FAO 49ers fans

[HawkWow]

It's very difficult to teach a QB to go through his reads.

Most either can do it or they can't.

Exactly. It's like trying to correct an age old (poor) golf swing. You don't just start seeing multiple targets because it's a good idea to do so. I was explaining this to an employee this morning (9er fan). The only intelligent thing, IMO, Harbaugh can do at this stage is let Kaep run. Screw injury. Kaep is deadly as hell when a threat to run, take that threat away and he, IMO, is one of the worst QBs in the league. The 9ers can still go deep this season if they turn him loose. If they don't, they won't. No sense in fearing injury. They need a QB regardless and signing Kaep to a multi would just be nuts. Let's hope they continue to run things down there void of common sense.

 

[Popeyejones]

Popeye: But you have Boldin, who wins balls in ultra-tight coverage. You still have to get it to him on intermediate routes. Davis needs to get hit underneath more often too.

Yeah, I've of course acknowledged the presence of Boldin throughout the thread. The problem is that without Vernon in there he's just double covered all game (as he was yesterday) because there aren't any other receiving threats until Manningham and Crabtree are all the way back, and while Boldin can muscle away tons of balls without getting separation, he's nowhere near the type of player who can beat double coverage (and throwing to him in double coverage hoping he'll musicle the ball away is just begging for turnovers).

Hitting Davis underneath meaning what? Most of his production comes from intermediate drags on play action.

Not trying to be a jerk (sincerely), but how frequently are you watching full 9ers games intently? I ask because your claim that Kap is eager to abandon the pocket is just bizarre, and you keep saying that the 9ers should be doing things that they are doing and have been doing for the last two years. Really not a dig at you, but it seems like your experience with their offense is pretty thin (which isn't an insult, as practically nobody is closely watching teams that aren't their own every week).

 

[Popeyejones]

It's very difficult to teach a QB to go through his reads.

Most either can do it or they can't.

Exactly. It's like trying to correct an age old (poor) golf swing. You don't just start seeing multiple targets because it's a good idea to do so.

I have to ask: have either of you guys coached before? I ask b/c this is kind of a strange claim. How to maintain your motion and avoiding ticks that everyone has when under duress is practically impossible to teach, how to read defenses is really hard to teach, how to step up into the pocket and know when to bail is really hard to teach. How to progress through your reads isn't even near the top of the list, and definitely isn't even remotely a "can" or "can't" thing.

(Also, just to say it, I love Russ Wilson, but him bailing on the play so much hides the fact that he's very rarely progressing through his reads at all. I don't think it's a problem with him, the problem is diagnosing defenses and not bailing to just play streetball after three seconds (which he's REALLY good at), but it's really worth saying -- and yes, I've watched every Hawks pre-season and in-season game this season in full, and what's happening is fairly obvious, IMO).

 

[Smelly McUgly]

I have seen the Niners play five games (not counting pre-season), so yeah, I am watching. I think you are wrong about Kaepernick being skittish and wanting to vacate the pocket too early. I would ask if you are watching closely (sincerely as well). Your own beat writers agree with me more than with you, frankly.

Likewise, this 49er offense is not predicated around intermediate routes anymore. It was when Smith was QB, but right now it is predicated around hitting longer routes off the run game. Essentially, your team is having some of the same problems that our team was - trying to play the long game off the run without the personnel to do it because of injuries (for us, a porous OL, for you, a lack of playmaking WRs). While not an exact match in terms of what both of our teams try to do, that is roughly similar.

I also note that you aren't paying attention to Russell Wilson if you think that he is bailing on the play so much. That's just a bizarre thing to say. He was actually a bit skittish because of bad protection, but he's been standing in and throwing from the pocket (and getting hammered). He had the least amount of throws outside the pocket in his career against ATL (two). You're wrong in your analysis, frankly.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Popeye, they're probably basing it on the fact that Kaepernick can't get past his first read after being in the league for 2.5 years and having 18 or 19 starts under his belt, including playoffs & the Super Bowl.

8)

 

[Popeyejones]

I have seen the Niners play five games (not counting pre-season), so yeah, I am watching.

Okay. Thanks for answering.

Likewise, this 49er offense is not predicated around intermediate routes anymore.

Yeah, I've already said this and explained why too.

It was when Smith was QB, but right now it is predicated around hitting longer routes off the run game.

Yeah, already said this too and explained why.

I also note that you aren't paying attention to Russell Wilson if you think that he is bailing on the play so much. That's just a bizarre thing to say. He was actually a bit skittish because of bad protection, but he's been standing in and throwing from the pocket (and getting hammered). He had the least amount of throws outside the pocket in his career against ATL (two). You're wrong in your analysis, frankly.

Agreed about the Atlanta game. Do you think the Atlanta game was typical or atypical in this regard?

Also being skittish/uncomfortable in the pocket != bailing on the pocket/bailing on the designed play.

This season, disproportionately, Kaepernick has been guilty of the former and not the latter. In turn, disproportionately, Wilson has been guilty of the latter and not the former. It's less of a big deal for Wilson because he's so slippery and effective after he bails, but if you're claiming that the above distinction isn't true, we're really just watching different games, and will probably have to leave it at that (agree to disagree, basically).

 

[Popeyejones]

Popeye, they're probably basing it on the fact that Kaepernick can't get past his first read after being in the league for 2.5 years and having 18 or 19 starts under his belt, including playoffs & the Super Bowl.

8)

:lol:

Yeah, if they actually cared enough to watch 9ers games and were paying attention they'd realize it was kinda silly to begin with. He had all of 22 attempts on Sunday, and plenty of them weren't to his primary read. And TBH, in the 9ers offense and with the Oline breaking down (six sacks), if it was more than it was it would have been a problem.

 

[Smelly McUgly]

Oh, Kaepernick still wants to take off. He has just been unable to do so because of defensive adjustments against him. From what I can see, take what he was doing in Week Two against us and compare it to Week Seven. Even in Week Two, he was vacating the pocket quickly and ripping off some good runs through gaps.

Yesterday against Carolina, they were actively blitzing through Kaepernick's escape routes. There was one play where a Carolina safety blitzed from ten yards deep and shut down the only real running route that Kaepernick had as he started to pull the ball down and stop dancing around - sack.

I think teams with the defensive personnel to pull it off are not only spying Kaepernick - they are sending those spies on blitzes through gaps where Kaepernick would otherwise escape. The guy is getting hit more this year than any year I can remember, or at least he is in the three losses that they have.

Re: Wilson, he was running less until Lynch (and later the coaching staff) started telling him to take off because the OL wasn't holding up. I think his ability to create plays on the run outside of the pocket really blinds people to his ability from within the pocket. This isn't to say that he has stopped bailing the pocket early completely, but it certainly isn't as evident to me as it was last year, and he had better protection throughout the year last year on top of that.

But yes, we can agree that we disagree about what we are seeing.

 

[Popeyejones]

Lieutenant Dan --

Just to provide some #s to support the explanation re: Davis from earlier.

With Davis in the game this year Kap's QBR is 81.7 (#2 in the league behind Peyton) and his completion % is 61.1%.

With Davis out of the game his QBR 13.1 (dead last of starting QBs in the league) and his completion % is 43.1%.

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-francisco-4 ... rnon-davis

I disagree that this is about the magic of Davis, though. Kap did really well last year without really going to Davis at all (e.g. for the last six games of the regular season last year under Kap Davis played all of them and totaled 11 receptions for 61 yards).

It's not Davis, it's just what happens when the 9ers are left with a single viable receiving option on the field. Davis is the one who has been in and out, but if it had happened to Boldin, we'd see the same thing, IMO. Teams just double Boldin, who will never beat a double team in his life, and the pass game disappears as there's nobody else to go to. That might change this year, but putting in all your chips on players who were never really that special to begin with coming in off of IR and performing well (e.g. Manningham and Crabtree) probably ain't the best bet either. It's what makes the 9ers backing out of the Gordon trade in week 2 because of Aldon so maddening.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

It's very difficult to teach a QB to go through his reads.

Most either can do it or they can't.

Exactly. It's like trying to correct an age old (poor) golf swing. You don't just start seeing multiple targets because it's a good idea to do so.

I have to ask: have either of you guys coached before? I ask b/c this is kind of a strange claim. How to maintain your motion and avoiding ticks that everyone has when under duress is practically impossible to teach, how to read defenses is really hard to teach, how to step up into the pocket and know when to bail is really hard to teach. How to progress through your reads isn't even near the top of the list, and definitely isn't even remotely a "can" or "can't" thing.

(Also, just to say it, I love Russ Wilson, but him bailing on the play so much hides the fact that he's very rarely progressing through his reads at all. I don't think it's a problem with him, the problem is diagnosing defenses and not bailing to just play streetball after three seconds (which he's REALLY good at), but it's really worth saying -- and yes, I've watched every Hawks pre-season and in-season game this season in full, and what's happening is fairly obvious, IMO).

Cut the condescending tone. No I haven't 'coached' like presumably the vast majority of internet chat forum users. And let's be right here, those who have coached won't have done so at any level to make it worthy of your question.

If you think it's relatively easy to teach, feel free to live in that world. I've watched a lot of QB's in recent years... hundreds of hours of tape (and documented all my views, they're all published). And with nearly every QB I've been able to note whether he goes through his reads or not and see that skill crossover immediately to the pro's.

So often I've found it is a can or cannot do thing. You cannot teach poise, the ability to sit and carefully go 1-2-3 then back to 1 or a checkdown. It's a natural thing. And there are lots of contributing factors that make it possible for a player to do. And some guys just can't deal with. I've not seen an smidge of improvement from Kaepernick since he became the starter. And that to me suggests ultimately he's not going to get it. It's not like the coaches in SF have been ignoring this -- it's been an issue since day one. And no improvement.

 

[HawkWow]

Popeye, they're probably basing it on the fact that Kaepernick can't get past his first read after being in the league for 2.5 years and having 18 or 19 starts under his belt, including playoffs & the Super Bowl.

8)

:lol:

Yeah, if they actually cared enough to watch 9ers games and were paying attention they'd realize it was kinda silly to begin with. He had all of 22 attempts on Sunday, and plenty of them weren't to his primary read. And TBH, in the 9ers offense and with the Oline breaking down (six sacks), if it was more than it was it would have been a problem.

Yeah...the problem with your little theory is I watch as much Niner football as you do. Not necessarily by choice. Teaching a QB to go through his reads is not rocket science, no. But breaking a QB, like yours, from not going thru his reads is an entirely different animal...and that's why my golf swing analogy. I don't feel compelled to argue with you on this. Let's just agree you have a future hall of famer in Kaep. Please start a campaign to get him a life time deal. Revolt if necessary.

 

[HawkWow]

It's very difficult to teach a QB to go through his reads.

Most either can do it or they can't.

Exactly. It's like trying to correct an age old (poor) golf swing. You don't just start seeing multiple targets because it's a good idea to do so.

I have to ask: have either of you guys coached before? I ask b/c this is kind of a strange claim. How to maintain your motion and avoiding ticks that everyone has when under duress is practically impossible to teach, how to read defenses is really hard to teach, how to step up into the pocket and know when to bail is really hard to teach. How to progress through your reads isn't even near the top of the list, and definitely isn't even remotely a "can" or "can't" thing.

(Also, just to say it, I love Russ Wilson, but him bailing on the play so much hides the fact that he's very rarely progressing through his reads at all. I don't think it's a problem with him, the problem is diagnosing defenses and not bailing to just play streetball after three seconds (which he's REALLY good at), but it's really worth saying -- and yes, I've watched every Hawks pre-season and in-season game this season in full, and what's happening is fairly obvious, IMO).

Cut the condescending tone. No I haven't 'coached' like presumably the vast majority of internet chat forum users. And let's be right here, those who have coached won't have done so at any level to make it worthy of your question.

If you think it's relatively easy to teach, feel free to live in that world. I've watched a lot of QB's in recent years... hundreds of hours of tape (and documented all my views, they're all published). And with nearly every QB I've been able to note whether he goes through his reads or not and see that skill crossover immediately to the pro's.

So often I've found it is a can or cannot do thing. You cannot teach poise, the ability to sit and carefully go 1-2-3 then back to 1 or a checkdown. It's a natural thing. And there are lots of contributing factors that make it possible for a player to do. And some guys just can't deal with. I've not seen an smidge of improvement from Kaepernick since he became the starter. And that to me suggests ultimately he's not going to get it. It's not like the coaches in SF have been ignoring this -- it's been an issue since day one. And no improvement.

Excellent post. Not only has he not progressed, he's regressed. Why? Because he is now being asked to play QB. I should have elaborated with my last post, but you did so more eloquently than I could. You can teach a kid to not play in the street, that doesn't mean the kid is not going to play in the street. Whether it's difficult or easy to teach a QB to go through his reads is really immaterial. Each is an individual and often times will go with gut over brain. That's the flight before fight mentality that dooms so many QBs.

 

[SanDiego49er]

It's very difficult to teach a QB to go through his reads.

Most either can do it or they can't.

Alex Smith sure got a lot better at it. He was useless as a 1st or 2nd year guy. He got better and better every year at reads and progressions and going to the right guy. He has some arm strength limitations but he got better at reading the field and making the right decision. It's one of the things he is best at and one of the reasons K.C. is 9 - 0.

So a QB can get better at that as their career progresses.

 

[RichNhansom]

How does the O-line compare between A Smiths early years and Kaep's.

Do you think alternating OC's each year was a factor for Smith vs the 3rd year with Harbaugh?

Do you think Harbaugh is better or worse at developing QB's than Smith early coaches and OC's?

 

[Popeyejones]

Cut the condescending tone. No I haven't 'coached' like presumably the vast majority of internet chat forum users. And let's be right here, those who have coached won't have done so at any level to make it worthy of your question.

Apologies. It wasn't intended to be condescending. As you guys are making declarative statements about what is and is not easier and harder to teach at the position which contradicts what most people who have taught the position think is easier and harder to teach, let alone what someone either "has" or "doesn't" (i.e. what is unteachable), I was just curious on what grounds the declarative statements were being made. The natural question is of course if you've ever taught it before. It wasn't intended to be condescending.

If you think it's relatively easy to teach, feel free to live in that world.

I never said that. I know it's easier to argue with someone when you get to invent claims for them, but it would probably be more productive if you stuck to things I've said rather than making up things that are easier to be dismissive of. Just for clarification moving forward, if you go back to my post I said there are many things that are harder to teach (and listed some of them -- meaning, it is not one of the hardest things to teach), and said it is not one of the unteachable "can" or "can't" things.

I've watched a lot of QB's in recent years... hundreds of hours of tape (and documented all my views, they're all published).

Oh, cool. Didn't know that. If you have access to 22 college tape and people are paying you to publish your evaluations on the position then that's obviously what you're basing your statements on. Link?

 

[Popeyejones]

I don't feel compelled to argue with you on this. Let's just agree you have a future hall of famer in Kaep. Please start a campaign to get him a life time deal. Revolt if necessary.

And so too here. In inventing hyperbolic claims for me you're not even arguing with me in the first place, so we're not really arguing at all.

You are the first person to mention Kaepernick as a hall of famer. Nobody has even posited that he'll eventually be a pro-bowl alternate. :lol:

I've made three claims:

1) I do not believe that so far this season the 9ers would have been better off with Alex Smith. It's a subjective claim, so I spent a long time explaining why I feel this way, and why I'm pretty confident about it.

2) I disagreed with the claim that teaching a QB to go through his reads is one of the hardest things to teach, or is unteachable, as it's simply not true.

3) I said that Kaep not being able to go beyond his first read is quite overstated (and borders on a meme) among Seahawks fans.

I'm fine to drop all of it, but if you'd like to disagree with me about something, I'd prefer it be something I've stated, rather than something you've invented for me that's easier to argue with (the whole point of inventing it in the first place, obviously).

 

[RichNhansom]

Maybe looking at their college play would be a better way to form a comparison. What exactly was Keep so raw in when entering the NFL? Was he proficient at progressions at Nevada or is this an area he has always struggled with?

It is pretty difficult to compare the early years at QB because the speed of the game can make a young QB struggle with things he may be better at than first appearance. I think the college career might be a better place to look to see if it is a new struggle that should improve as the game slows down or an existing problem that coaches are hoping to coach out of him.

 

[Popeyejones]

I think that's a good idea.

Positives: Good arm strength... Extremely productive, ended his career as the only active college football player to accumulate 10,000 passing yards and 4,000 rushing yards... Constantly improving as a passer, completion percentage has increased each season he has played at Nevada... Over the top release... Makes good decisions, doesn't turn the ball over very often... Uses his athleticism to his advantage by taking off to run rather than force a bad throw... By all accounts a great person, a leader on the field, and a good teammate off of it... Extremely mobile, very good top-end speed, can outrun defenders... Elusive in the open field for his size, can make people miss... Great height... A long strider, is much faster than he looks... One of the off-season's fastest risers, had a huge Senior Bowl week... Coachable, a likeable person who reacts well to coaching... Measured in much better than expected at the Senior Bowl, appears to have a nice strong build, continued to add weight (eight pounds) between the Senior Bowl and combine.

The things that I don't think are true here are: 1) his release point dips, 2) I don't think he makes people miss that much, and 3) not forcing bad throws isn't a strength, he does it sometimes, as does every QB. I know you guys despise the guy, but the stuff about him being well-liked and very coachable on his team is definitely true.

Negatives: Puts a little too much loft under his deep outs... Misses too many easy throws... Receivers have to adjust to too many of his passes... Deep throws are all over the place... Tries to do too much with his feet, runs with the ball far too often when he should keep his eyes downfield to throw... Very awkward throwing motion, has an elongated release where he pauses at the top of his motion before flicking the football forward... Will take a ton of big hits in the NFL if he doesn't change his playing style... Plays in Nevada's Pistol offense... Will need to learn to take snaps from under center... A project player, athletic, but needs a lot of coaching... Looks to take off with the football under pressure rather than stepping up into pressure to make a throw.

Mostly agree with this too. The things that I haven't seen are 1) problems with deep accuracy (it's the short accuracy that is a problem), 2) his release is ugly and looks long but it's actually very fast (sports science did an ep on this with him actually), 3) he's really, really not taking off and running that much at all this season, although he did it more last year. Save for that, I agree on these negatives too.


Another one:

Strengths:
Great size and speed
Very athletic
Good arm strength and accurate passer
Throws well from both the pocket and on the run
Makes big plays with both his arm and legs
Plays with a lot of confidence

Again, disagree with the accuracy thing, particularly on short and intermediate throws (he makes his WRs have to fight for too many of these.

Weaknesses:

Very raw talent who will need time to develop
Questionable throwing mechanics, has a long windup

Again, definitely ugly mechanics, but the long windup thing is overstated, IMO.

Another one:

STRENGTHS Kaepernick is an excellent blend of height, build and speed for a quarterback. Possesses toughness and leadership qualities. Flashes good accuracy on intermediate routes. Shows enough arm strength to make most NFL throws. Won't have many passes batted down. Can escape the pocket and pickup first downs with his legs.

I don't think his ability to escape the pocket is that great, although once he does, when he does, yeah, he can obviously pick up first downs doing it.

WEAKNESSES Plays out of the pistol, lacks experience under center. Has not been asked to make NFL progressions and reads. Not quick to check down or hit hot read against the blitz. Misses too many short passes. Doesn't have consistent touch on the deep ball. Release is somewhat elongated and can dip down to sidearm at times.

Agreed that he lacked experience under center (and is still more comfortable not under center), that he , like most college QBs, wasn't asked to go through NFL progressions, he misses too many short passes (finally someone had noticed!) and that his release cand dip down to a sidearm, and that he doesn't check down that much. He has been really good against the blitz though (IIRC even better against the blitz than not against the blitz, oddly), and his deep ball touch has proven to be one of his strengths.

Basically, as for the topic, one draft analyst mentioned he wasn't asked to make NFL progressions at Nevada. That's true. In the 9ers offense they're primarily running three step drops and turn-and-strike play-actions, so they're designed to not do this much either. He still does it though, and much more than Hawks fans seem to realize. In any case, out of three evaluations only one makes mention of it, and it is about the offense he was in. I disagree with some of the strengths and with about an equal number of the weaknesses, but this wasn't a major issue (his throwing motion, like Wilson's height, was a big issue, and a hugely overstated one IMO).

 

[Ozzy]

If its so easy to teach someone to progress through all their reads then why doesn't Kap do it? Its not just Seahawks fans that are calling him out on it. Numerous scouts and NFL talking heads have talked about it too. Quit saying its just Hawk message board fodder because that is simply not true. Wilson is much better at it and at this stage of their careers he just sees the field better, processes the information better and makes the play more often then Kap does. He often does it under much more diress than Kap does as well. Look at what Wilson does when he is given time...

I will agree that the offense San Fran runs doesn't put a premium on "reads" in an ideal situation. But he still struggles when that first read isn't available. He has to improve if the offense is to play better.

 

[Smelly McUgly]

I've watched a lot of QB's in recent years... hundreds of hours of tape (and documented all my views, they're all published).

Oh, cool. Didn't know that. If you have access to 22 college tape and people are paying you to publish your evaluations on the position then that's obviously what you're basing your statements on. Link?

www.seahawksdraftblog.com

Watching Hawkwow and PopeyeJones go at it is hilarious.