lynch, who had been acquired via trade midway through the 2010 season and punctuated that first year in Seattle with his Beastquake run, finished 2011 with 1204 yards and 12 touchdowns. The rest, as they say, is history.

    So what went wrong?

    A few things:

    1) College offenses were changing and the talent pool for offensive linemen started to dry up
    2) Seattle's young stars started earning new mega contracts
    3) Cable convinced Pete that he could start turning raw athletes in to quality NFL offensive linemen that would thrive in his zone scheme
    4) Injuries, trades, and free-agent departures depleted the existing veteran O-line talent
    5) Draft picks and free-agent acquisitions on the O-line fizzled and Cable's project athletes struggled to find success
    6) Chop blocks, already illegal on passing downs, were made illegal on running downs after the 2015 season

    So what did Pete do wrong?
    1) He and John Schneider failed to adjust scheme and personnel strategy to account for the changing talent pool
    2) He hired Cable and gave him possibly the most power than an NFL O-line coach has ever had
    3) He trusted Cable to develop unskilled athletes in to quality NFL offensive linemen
    4) He and Schneider under-prioritized the retention of veteran starters on the O-line
    5) He, Cable, and Schneider failed massively at acquiring O-Line talent
    6) The rules changed (which should not have been a surprise), and Pete stuck with Cable and his zone scheme. The team went from 3rd in the NFL in rushing in 2015 (even with Lynch gaining only 417 yards) all the way down to 25th following the rules change for the 2016 season.

    Was Cable to blame? Absolutely. But Pete gave him too much power, put too much trust in him, and did not make changes when it was clear Cable's philosophies were failing. As a result the team lost 2-3 years of title contention and the chance at a dynasty.
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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:28 pm
  • jammerhawk wrote: the OLine more often looked like matadors in passpro and w/o Wilson’s ability to improvise the failure of Bevell’s schemes would have been even more pronounced.

    I support the view it is mostly upon the coaching that has resulted in poor OLine play..


    This ^,
    For sure Bevell was having to design his plays around an O-Line that couldn't be counted on to make some of the plays workable, thanks to Cables shitty Offensive Line Coaching schemes.
    When you have some players floundering while playing for the Seahawks, and then go elsewhere and starts getting their shit together under different Coaching, that's pretty telling.
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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:48 pm
  • scutterhawk wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote: the OLine more often looked like matadors in passpro and w/o Wilson’s ability to improvise the failure of Bevell’s schemes would have been even more pronounced.

    I support the view it is mostly upon the coaching that has resulted in poor OLine play..


    This ^,
    For sure Bevell was having to design his plays around an O-Line that couldn't be counted on to make some of the plays workable, thanks to Cables shitty Offensive Line Coaching schemes.
    When you have some players floundering while playing for the Seahawks, and then go elsewhere and starts getting their shit together under different Coaching, that's pretty telling.



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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:45 pm
  • A-Dog wrote:
    Was Cable to blame? Absolutely. But Pete gave him too much power, put too much trust in him, and did not make changes when it was clear Cable's philosophies were failing. As a result the team lost 2-3 years of title contention and the chance at a dynasty.



    I cut the other stuff to save space. But one thing you left off was Cable was hired at the worst moment, right after the lockout. Once the dust settled Cable no longer had offseason hitting or two-a-days to get his scheme to work with new linemen. In many ways, JR Sweezy was detrimental to the teams long term success because Cable could point to JR and say his ideas where working. More to your point this falls to Pete because he should have fired Cable once the team cut Drew Nowak and started Lewis at center in 2015 and the offense took off at a record-setting pace.
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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:27 am
  • I wonder what could have ..... should have ...... happen under the Coaching of Mike Solari ...




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Re: O-line, coaches or players?
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:35 pm
  • A-Dog wrote:Ultimately the blame falls on Pete Carroll.

    Pete wanted to carry over the principles and schemes that he won with in college, and he hired Alex Gibbs to install the zone blocking scheme in Seattle. After missing on Trent Williams, they drafted Russell Okung with the 6th pick in the 2010 NFL draft to lock down the most important position on the OL, left tackle.

    Out of the blue, Gibbs retired just before the 2010 season started, with some insiders suggesting that disagreements on personnel decisions contributed to his departure. Pat Ruel was brought in as a stopgap replacement and the team finished 31st in the NFL in rushing.

    After that season Cable was hired as offensive line coach, but was granted additional power with the titles of Assistant Head Coach and Running Game Coordinator. Marshawn Lynch, who had been acquired via trade midway through the 2010 season and punctuated that first year in Seattle with his Beastquake run, finished 2011 with 1204 yards and 12 touchdowns. The rest, as they say, is history.

    So what went wrong?

    A few things:

    1) College offenses were changing and the talent pool for offensive linemen started to dry up
    2) Seattle's young stars started earning new mega contracts
    3) Cable convinced Pete that he could start turning raw athletes in to quality NFL offensive linemen that would thrive in his zone scheme
    4) Injuries, trades, and free-agent departures depleted the existing veteran O-line talent
    5) Draft picks and free-agent acquisitions on the O-line fizzled and Cable's project athletes struggled to find success
    6) Chop blocks, already illegal on passing downs, were made illegal on running downs after the 2015 season

    So what did Pete do wrong?
    1) He and John Schneider failed to adjust scheme and personnel strategy to account for the changing talent pool
    2) He hired Cable and gave him possibly the most power than an NFL O-line coach has ever had
    3) He trusted Cable to develop unskilled athletes in to quality NFL offensive linemen
    4) He and Schneider under-prioritized the retention of veteran starters on the O-line
    5) He, Cable, and Schneider failed massively at acquiring O-Line talent
    6) The rules changed (which should not have been a surprise), and Pete stuck with Cable and his zone scheme. The team went from 3rd in the NFL in rushing in 2015 (even with Lynch gaining only 417 yards) all the way down to 25th following the rules change for the 2016 season.

    Was Cable to blame? Absolutely. But Pete gave him too much power, put too much trust in him, and did not make changes when it was clear Cable's philosophies were failing. As a result the team lost 2-3 years of title contention and the chance at a dynasty.


    :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

    Excellent post!!
    I agree with all of this. I tired toward the end, but have bringing up most of these points 3+ years now. I know some here got tired of hearing this from me (as did I to be honest), but I feel this is the number 1 issue / frustration that caused us to fall short of our potential.

    Also, the toll it took on Russell (this pisses me off even more) is still to be determined!! I think our 1st half blues are much the result of D-Carr syndrome (and Bevells inability to adjust for him) that was caused by none other than Fable (and allowed by Pete to continue long after it was obvious to all).
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