LJ Collier

[SantaClaraHawk]

He's actually more than what I thought he would be as he appears to have a regular spot in the rotation.

He's like a Solomon Thomas, a functional player, but he'll never be the wow your seats off guy.

 

[niveky]

pretty sure first week Green is eligible back is next week and then i figure he will have to get a week in a practice before he can play.

 

[Elemas]

Well, regardless of draft position, we call all agree that he just isn't cutting it.

Let's say he was drafted in the 5th. Based on his performance right now, would you say the pick was justified?

I wouldn't. Let alone a first.

Let's call it what it is. A bust.

 

[toffee]

Got to say I am not seeing progress from week one til now.

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[Appyhawk]

pretty sure first week Green is eligible back is next week and then i figure he will have to get a week in a practice before he can play.

What is your expectation of his length of availability after he returns?
Seems like he's been an IR most of his term here.

 

[TwistedHusky]

This team makes a lot of reaches.

When it works out, you get a Metcalf, Carson, or Clark.

When it doesn't you get Malik McWhatshisname or LJ Collier.

If you want them to swing for the fences, you have to accept the batting average is going to drop.

We draft for upside not for ability. So we get a lot of guys that got overlooked but we also have problems filling holes because we never know where our best players will come from. We take lots of shots in the dark, we sometimes get a few hits.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Well, regardless of draft position, we call all agree that he just isn't cutting it.

Let's say he was drafted in the 5th. Based on his performance right now, would you say the pick was justified?

I wouldn't. Let alone a first.

Let's call it what it is. A bust.

Well, that's highly ridiculous, but alright.

 

[Elemas]

Well, regardless of draft position, we call all agree that he just isn't cutting it.

Let's say he was drafted in the 5th. Based on his performance right now, would you say the pick was justified?

I wouldn't. Let alone a first.

Let's call it what it is. A bust.

Well, that's highly ridiculous, but alright.

Which part? As it stands, I'm not sure as to what myself and many others are missing? Stats aren't everything once you're established (maybe you're so good you're getting double-teamed) but, they certainly count for LJ.

Something I'm missing?

 

[samwize77]

This team makes a lot of reaches.

When it works out, you get a Metcalf, Carson, or Clark.

When it doesn't you get Malik McWhatshisname or LJ Collier.

If you want them to swing for the fences, you have to accept the batting average is going to drop.

We draft for upside not for ability. So we get a lot of guys that got overlooked but we also have problems filling holes because we never know where our best players will come from. We take lots of shots in the dark, we sometimes get a few hits.

This probably closest to the truth in my book. When you juggle BPA or PON you're gonna get mixed results. To me its tough to shred PC/JS for someone like Collier, when they "reach" for someone like DK.

 

[Elemas]

This team makes a lot of reaches.

When it works out, you get a Metcalf, Carson, or Clark.

When it doesn't you get Malik McWhatshisname or LJ Collier.

If you want them to swing for the fences, you have to accept the batting average is going to drop.

We draft for upside not for ability. So we get a lot of guys that got overlooked but we also have problems filling holes because we never know where our best players will come from. We take lots of shots in the dark, we sometimes get a few hits.

This probably closest to the truth in my book. When you juggle BPA or PON you're gonna get mixed results. To me its tough to shred PC/JS for someone like Collier, when they "reach" for someone like DK.

Agreed. Not a knock on JS or Pete. But, can't we call the baby ugly sometimes? The LJ pick is an ugly baby. Maybe it'll look better over time but, right now...it's an ugly baby.

No different than other teams. It's hit or miss usually. But, you gotta be ok with praising a selection like DK AND take the criticism as well. It doesn't mean JS and PC "sux and need to go, Malik McDowell, yarrrr...fml...$%$@".

Back to the thread title....the criticism simply means.....LJ is smelling, looking, producing, displaying, bust-like traits.

 

[JayhawkMike]

I think most here understand that the draft is hit or miss. However for me with our first picks we have so far been MISS for 5 years. FIVE years. McDowell, Ifedi, Penny, Brooks and Collier. Seriously puke.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Well, regardless of draft position, we call all agree that he just isn't cutting it.

Let's say he was drafted in the 5th. Based on his performance right now, would you say the pick was justified?

I wouldn't. Let alone a first.

Let's call it what it is. A bust.

Well, that's highly ridiculous, but alright.

Which part? As it stands, I'm not sure as to what myself and many others are missing? Stats aren't everything once you're established (maybe you're so good you're getting double-teamed) but, they certainly count for LJ.

Something I'm missing?

You're missing a lot. To be fair, though, most here are.

Firstly, let's dive into some context on Collier. He was injured in 2019 and never got fully healthy. This has been confirmed by Carroll. His 2019 snaps were terrible, which makes sense given the dude could hardly plant, much less anchor properly.

Moving on to 2020, Collier slims down, adds explosion, and wins a starting job in camp after being written off and pushed around in a taxing 2019 season. Better yet, he plays competently! He shows the anchor, he shows a new, quicker first step, and he shows the versatility to move inside and out. He even makes a game winning tackle on Cam Newton.

Heck, let's go to the Vikings game - check out this rush from the 3. This is in his 6th game as a HEALTHY pro player, and he is slimmer, faster, and has some juice to him for such a stout guy.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CorbinSmithNFL/status/1316437446612054019[/tweet]

People need to stop letting their sour taste from 2019 dictate the entire narrative. He's finally healthy, has improved a great deal, and won a starting spot - no one likes to talk about these things, they just keep whining as if nothing has changed.

Finally, let's check out his stats as of after the Vikings game, courtesy of a SI commenter with a PFF subscription. This shows, clearly, that he is filling a role - IN HIS FIRST REAL, HEALTHY ACTION. This is good. It indicates upside.

In weeks 1 through 5 Collier has played 189 snaps. This is less than what Jefferson (233) and Green (201) played in the first 5 weeks of 2019.

Colliers projected totals for tackles (19), sacks (3.2) and pressures (28.8) compared to Jefferson (26 tkl, 3.5 sacks and 16 pressures) and Green (27 tkl, 4 sacks and 15 pressures) in 2019.

To say Collier isn't worthy of a late first? Sure, you know what, that's debatable. We'll see how he continues to grow after an unfortunate injury-plagued 2019. But to make that comment about him not filling the role of a fifth rounder? That's either severely wrong or purposely ridiculous.

 

[samwize77]

I think most here understand that the draft is hit or miss. However for me with our first picks we have so far been MISS for 5 years. FIVE years. McDowell, Ifedi, Penny, Brooks and Collier. Seriously puke.

I certainly don't like having Brooks on this list. Not even half way through his first season. And injuries DO happen, even to rookies. Lets see how this plays out.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I think most here understand that the draft is hit or miss. However for me with our first picks we have so far been MISS for 5 years. FIVE years. McDowell, Ifedi, Penny, Brooks and Collier. Seriously puke.

I certainly don't like having Brooks on this list. Not even half way through his first season. And injuries DO happen, even to rookies. Lets see how this plays out.

Not just that... but Brooks is playing well and Collier is essentially playing up to Quinton Jefferson caliber already... just seems super disingenuous to try to start perpetuating the bust label even harder, despite emerging evidence to the contrary

 

[JayhawkMike]

I agree it is too early to put a final grade on Collier and Brooks. There are two ways to evaluate draft picks:

1. Did we draft them in the correct spot In the draft based on their perceived value at the time? The answer to both is absolutely not. Sure, a rumor or two always comes out that team X would have picked them if we hadn’t but those are just rumors and rarely verified, could we have drafted Collier a round or two later? Yes. Meaning we could have had a different and likely better first pick.

2. Performance on the field based on expected performance based on draft position. Collier so far has been a failure. Brooks is an incomplete. Yes, you can blame injuries but that means that the team is not taking that into account when drafting. Is there really any other team that keeps drafting players that lose significant time in Year one or two with early draft picks?

Time will tell. But there is no reason we have to wait to discuss the issues. Hence, a “forum”. The “shut up Pete and JS know what they are doing and we are all idiot fans who don’t know crap” crowd is pretty insufferable here at times.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I agree it is too early to put a final grade on Collier and Brooks. There are two ways to evaluate draft picks:

1. Did we draft them in the correct spot In the draft based on their perceived value at the time? The answer to both is absolutely not. Sure, a rumor or two always comes out that team X would have picked them if we hadn’t but those are just rumors and rarely verified, could we have drafted Collier a round or two later? Yes. Meaning we could have had a different and likely better first pick.

2. Performance on the field based on expected performance based on draft position. Collier so far has been a failure. Brooks is an incomplete. Yes, you can blame injuries but that means that the team is not taking that into account when drafting. Is there really any other team that keeps drafting players that lose significant time in Year one or two with early draft picks?

Time will tell. But there is no reason we have to wait to discuss the issues. Hence, a “forum”. The “shut up Pete and JS know what they are doing and we are all idiot fans who don’t know crap” crowd is pretty insufferable here at times.

Regarding point #1, you cannot answer that, and you certainly cannot deride "rumors" that come out about where a player would've gone, because the big boards and mock drafts you're basing the value of a player on are literally formed by rumors about players. That's what media-reported draft stock is. Rumors that come out AFTER the fact would be more accurate, not less, because smokescreening would be less advantageous.

Brooks was going no later than 33. You've got too many people saying it for it to be totally unfounded. Also, here's a take: Brooks is playing better football than Queen. It's an outrageously small sample size, but Brooks so far is better. Queen is raw, lost in coverage, but has made a couple splash plays inbetween. I've corroborated this with tape, PFF, and checking out Queen threads on Ravens forums.

Regarding point 2, sure. If you judge Collier for his full career including an injury-riddled waste of 2019, then he's been a bust. If you apply context and look at his play now where he's healthy, leaner, faster, versatile, and applying pressure at roughly the same rate as 2019 Quinton Jefferson, then the jury is very much so still out, and calling him a bust is a projection based on little concrete evidence.

P.S. The only thing more tiring than people blindly defending the front office are the naysaying crowd that don't listen to reason.

 

[JayhawkMike]

I agree it is too early to put a final grade on Collier and Brooks. There are two ways to evaluate draft picks:

1. Did we draft them in the correct spot In the draft based on their perceived value at the time? The answer to both is absolutely not. Sure, a rumor or two always comes out that team X would have picked them if we hadn’t but those are just rumors and rarely verified, could we have drafted Collier a round or two later? Yes. Meaning we could have had a different and likely better first pick.

2. Performance on the field based on expected performance based on draft position. Collier so far has been a failure. Brooks is an incomplete. Yes, you can blame injuries but that means that the team is not taking that into account when drafting. Is there really any other team that keeps drafting players that lose significant time in Year one or two with early draft picks?

Time will tell. But there is no reason we have to wait to discuss the issues. Hence, a “forum”. The “shut up Pete and JS know what they are doing and we are all idiot fans who don’t know crap” crowd is pretty insufferable here at times.

Regarding point #1, you cannot answer that, and you certainly cannot deride "rumors" that come out about where a player would've gone, because the big boards and mock drafts you're basing the value of a player on are literally formed by rumors about players. That's what media-reported draft stock is. Rumors that come out AFTER the fact would be more accurate, not less, because smokescreening would be less advantageous.

Brooks was going no later than 33. You've got too many people saying it for it to be totally unfounded. Also, here's a take: Brooks is playing better football than Queen. It's an outrageously small sample size, but Brooks so far is better. Queen is raw, lost in coverage, but has made a couple splash plays inbetween. I've corroborated this with tape, PFF, and checking out Queen threads on Ravens forums.

Regarding point 2, sure. If you judge Collier for his full career including an injury-riddled waste of 2019, then he's been a bust. If you apply context and look at his play now where he's healthy, leaner, faster, versatile, and applying pressure at roughly the same rate as 2019 Quinton Jefferson, then the jury is very much so still out, and calling him a bust is a projection based on little concrete evidence.

P.S. The only thing more tiring than people blindly defending the front office are the naysaying crowd that don't listen to reason.

That’s the category I place you in. I haven’t seen you be anything but a “yes” man for the front office. Anything you think they’ve done wrong the last 2-3 years?

 

[Maelstrom787]

I agree it is too early to put a final grade on Collier and Brooks. There are two ways to evaluate draft picks:

1. Did we draft them in the correct spot In the draft based on their perceived value at the time? The answer to both is absolutely not. Sure, a rumor or two always comes out that team X would have picked them if we hadn’t but those are just rumors and rarely verified, could we have drafted Collier a round or two later? Yes. Meaning we could have had a different and likely better first pick.

2. Performance on the field based on expected performance based on draft position. Collier so far has been a failure. Brooks is an incomplete. Yes, you can blame injuries but that means that the team is not taking that into account when drafting. Is there really any other team that keeps drafting players that lose significant time in Year one or two with early draft picks?

Time will tell. But there is no reason we have to wait to discuss the issues. Hence, a “forum”. The “shut up Pete and JS know what they are doing and we are all idiot fans who don’t know crap” crowd is pretty insufferable here at times.

Regarding point #1, you cannot answer that, and you certainly cannot deride "rumors" that come out about where a player would've gone, because the big boards and mock drafts you're basing the value of a player on are literally formed by rumors about players. That's what media-reported draft stock is. Rumors that come out AFTER the fact would be more accurate, not less, because smokescreening would be less advantageous.

Brooks was going no later than 33. You've got too many people saying it for it to be totally unfounded. Also, here's a take: Brooks is playing better football than Queen. It's an outrageously small sample size, but Brooks so far is better. Queen is raw, lost in coverage, but has made a couple splash plays inbetween. I've corroborated this with tape, PFF, and checking out Queen threads on Ravens forums.

Regarding point 2, sure. If you judge Collier for his full career including an injury-riddled waste of 2019, then he's been a bust. If you apply context and look at his play now where he's healthy, leaner, faster, versatile, and applying pressure at roughly the same rate as 2019 Quinton Jefferson, then the jury is very much so still out, and calling him a bust is a projection based on little concrete evidence.

P.S. The only thing more tiring than people blindly defending the front office are the naysaying crowd that don't listen to reason.

That’s the category I place you in. I haven’t seen you be anything but a “yes” man for the front office. Anything you think they’ve done wrong the last 2-3 years?

Rashaad Penny was a horrible first round pick (not because of the player, per se, but the position), Marquise Blair wasn't the right safety to take but they wanted his tone-setting hits more than anything (although credit for finding him a role he was doing good in, pity about his injury), I wouldn't have let Jadeveon walk, Blair Walsh was a horrific decision all-around, the Tedric Thompson debacle lasted far too long, and the Cowboys game was self-destructively bad gameplanning.

I have plenty of criticisms, I just think that they have to come with nuance and solid reasoning, and that there's more praise than criticism to be made.

 

[JayhawkMike]

I agree it is too early to put a final grade on Collier and Brooks. There are two ways to evaluate draft picks:

1. Did we draft them in the correct spot In the draft based on their perceived value at the time? The answer to both is absolutely not. Sure, a rumor or two always comes out that team X would have picked them if we hadn’t but those are just rumors and rarely verified, could we have drafted Collier a round or two later? Yes. Meaning we could have had a different and likely better first pick.

2. Performance on the field based on expected performance based on draft position. Collier so far has been a failure. Brooks is an incomplete. Yes, you can blame injuries but that means that the team is not taking that into account when drafting. Is there really any other team that keeps drafting players that lose significant time in Year one or two with early draft picks?

Time will tell. But there is no reason we have to wait to discuss the issues. Hence, a “forum”. The “shut up Pete and JS know what they are doing and we are all idiot fans who don’t know crap” crowd is pretty insufferable here at times.

Regarding point #1, you cannot answer that, and you certainly cannot deride "rumors" that come out about where a player would've gone, because the big boards and mock drafts you're basing the value of a player on are literally formed by rumors about players. That's what media-reported draft stock is. Rumors that come out AFTER the fact would be more accurate, not less, because smokescreening would be less advantageous.

Brooks was going no later than 33. You've got too many people saying it for it to be totally unfounded. Also, here's a take: Brooks is playing better football than Queen. It's an outrageously small sample size, but Brooks so far is better. Queen is raw, lost in coverage, but has made a couple splash plays inbetween. I've corroborated this with tape, PFF, and checking out Queen threads on Ravens forums.

Regarding point 2, sure. If you judge Collier for his full career including an injury-riddled waste of 2019, then he's been a bust. If you apply context and look at his play now where he's healthy, leaner, faster, versatile, and applying pressure at roughly the same rate as 2019 Quinton Jefferson, then the jury is very much so still out, and calling him a bust is a projection based on little concrete evidence.

P.S. The only thing more tiring than people blindly defending the front office are the naysaying crowd that don't listen to reason.

That’s the category I place you in. I haven’t seen you be anything but a “yes” man for the front office. Anything you think they’ve done wrong the last 2-3 years?

Rashaad Penny was a horrible first round pick (not because of the player, per se, but the position), Marquise Blair wasn't the right safety to take but they wanted his tone-setting hits more than anything (although credit for finding him a role he was doing good in, pity about his injury), I wouldn't have let Jadeveon walk, Blair Walsh was a horrific decision all-around, the Tedric Thompson debacle lasted far too long, and the Cowboys game was self-destructively bad gameplanning.

I have plenty of criticisms, I just think that they have to come with nuance and solid reasoning, and that there's more praise than criticism to be made.

I agree on the praise part. Plenty to praise too. I do like the Dunlap trade and the Clooney trade. While I though DK was an obvious pick I applaud the team actually making it. Locking up Wilson long term etc etc. Plenty right.

 

[dopeboy206]

This team makes a lot of reaches.

When it works out, you get a Metcalf, Carson, or Clark.

When it doesn't you get Malik McWhatshisname or LJ Collier.

If you want them to swing for the fences, you have to accept the batting average is going to drop.

We draft for upside not for ability. So we get a lot of guys that got overlooked but we also have problems filling holes because we never know where our best players will come from. We take lots of shots in the dark, we sometimes get a few hits.

The thing is those three weren’t reaches. LJ Collier I believe was.


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