Peteball at it's finest!

[John63]

To make this even easier on you, in the 10 qtrs of the Wladorn offense we have avg 10.8 points per qtr. in the 10 qtrs of the Waldron offense we avg 54 rushing yards a qtr, we have.3 sacks a qtrs, we complete 67% of our passes per qtr. it's simple when we use the Waldron offense which facts have shown we have not been using all season, we are near unstoppable. When we use the PC offense were are very stoppable.

The Waldron offense is the offense run during the entirety of 2021, and any statement otherwise is fanciful $h!t based on nothing other than a one-game sample of heavy pre-snap motion.

That simple.

If you want to prove otherwise, post your own analysis pointing out where they flip the switch.

NO, its not as has already been shown it is not the same do you rad what people post? Th emotion was not the same through the seaosn. I do not need to prove it it has already been proven. That's why I Keep posting that post it proves it done over. deal with it.

 

[John63]

Except literally none of that is true, because the vast majority of what he listed has been present all year.

These are the facts. Seattle was #1 in pre-snap motion in week 1. They then fell to bottom 3 in the league up until the Lions game. The last 2 weeks they were again in the top 5.

You're either fanboing hard for Pete, have a dog$hit memory, or you don't really understand what you're watching. Which is it?

$h!t, huh?

This coming from the guy who would take Derek Carr over Pat Mahomes and judged Frank Clark a bad draft pick because he didn't get a second contract here?

Miss me with that $h!t, dollar store Kearly.

Also, feel free to provide the source for the presnap stats and I'll be happy to take a look.

Wow. Gaslighting to the max.

1) Derek Carr over Patty Mahomes during his early season struggles. I clearly stated "Right now, not longterm."
Derek Carr was clearly playing better over that stretch. Would you like to argue different?

2) They botched the Frank Clark negotiation, letting it drag out too long, they had no choice but to trade him.

3) The fact still remains they went away from pre-snap motion, and that Ram's-like attack for most of the season, despite whatever names you'd like to call me. Then brought it back the final two weeks once eliminated from playoff contention.

This is how it went:

Week 1:
https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/gm-...e-of-pre-snap-motion-fly-sweeps-with-seahawks

https://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-s...ne-waldron-partnership-gets-off-to-fast-start

Among the new elements of Waldron's offense are an increased reliance on fast tempo, more pre-snap motion, how they use running backs in the passing game and using receivers in the run game with fly sweeps.


But by mid-year:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/PFF_Eric/status/1455527080431693836[/tweet]

The reason it doesn’t make sense is because the Seahawks have a new offensive coordinator in Shane Waldron who comes from a Rams system that has utilized pre-snap motion a great deal over the last few years under Sean McVay. And in the Seahawks’ first game of the year against the Colts, the offense used pre-snap motion a lot.

“The first game, you saw so much pre-snap motion, you saw so much creativity. I mean, it was amazing,” Heaps said. “… It was like man, this is a way different look, a way different feel to this offense. And that was one aspect of it that I was really excited about Shane Waldron (bringing to the Seahawks) offensively. We have not seen that happen enough.”

Heaps thinks that if the Seahawks “let Shane Waldron be himself” as a playcaller, then we will see them use pre-snap motion more going forward.
https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1522...se-needs-to-get-back-to-doing-after-bye-week/

That last sentence summarizes it perfectly.

Having to actually have a debate about this is ridiculous. It is clear and obvious.

McVay Ball.

You're legit arguing against facts. This is not an opinion. The Seahawks used more motion in game 1. They went away from it. Late season they went back to it.

THIS^^^ there is your proof deal with it.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Yeah. Find that quote where he said to not do any of that motions. Maybe you have one that also talks about how Pete doesn't like throwing to the middle, or disagrees with Waldron about quick strike passing.

In the meantime, again, there's this one that quotes Pete after the Jags game, the first where Geno had his feet under him and Russ was on the bench.

This is in the article Fade quoted where Heaps talks about needing to run more motions and sweeps. In the article, he pretty plainly references the fact that against the Jags, we did it more. AGAINST THE JAGS. WITH GENO.

The Seahawks employed a fast passing attack that allowed them to really move the ball downfield efficiently.

“We were really quick with the football yesterday,” Carroll said. “I was really fired up about the rhythm that we were able to throw with. (Offensive coordinator) Shane Waldron really put the plan together to give Geno a shot to really function quickly. You saw all of the inside passes that we hit Tyler on and DK caught a couple. The rhythm of that is what made that work.”

“We have to continue to strive to stay in that pocket because that gives us a chance to get the ball out and the pass protection guys don’t have to work as long and we can move the football that way effectively where our guys can catch it,” he said.

Pete in that one presser pretty much shot down all the claims about him

1.not wanting to throw over the middle
2.not wanting to run the offense with tempo
3.being ok with Russ's scrambling play - he prefers the ball come out on time, in rhythm.

Oh, and in this game he miraculously is OK re-integrating sweeps and motions...

Cripes, you want to hinge everything on a game where they played the Jaguars? A team that played particularly bad that day even for them? A day any team could have done anything they want to against them? The only game that Geno Smith won during his playing time? Sure the offense was changed somewhat for him. It had to be. The guy cant make big plays so what choice do you have? He averages 7 yards a throw. They strived to stay in the pocket because Smith is worthless any otherwise. Is a Geno Smith type QB what your looking for? If so, enjoy those 3 to 4 wins a season. The Jaguars game is such a small sample size. What i'm talking about is pretty much the cumulative of the entire season.

Who said anything about 'hinging everything' on that game or Geno.

And nobody said to anoint Geno anything. The point was with Geno under center, the more dynamic, quick passing, middle attacking game shows up, along with motions and sweeps and is gushed over by Pete, the guy whos supposed to hate all of those things sooo much he secretly deletes them from the playbook. And then it disappears again when the guy who has full control of the offense at the line comes back in.

Its just more evidence to the contary

I posted it to show that the notion that half the stuff Pete gets blamed for is just hateful thinking. The entire argument against him and his offensive approach... and now his apparent tanking of the more dynamic aspects of Waldrons playbook, is based on HIM being the one who put the kabash on things after game 1.

If he did that, then why would he bring it back with Geno? and go on and on about how great it was.

If he hates throwing over the middle, then why did he praise it in one of the games we did it best?

If he was basically dictating the offensive strategy after week 1, then why was he repeatedly upset about the strategy being deployed. he called week 1's offensive 'beautiful' and pretty much every offensive strategy between week 1 and the 49ers games Dec 5th that Russ played in - the stretch before and after the injury where we were last in 3rd downs, passing conversions, sustained drives, etc., some version of confusing or essentially not good enough.

Yet when we start running again post Dec 5, and then sprinkle in more of what Waldron can do LATER ON, Pete is ecstatic.

The entire argument is baseless.

So if a worthless QB can set the franchise record for consecutive completed passes, get the ball out everywhere on the field, and avoid the sacks the Jags unleashed on the Bills the following week (a playoff team in the Bills) and beat them... all in only his 3rd start in several years, in an offense he gets few reps in... then why cant Russ?

Pete was deliberate in praising the things that happened in that game that dont typically happen when Russ is under center. Fast passing, getting the ball out. helping the blocking. AND we ran more sweeps in motions.

Pete loved it all. and pointed it out. because he obviously sees it as being how he wants the offense run.

Russ came back, and it all went away.

Jody complained, and we go on a tear that has us looking more like Peteball than any other point in the season.

Lol. Throw the ball all over the field? Geno averaged 5 yards a throw that game for 195 yards. When your throwing nothing but check downs, those completions pile up. Honestly, the Jaguars were their own worst enemy that game because they couldnt get to the spots they knew they had to get to and when they did, they tripped over their own shoelaces and couldnt tackle. If Seattle played any other team that day, they lose.

Here's a quote from Myles Jack of the Jaguars - " Everything they ran, we knew what was going on. They didn't do anything special."

Again, games like Seattle played against Jacksonville can win some games against bottom tier teams, but where does that leave you against the rest of the league? 3 to 5 wins total. The offense that was on the field against the Jaguars wouldnt have beaten the Cardinals sunday.

 

[Maelstrom787]

These are the facts. Seattle was #1 in pre-snap motion in week 1. They then fell to bottom 3 in the league up until the Lions game. The last 2 weeks they were again in the top 5.

You're either fanboing hard for Pete, have a dog$hit memory, or you don't really understand what you're watching. Which is it?

$h!t, huh?

This coming from the guy who would take Derek Carr over Pat Mahomes and judged Frank Clark a bad draft pick because he didn't get a second contract here?

Miss me with that $h!t, dollar store Kearly.

Also, feel free to provide the source for the presnap stats and I'll be happy to take a look.

Wow. Gaslighting to the max.

1) Derek Carr over Patty Mahomes during his early season struggles. I clearly stated "Right now, not longterm."
Derek Carr was clearly playing better over that stretch. Would you like to argue different?

2) They botched the Frank Clark negotiation, letting it drag out too long, they had no choice but to trade him.

3) The fact still remains they went away from pre-snap motion, and that Ram's-like attack for most of the season, despite whatever names you'd like to call me. Then brought it back the final two weeks once eliminated from playoff contention.

This is how it went:

Week 1:
https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/gm-...e-of-pre-snap-motion-fly-sweeps-with-seahawks

https://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-s...ne-waldron-partnership-gets-off-to-fast-start

Among the new elements of Waldron's offense are an increased reliance on fast tempo, more pre-snap motion, how they use running backs in the passing game and using receivers in the run game with fly sweeps.


But by mid-year:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/PFF_Eric/status/1455527080431693836[/tweet]

The reason it doesn’t make sense is because the Seahawks have a new offensive coordinator in Shane Waldron who comes from a Rams system that has utilized pre-snap motion a great deal over the last few years under Sean McVay. And in the Seahawks’ first game of the year against the Colts, the offense used pre-snap motion a lot.

“The first game, you saw so much pre-snap motion, you saw so much creativity. I mean, it was amazing,” Heaps said. “… It was like man, this is a way different look, a way different feel to this offense. And that was one aspect of it that I was really excited about Shane Waldron (bringing to the Seahawks) offensively. We have not seen that happen enough.”

Heaps thinks that if the Seahawks “let Shane Waldron be himself” as a playcaller, then we will see them use pre-snap motion more going forward.
https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1522...se-needs-to-get-back-to-doing-after-bye-week/

That last sentence summarizes it perfectly.

Having to actually have a debate about this is ridiculous. It is clear and obvious.

McVay Ball.

You're legit arguing against facts. This is not an opinion. The Seahawks used more motion in game 1. They went away from it. Late season they went back to it.

THIS^^^ there is your proof deal with it.

Again, based on a one-game sample of heavy pre-snap motion.

Fifth time.

 

[John63]

$h!t, huh?

This coming from the guy who would take Derek Carr over Pat Mahomes and judged Frank Clark a bad draft pick because he didn't get a second contract here?

Miss me with that $h!t, dollar store Kearly.

Also, feel free to provide the source for the presnap stats and I'll be happy to take a look.

Wow. Gaslighting to the max.

1) Derek Carr over Patty Mahomes during his early season struggles. I clearly stated "Right now, not longterm."
Derek Carr was clearly playing better over that stretch. Would you like to argue different?

2) They botched the Frank Clark negotiation, letting it drag out too long, they had no choice but to trade him.

3) The fact still remains they went away from pre-snap motion, and that Ram's-like attack for most of the season, despite whatever names you'd like to call me. Then brought it back the final two weeks once eliminated from playoff contention.

This is how it went:

Week 1:
https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/gm-...e-of-pre-snap-motion-fly-sweeps-with-seahawks

https://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-s...ne-waldron-partnership-gets-off-to-fast-start

Among the new elements of Waldron's offense are an increased reliance on fast tempo, more pre-snap motion, how they use running backs in the passing game and using receivers in the run game with fly sweeps.


But by mid-year:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/PFF_Eric/status/1455527080431693836[/tweet]

The reason it doesn’t make sense is because the Seahawks have a new offensive coordinator in Shane Waldron who comes from a Rams system that has utilized pre-snap motion a great deal over the last few years under Sean McVay. And in the Seahawks’ first game of the year against the Colts, the offense used pre-snap motion a lot.

“The first game, you saw so much pre-snap motion, you saw so much creativity. I mean, it was amazing,” Heaps said. “… It was like man, this is a way different look, a way different feel to this offense. And that was one aspect of it that I was really excited about Shane Waldron (bringing to the Seahawks) offensively. We have not seen that happen enough.”

Heaps thinks that if the Seahawks “let Shane Waldron be himself” as a playcaller, then we will see them use pre-snap motion more going forward.
https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1522...se-needs-to-get-back-to-doing-after-bye-week/

That last sentence summarizes it perfectly.

Having to actually have a debate about this is ridiculous. It is clear and obvious.

McVay Ball.

You're legit arguing against facts. This is not an opinion. The Seahawks used more motion in game 1. They went away from it. Late season they went back to it.

THIS^^^ there is your proof deal with it.

Again, based on a one-game sample of heavy pre-snap motion.

Fifth time.

again that post, the one from Twitter about top motion and bottom w was Nov2nd that would be 8 games in not 1 but a nice try. Heaps article also nov2 that's 8 games in not 1. I guess you missed the "But by mid year": part huh

 

[Maelstrom787]

Wow. Gaslighting to the max.

1) Derek Carr over Patty Mahomes during his early season struggles. I clearly stated "Right now, not longterm."
Derek Carr was clearly playing better over that stretch. Would you like to argue different?

2) They botched the Frank Clark negotiation, letting it drag out too long, they had no choice but to trade him.

3) The fact still remains they went away from pre-snap motion, and that Ram's-like attack for most of the season, despite whatever names you'd like to call me. Then brought it back the final two weeks once eliminated from playoff contention.

This is how it went:

Week 1:
https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/gm-...e-of-pre-snap-motion-fly-sweeps-with-seahawks

https://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-s...ne-waldron-partnership-gets-off-to-fast-start

Among the new elements of Waldron's offense are an increased reliance on fast tempo, more pre-snap motion, how they use running backs in the passing game and using receivers in the run game with fly sweeps.


But by mid-year:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/PFF_Eric/status/1455527080431693836[/tweet]

The reason it doesn’t make sense is because the Seahawks have a new offensive coordinator in Shane Waldron who comes from a Rams system that has utilized pre-snap motion a great deal over the last few years under Sean McVay. And in the Seahawks’ first game of the year against the Colts, the offense used pre-snap motion a lot.

“The first game, you saw so much pre-snap motion, you saw so much creativity. I mean, it was amazing,” Heaps said. “… It was like man, this is a way different look, a way different feel to this offense. And that was one aspect of it that I was really excited about Shane Waldron (bringing to the Seahawks) offensively. We have not seen that happen enough.”

Heaps thinks that if the Seahawks “let Shane Waldron be himself” as a playcaller, then we will see them use pre-snap motion more going forward.
https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1522...se-needs-to-get-back-to-doing-after-bye-week/

That last sentence summarizes it perfectly.

Having to actually have a debate about this is ridiculous. It is clear and obvious.

McVay Ball.

You're legit arguing against facts. This is not an opinion. The Seahawks used more motion in game 1. They went away from it. Late season they went back to it.

THIS^^^ there is your proof deal with it.

Again, based on a one-game sample of heavy pre-snap motion.

Fifth time.

again that post, the one from Twitter about top motion and bottom w was Nov2nd that would be 8 games in not 1 but a nice try. Heaps article also nov2 that's 8 games in not 1. I guess you missed the "But by mid year": part huh

That's not what I mean, Johnathan. I cannot believe I actually have to explain this.

Game 1 featured heavy motion. You therefore think that the offense is supposed to be all motion all the time based off a single game sample.

 

[hoxrox]

what case your wrong period I keep reposting it because this makes it open and shut. We have not been using the Waldron offense all season only 2.5 games and those games were awesome. sorry but the facts that are shown are irrefutable. So I will continue to repost it till you and your brethren get it. watch caefully

Except the premise is false. Go back and watch the Cards game. How much presnap motion was actually used?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAEXRFKUsCQ

The reality is that your hero didn’t entirely poop the bed in these last couple of games, like he has all season long. In fact, he almost did, giving up two turnovers and basically 14 points to the Cards.

Luckily Penny saved his ass. Penny (and the o-line) were the true heroes down the stretch. Ironic, isn’t it?

 

[John63]

THIS^^^ there is your proof deal with it.

Again, based on a one-game sample of heavy pre-snap motion.

Fifth time.

again that post, the one from Twitter about top motion and bottom w was Nov2nd that would be 8 games in not 1 but a nice try. Heaps article also nov2 that's 8 games in not 1. I guess you missed the "But by mid year": part huh

That's not what I mean, Johnathan. I cannot believe I actually have to explain this.

Game 1 featured heavy motion. You therefore think that the offense is supposed to be all motion all the time based off a single game sample.

and again you are not connecting the dots, I will try again

game 1 motion we win and move the ball well.(well really half of game 1)

games 2-8 we don't use much if any motion we struggle to win. pretty simple. Games 9-15 intermittent motion midland results. games 16-17 lots of motion easy win lot of points. The let said in what Heaps says who is part of the Hawks and knows way more than you and I do.

So no they did not use Wladrons offense all season, they reverted, and if they have learned their lesson then great we are set. IF not well, we will find out. SO sorry the facts show it clear as day.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Go Hawks?

 

[Maelstrom787]

Again, based on a one-game sample of heavy pre-snap motion.

Fifth time.

again that post, the one from Twitter about top motion and bottom w was Nov2nd that would be 8 games in not 1 but a nice try. Heaps article also nov2 that's 8 games in not 1. I guess you missed the "But by mid year": part huh

That's not what I mean, Johnathan. I cannot believe I actually have to explain this.

Game 1 featured heavy motion. You therefore think that the offense is supposed to be all motion all the time based off a single game sample.

and again you are not connecting the dots, I will try again

game 1 motion we win and move the ball well.(well really half of game 1)

games 2-8 we don't use much if any motion we struggle to win. pretty simple. Games 9-15 intermittent motion midland results. games 16-17 lots of motion easy win lot of points. The let said in what Heaps says who is part of the Hawks and knows way more than you and I do.

So no they did not use Wladrons offense all season, they reverted, and if they have learned their lesson then great we are set. IF not well, we will find out. SO sorry the facts show it clear as day.

Correlation is not causation, and please provide motion statistics for the last two games of the season.

 

[John63]

what case your wrong period I keep reposting it because this makes it open and shut. We have not been using the Waldron offense all season only 2.5 games and those games were awesome. sorry but the facts that are shown are irrefutable. So I will continue to repost it till you and your brethren get it. watch caefully

Except the premise is false. Go back and watch the Cards game. How much presnap motion was actually used?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAEXRFKUsCQ

The reality is that your hero didn’t entirely poop the bed in these last couple of games, like he has all season long. In fact, he almost did, giving up two turnovers and basically 14 points to the Cards.

Luckily Penny saved his ass. Penny (and the o-line) were the true heroes down the stretch. Ironic, isn’t it?

ahh once again incorrect I have relooked at the game a lot and there was a lot of motion way more than games 2-15, there were a lot of other concepts that we have not done before or very little of that is. So again the facts are the facts we were not running the Wlasron offense all season but when we did it worked well. AS to your attempted dig, I am glad you are happy and it makes your day.


so as to all season long let's look at that all season, not counting last couple of games so that is 15 games

games he played 1-15 of which he played 12
2639 yards, 18 tds, 5 ints, 98 passer rating, 3.6 tfd/int Sorry that is not pooping the bed. as to the rest of your post and yes he had 2 TOs in cards game etc etc he also had 4 tds so lets play your what aboutism game

Let's see Penny scored 1 td that leaves us with 31 points, guess what we still win. And that not even counting the other TD that Everett dropped.
So amazing how that works.

 

[John63]

Go Hawks?

THIS^^^^

 

[Maelstrom787]

what case your wrong period I keep reposting it because this makes it open and shut. We have not been using the Waldron offense all season only 2.5 games and those games were awesome. sorry but the facts that are shown are irrefutable. So I will continue to repost it till you and your brethren get it. watch caefully

Except the premise is false. Go back and watch the Cards game. How much presnap motion was actually used?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAEXRFKUsCQ

The reality is that your hero didn’t entirely poop the bed in these last couple of games, like he has all season long. In fact, he almost did, giving up two turnovers and basically 14 points to the Cards.

Luckily Penny saved his ass. Penny (and the o-line) were the true heroes down the stretch. Ironic, isn’t it?

ahh once again incorrect I have relooked at the game a lot and there was a lot of motion way more than games 2-15, there were a lot of other concepts that we have not done before or very little of that is. So again the facts are the facts we were not running the Wlasron offense all season but when we did it worked well. AS to your attempted dig, I am glad you are happy and it makes your day.


so as to all season long let's look at that all season, not counting last couple of games so that is 15 games

games he played 1-15 of which he played 12
2639 yards, 18 tds, 5 ints, 98 passer rating, 3.6 tfd/int Sorry that is not pooping the bed. as to the rest of your post and yes he had 2 TOs in cards game etc etc he also had 4 tds so lets play your what aboutism game

Let's see Penny scored 1 td that leaves us with 31 points, guess what we still win. And that not even counting the other TD that Everett dropped.
So amazing how that works.

Are you in some sort of competition with yourself to see how severely you can misspell Waldron?

Find it hard to believe that you can parse the guys entire offensive philosophy, but not his last name.

C'mon. Proofread a bit.

 

[John63]

again that post, the one from Twitter about top motion and bottom w was Nov2nd that would be 8 games in not 1 but a nice try. Heaps article also nov2 that's 8 games in not 1. I guess you missed the "But by mid year": part huh

That's not what I mean, Johnathan. I cannot believe I actually have to explain this.

Game 1 featured heavy motion. You therefore think that the offense is supposed to be all motion all the time based off a single game sample.

and again you are not connecting the dots, I will try again

game 1 motion we win and move the ball well.(well really half of game 1)

games 2-8 we don't use much if any motion we struggle to win. pretty simple. Games 9-15 intermittent motion midland results. games 16-17 lots of motion easy win lot of points. The let said in what Heaps says who is part of the Hawks and knows way more than you and I do.

So no they did not use Wladrons offense all season, they reverted, and if they have learned their lesson then great we are set. IF not well, we will find out. SO sorry the facts show it clear as day.

Correlation is not causation, and please provide motion statistics for the last two games of the season.

some times correlation is causation. As to motion/movement rates you can find them, I charted them but I doubt you would like what I charted.

 

[Maelstrom787]

That's not what I mean, Johnathan. I cannot believe I actually have to explain this.

Game 1 featured heavy motion. You therefore think that the offense is supposed to be all motion all the time based off a single game sample.

and again you are not connecting the dots, I will try again

game 1 motion we win and move the ball well.(well really half of game 1)

games 2-8 we don't use much if any motion we struggle to win. pretty simple. Games 9-15 intermittent motion midland results. games 16-17 lots of motion easy win lot of points. The let said in what Heaps says who is part of the Hawks and knows way more than you and I do.

So no they did not use Wladrons offense all season, they reverted, and if they have learned their lesson then great we are set. IF not well, we will find out. SO sorry the facts show it clear as day.

Correlation is not causation, and please provide motion statistics for the last two games of the season.

some times correlation is causation. As to motion/movement rates you can find them, I charted them but I doubt you would like what I charted.

Please, by all means. Provide your charting.

That's exactly what this forum needs.

 

[John63]

and again you are not connecting the dots, I will try again

game 1 motion we win and move the ball well.(well really half of game 1)

games 2-8 we don't use much if any motion we struggle to win. pretty simple. Games 9-15 intermittent motion midland results. games 16-17 lots of motion easy win lot of points. The let said in what Heaps says who is part of the Hawks and knows way more than you and I do.

So no they did not use Wladrons offense all season, they reverted, and if they have learned their lesson then great we are set. IF not well, we will find out. SO sorry the facts show it clear as day.

Correlation is not causation, and please provide motion statistics for the last two games of the season.

some times correlation is causation. As to motion/movement rates you can find them, I charted them but I doubt you would like what I charted.

Please, by all means. Provide your charting.

That's exactly what this forum needs.

Okay, the last 2 games I charted 55% of the time there was motion or movement. I had charted most of the games this year. So I compared the last 2 games to the first 2 games after Wilson came back( I did not use any of the first 8 games as we already know we were bottom 5). In the first 2 games where Wilson came back there was only 24% motion/movement. That said I also noticed something else in the last 2 games that when I went back and looked at the games prior I did not see that much of. A lot more bunch formation with the Wrs in the last 2 games than games prior. It also appears they moved DK a lot.

So look in an effort to put this to bed and realizing the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle let say
they struggled to incorporate Waldron's offense with what PC and Wilson wanted and the last 2 games were the final product of what could be.

 

[massari]

$h!t, huh?

This coming from the guy who would take Derek Carr over Pat Mahomes and judged Frank Clark a bad draft pick because he didn't get a second contract here?

Miss me with that $h!t, dollar store Kearly.

Also, feel free to provide the source for the presnap stats and I'll be happy to take a look.

Wow. Gaslighting to the max.

1) Derek Carr over Patty Mahomes during his early season struggles. I clearly stated "Right now, not longterm."
Derek Carr was clearly playing better over that stretch. Would you like to argue different?

2) They botched the Frank Clark negotiation, letting it drag out too long, they had no choice but to trade him.

3) The fact still remains they went away from pre-snap motion, and that Ram's-like attack for most of the season, despite whatever names you'd like to call me. Then brought it back the final two weeks once eliminated from playoff contention.

This is how it went:

Week 1:
https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/gm-...e-of-pre-snap-motion-fly-sweeps-with-seahawks

https://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-s...ne-waldron-partnership-gets-off-to-fast-start

Among the new elements of Waldron's offense are an increased reliance on fast tempo, more pre-snap motion, how they use running backs in the passing game and using receivers in the run game with fly sweeps.


But by mid-year:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/PFF_Eric/status/1455527080431693836[/tweet]

The reason it doesn’t make sense is because the Seahawks have a new offensive coordinator in Shane Waldron who comes from a Rams system that has utilized pre-snap motion a great deal over the last few years under Sean McVay. And in the Seahawks’ first game of the year against the Colts, the offense used pre-snap motion a lot.

“The first game, you saw so much pre-snap motion, you saw so much creativity. I mean, it was amazing,” Heaps said. “… It was like man, this is a way different look, a way different feel to this offense. And that was one aspect of it that I was really excited about Shane Waldron (bringing to the Seahawks) offensively. We have not seen that happen enough.”

Heaps thinks that if the Seahawks “let Shane Waldron be himself” as a playcaller, then we will see them use pre-snap motion more going forward.
https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1522...se-needs-to-get-back-to-doing-after-bye-week/

That last sentence summarizes it perfectly.

Having to actually have a debate about this is ridiculous. It is clear and obvious.

McVay Ball.

You're legit arguing against facts. This is not an opinion. The Seahawks used more motion in game 1. They went away from it. Late season they went back to it.

McVay ball? You do see that the Rams are not part of the top 5 teams in the Tweet you listed there, right?

That aside, your entire argument rests upon a conspiracy held up by a one game sample size of heavy pre-snap motion, and falls especially flat when you're attempting to directly correlate pre-snap motion with offensive success as if only archaic offenses do not utilize motion - Tampa Bay being an example of a team that has used it fairly sparingly prior to this year, and early in the season even.

Notice how they switched it up, though. Evolution. Interesting. Almost as if teams and philosophies aren't static.

I can't imagine equating pre-snap motion with complexity, either. The McVay attack you're referring to was renowned for being SIMPLE yet effective. What a false equivalency.

You argue for complexity, yet also argue for fairly direct adherence to a specific set of offensive concepts. You fail to see the hypocrisy in this.

You're just angry they didn't do exactly what you thought they would. You then equate a lack of pre-snap motion with a lack of success, as if there's a strong correlation.

PS: Frank Clark has 4.5 sacks this year. You'd be absolutely $h!t your pants all over the board if Seattle paid him that contract for that type of production. They did exactly what anyone else would consider ideal - get his best years, ship him out for a haul. If you're honestly still painting that as a loss for Seattle, you should probably hang out with Niner fans.

Yeah dude you lost this argument and resorted to insults because of it. Just chalk it up as a loss and move on. You were wrong. They did seem to change a little the past couple of games.

Yeah. Find that quote where he said to not do any of that motions. Maybe you have one that also talks about how Pete doesn't like throwing to the middle, or disagrees with Waldron about quick strike passing.

In the meantime, again, there's this one that quotes Pete after the Jags game, the first where Geno had his feet under him and Russ was on the bench.

This is in the article Fade quoted where Heaps talks about needing to run more motions and sweeps. In the article, he pretty plainly references the fact that against the Jags, we did it more. AGAINST THE JAGS. WITH GENO.

The Seahawks employed a fast passing attack that allowed them to really move the ball downfield efficiently.

“We were really quick with the football yesterday,” Carroll said. “I was really fired up about the rhythm that we were able to throw with. (Offensive coordinator) Shane Waldron really put the plan together to give Geno a shot to really function quickly. You saw all of the inside passes that we hit Tyler on and DK caught a couple. The rhythm of that is what made that work.”

“We have to continue to strive to stay in that pocket because that gives us a chance to get the ball out and the pass protection guys don’t have to work as long and we can move the football that way effectively where our guys can catch it,” he said.

Pete in that one presser pretty much shot down all the claims about him

1.not wanting to throw over the middle
2.not wanting to run the offense with tempo
3.being ok with Russ's scrambling play - he prefers the ball come out on time, in rhythm.

Oh, and in this game he miraculously is OK re-integrating sweeps and motions...

Cripes, you want to hinge everything on a game where they played the Jaguars? A team that played particularly bad that day even for them? A day any team could have done anything they want to against them? The only game that Geno Smith won during his playing time? Sure the offense was changed somewhat for him. It had to be. The guy cant make big plays so what choice do you have? He averages 7 yards a throw. They strived to stay in the pocket because Smith is worthless any otherwise. Is a Geno Smith type QB what your looking for? If so, enjoy those 3 to 4 wins a season. The Jaguars game is such a small sample size. What i'm talking about is pretty much the cumulative of the entire season.

Who said anything about 'hinging everything' on that game or Geno.

And nobody said to anoint Geno anything. The point was with Geno under center, the more dynamic, quick passing, middle attacking game shows up, along with motions and sweeps and is gushed over by Pete, the guy whos supposed to hate all of those things sooo much he secretly deletes them from the playbook. And then it disappears again when the guy who has full control of the offense at the line comes back in.

Its just more evidence to the contary

I posted it to show that the notion that half the stuff Pete gets blamed for is just hateful thinking. The entire argument against him and his offensive approach... and now his apparent tanking of the more dynamic aspects of Waldrons playbook, is based on HIM being the one who put the kabash on things after game 1.

If he did that, then why would he bring it back with Geno? and go on and on about how great it was.

If he hates throwing over the middle, then why did he praise it in one of the games we did it best?

If he was basically dictating the offensive strategy after week 1, then why was he repeatedly upset about the strategy being deployed. he called week 1's offensive 'beautiful' and pretty much every offensive strategy between week 1 and the 49ers games Dec 5th that Russ played in - the stretch before and after the injury where we were last in 3rd downs, passing conversions, sustained drives, etc., some version of confusing or essentially not good enough.

Yet when we start running again post Dec 5, and then sprinkle in more of what Waldron can do LATER ON, Pete is ecstatic.

The entire argument is baseless.

The lack of not just football knowledge but basic satistical awareness on this site is ridiculous.

Pete advocates running more last year and gets blasted because Russ cant cook. But we win those games. We won all but one when he stopped the passing nonsense last year... until the playoff loss, when we again decided to pass considerably more than we ran... despite the run game working very effectively against the Rams, and the passing game going 11 for 27 with a pick 6.

Then this year, Pete again advocates for more running and everybody complains because we put a good number of points with Russ and his good ol Play Action long balls... but then ignore the fact that we stagnate for half a game, are bottom of the league passing to convert for firsts (we were near last passing on 3rd down), and abandon a run game that ended up finishing 3rd in the league in terms of YPC and were 6th in YPC without Penny going nutts over the last few games.

So it wasnt execution in terms of the running game, nor was it the running game being hot cold. We had one tough game on the ground against the WFT and in that game we chose to only run 3 times per qtr. The rest of the time some one OBVIOUSLY NOT NAMED PETE CARROL decided to not run the ball.

He gets blasted for wanting to do what actually was the only thing that brought us wins this year. And then when we actually do what his strategy mandates, HE'S the one that was holding us back ??? WTF?

The hate here is something to behold. But honestly its good to see because if somebody can twist whatever blatant truth that exists to suit their view, it belies their true motivation.

These are the game splits, run/pass for the season that Russ played. All of the wins but one (2nd game against SF) came as a result of sticking with the run over the pass.

There's no magic here. the offense doesnt sink or sail on jetsweeps and motions. Those things help, but this offense runs best when it literally RUNS and passes off of the run. NOT the other way around. And its never been any different. The most crystal point of truth in it is our success during our SUperbowl runs, and the lesson learned on even that one faithful play when we chose pass over run, that has dictated the path of this franchise since.

i know its not as exciting and hurts the QB's chances of winning an MVP, but the stats dont lie.

Wk 1 won 49%
Wk 2 lost 65% , averaged 4.3 ypc
We 3 lost 65% , averaged 5.8 ypc
Wk 4 won 48%
Wk 5 lost 58% avgd 3.7 ypc
Wk 10 lost 72% avgd 4.6 ypc. Ran 11 times
Wk 11 lost 61% avgd 4.5 ypc
Wk 12 lost 73% avgd 2.8 ypc. ran 12 times
Wk 13 won 60% - The only game we won this year passing for more than 50%
Wk 14 won 49%
Wk 15 lost 64% , avgd 4.2 ypc, ran 19 times
Wk 16 lost 54% , avgd 7.1 ypc
Wk 17 won 42%
Wk 18 won 46%

Peteball (limiting passing and pounding the rock) got us the wins we got this year and saved the season last year.

And had we stuck to it in the playoffs last year, who knows how far we go.

Teams generally run when they are winning. Teams generally pass when they are losing, but It's not run vs. pass argument, it's predictability vs. deception.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/DannyBKelly/status/1438009269501190144[/tweet]

Not all runs and passes are the same. Not all opponents are the same. You have to be a step ahead. Continuously running inside zone into loaded boxes isn't going to win a championship. And constantly throwing deep against teams in a 2 High shell isn't going to win a championship either.

Boiling it down to that is missing the point entirely.

Last season in the pregame meetings Fox did before one of the 49ers-Seahawks games, they showed film to one of the 49ers defenders, and they asked him to predict the play based on alignment pre-snap. He got it correct 80% of the time.

Deception is good.

Excpet this year that was fault. We were winning and chose to pass. We played the GB Packers to a draw into the 4th qtr and ran 11 times the whole game. We ran effectively against literally every team.

We were never down to a degree we had to throw ourselves back into the game. Often we were winning and lost leads because we continued to throw, and as has been proven, are league worst passing on 3rd down and were league worst in plays per possession.

Yet, when we ran, we held leads, our TOP was better, our defense was better, and we won.

So yes, bad teams have to throw a lot. WE CHOSE to throw a lot. It was nothing other than a choice.

Wk 2, we lost because we 'kept our foot on the gas', passed to futility and handed the Titans the ball enought imes to tie and win.

The next weekl, we basicall played the Vikings to a draw and then stopped running in the 2nd half depsite the running game working at a 5 ypc clip.

The niners game - run was working, pass wasnt.

The Rams game run was working.

The Pittsburgh game - the run ws the only thing that gave us a chance.

Saints - we ran too much but still had an average that was 3.8 i think - so not failing.

Jax - ran

GB - ran 11 times and it was all that was woking - and we didnt fall behind until the last 12 minutes of the game - and didnt get to throw much after that because we coouldnt convert a first down.

Literally every game BUT the WFT game was effective on the ground and the run game was there. And we left it.

But keep on ignoring the truth AND HOW the games we lost this year played out.

League worst passing for 3rd downs.

League worst in avg time of offensive possession.

League low in avg plays per possession.

But top 3 in YPC at 5.0

But inexplicably in the lower half of the league in attempts.

And for all the excuses that we could have won had Russ not been injured. Explain to me how it is that if his finger injury lingered, that somebody (Not Pete) chose to, rather than run the ball to mitigate against his accuracy being off or however he was impacted by as a result of the injury, we CHOSE TO RELY ON HIS GRIP ON THE BALL AND MAYBE HIS REACTION TO PROTECT HIS HAND.

That makes less than zero ssnse.

Nor does fabricating some nonsensical narrative that Pete would have advocated going into every week saying secretly to Shane -- hey, its obvious Russ is still a little off, but lets not run too much this game, K?

Coming off of his injury, we passed 72% of the time, 61% of the time, and 73% of the time. We didnt trail significantly in any of those games.

Week one we run mostly and win. Week 2 the run game was killing it too, but we then choose instead to throw 65% of the time and let the Titans back in.

The lack of not just football knowledge but basic satistical awareness on this site is ridiculous.

Pete advocates running more last year and gets blasted because Russ cant cook. But we win those games. We won all but one when he stopped the passing nonsense last year... until the playoff loss, when we again decided to pass considerably more than we ran... despite the run game working very effectively against the Rams, and the passing game going 11 for 27 with a pick 6.

Then this year, Pete again advocates for more running and everybody complains because we put a good number of points with Russ and his good ol Play Action long balls... but then ignore the fact that we stagnate for half a game, are bottom of the league passing to convert for firsts (we were near last passing on 3rd down), and abandon a run game that ended up finishing 3rd in the league in terms of YPC and were 6th in YPC without Penny going nutts over the last few games.

So it wasnt execution in terms of the running game, nor was it the running game being hot cold. We had one tough game on the ground against the WFT and in that game we chose to only run 3 times per qtr. The rest of the time some one OBVIOUSLY NOT NAMED PETE CARROL decided to not run the ball.

He gets blasted for wanting to do what actually was the only thing that brought us wins this year. And then when we actually do what his strategy mandates, HE'S the one that was holding us back ??? WTF?

The hate here is something to behold. But honestly its good to see because if somebody can twist whatever blatant truth that exists to suit their view, it belies their true motivation.

These are the game splits, run/pass for the season that Russ played. All of the wins but one (2nd game against SF) came as a result of sticking with the run over the pass.

There's no magic here. the offense doesnt sink or sail on jetsweeps and motions. Those things help, but this offense runs best when it literally RUNS and passes off of the run. NOT the other way around. And its never been any different. The most crystal point of truth in it is our success during our SUperbowl runs, and the lesson learned on even that one faithful play when we chose pass over run, that has dictated the path of this franchise since.

i know its not as exciting and hurts the QB's chances of winning an MVP, but the stats dont lie.

Wk 1 won 49%
Wk 2 lost 65% , averaged 4.3 ypc
We 3 lost 65% , averaged 5.8 ypc
Wk 4 won 48%
Wk 5 lost 58% avgd 3.7 ypc
Wk 10 lost 72% avgd 4.6 ypc. Ran 11 times
Wk 11 lost 61% avgd 4.5 ypc
Wk 12 lost 73% avgd 2.8 ypc. ran 12 times
Wk 13 won 60% - The only game we won this year passing for more than 50%
Wk 14 won 49%
Wk 15 lost 64% , avgd 4.2 ypc, ran 19 times
Wk 16 lost 54% , avgd 7.1 ypc
Wk 17 won 42%
Wk 18 won 46%

Peteball (limiting passing and pounding the rock) got us the wins we got this year and saved the season last year.

And had we stuck to it in the playoffs last year, who knows how far we go.

Teams generally run when they are winning. Teams generally pass when they are losing, but It's not run vs. pass argument, it's predictability vs. deception.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/DannyBKelly/status/1438009269501190144[/tweet]

Not all runs and passes are the same. Not all opponents are the same. You have to be a step ahead. Continuously running inside zone into loaded boxes isn't going to win a championship. And constantly throwing deep against teams in a 2 High shell isn't going to win a championship either.

Boiling it down to that is missing the point entirely.

Last season in the pregame meetings Fox did before one of the 49ers-Seahawks games, they showed film to one of the 49ers defenders, and they asked him to predict the play based on alignment pre-snap. He got it correct 80% of the time.

Deception is good.

Excpet this year that was fault. We were winning and chose to pass. We played the GB Packers to a draw into the 4th qtr and ran 11 times the whole game. We ran effectively against literally every team.

We were never down to a degree we had to throw ourselves back into the game. Often we were winning and lost leads because we continued to throw, and as has been proven, are league worst passing on 3rd down and were league worst in plays per possession.

Yet, when we ran, we held leads, our TOP was better, our defense was better, and we won.

So yes, bad teams have to throw a lot. WE CHOSE to throw a lot. It was nothing other than a choice.

Wk 2, we lost because we 'kept our foot on the gas', passed to futility and handed the Titans the ball enought imes to tie and win.

The next weekl, we basicall played the Vikings to a draw and then stopped running in the 2nd half depsite the running game working at a 5 ypc clip.

The niners game - run was working, pass wasnt.

The Rams game run was working.

The Pittsburgh game - the run ws the only thing that gave us a chance.

Saints - we ran too much but still had an average that was 3.8 i think - so not failing.

Jax - ran

GB - ran 11 times and it was all that was woking - and we didnt fall behind until the last 12 minutes of the game - and didnt get to throw much after that because we coouldnt convert a first down.

Literally every game BUT the WFT game was effective on the ground and the run game was there. And we left it.

But keep on ignoring the truth AND HOW the games we lost this year played out.

League worst passing for 3rd downs.

League worst in avg time of offensive possession.

League low in avg plays per possession.

But top 3 in YPC at 5.0

But inexplicably in the lower half of the league in attempts.

And for all the excuses that we could have won had Russ not been injured. Explain to me how it is that if his finger injury lingered, that somebody (Not Pete) chose to, rather than run the ball to mitigate against his accuracy being off or however he was impacted by as a result of the injury, we CHOSE TO RELY ON HIS GRIP ON THE BALL AND MAYBE HIS REACTION TO PROTECT HIS HAND.

That makes less than zero ssnse.

Nor does fabricating some nonsensical narrative that Pete would have advocated going into every week saying secretly to Shane -- hey, its obvious Russ is still a little off, but lets not run too much this game, K?

Coming off of his injury, we passed 72% of the time, 61% of the time, and 73% of the time. We didnt trail significantly in any of those games.

Week one we run mostly and win. Week 2 the run game was killing it too, but we then choose instead to throw 65% of the time and let the Titans back in.

I think the part that is missing is they were NOT running the ball well on 3rd down. not till Penny came back. I think this is key


LTH

 

[Maelstrom787]

FFS massari why

 

[keasley45]

I think the part that is missing is they were NOT running the ball well on 3rd down. not till Penny came back. I think this is key


LTH

I agree, Penny was huge, but the shift in mindset and gameplan was pretty obvious as well.

Scripting off of that predictable passing game and trying to run from it is very different than scripting a running attack from the outset as a hammer that relies on the pass as a scalpel.

You cant run the ball well situationally when the pattern that you've established throwing the ball can be read 80% of the time. And scheming a run game to beat a team is different than just calling runs off of the pass. We ran off of the pass when we lost, often almost as an alternate for the pass. when you continually do that, after a certain point, the entire offense is predictable. Once defenses have seen all of the routes we're throwing in a game - usually by the end of the 2nd qtr or beginning of the 3rd, our pass game is crippled, and the runs become predictable as well. Watching the games from my couch, i can call the plays probably 70 % of the time, run vs pass.

Our passing game with Russ has been the same and on tape for defenses to read for 2+ years now. Its why the way to stop us now is the same as it was a year and a half ago. there is zero variety. Waldron obviously has plays to go to but we dont.

And that predictability has been stuck for no other reason than its likely what Russ knows and its what he's comfortable to him when defenses play him straight up. When they back off a bit, he's a different player, his confidence builds and everything starts clicking.

Russ is a PA guy. he needs the threat of the run to be successful. When you neutralize that threat from the outset by only running 11, 12, 16 times per game, and instead put our offense in a position where Russ needs to play like Brady, you are literally handing the decoder key to the defense to beat us. Its not his game. After that, the entire game is predictable. Run. Pass. because we rarely shift mid stream to go away from the pass approach. And not changing once we go down that road has been a characteristic for 2 years plus now. Before Schotty, if the passing game wasnt working, we'd dial up a healthy dose of runs, commit to it, and then Russ would often hit a big play off of it and the dynamic of the game would shift again.

Go back and watch the games. Its obvious within the first 2 series what our M.O. was, run v pass. When it was pass, it stayed pass and we were eventually bottled up running and passing situationally.

I'd be interested to see the run pass splits by qtr for the seasons for the last 7 games, vs the first 7 that Russ played.

 

[John63]

I agree, Penny was huge, but the shift in mindset and gameplan was pretty obvious as well.

Scripting off of that predictable passing game and trying to run from it is very different than scripting a running attack from the outset as a hammer that relies on the pass as a scalpel.

You cant run the ball well situationally when the pattern that you've established throwing the ball can be read 80% of the time. And scheming a run game to beat a team is different than just calling runs off of the pass. We ran off of the pass when we lost, often almost as an alternate for the pass. when you continually do that, after a certain point, the entire offense is predictable. Once defenses have seen all of the routes we're throwing in a game - usually by the end of the 2nd qtr or beginning of the 3rd, our pass game is crippled, and the runs become predictable as well. Watching the games from my couch, i can call the plays probably 70 % of the time, run vs pass.

Our passing game with Russ has been the same and on tape for defenses to read for 2+ years now. Its why the way to stop us now is the same as it was a year and a half ago. there is zero variety. Waldron obviously has plays to go to but we dont.

And that predictability has been stuck for no other reason than its likely what Russ knows and its what he's comfortable to him when defenses play him straight up. When they back off a bit, he's a different player, his confidence builds and everything starts clicking.

Russ is a PA guy. he needs the threat of the run to be successful. When you neutralize that threat from the outset by only running 11, 12, 16 times per game, and instead put our offense in a position where Russ needs to play like Brady, you are literally handing the decoder key to the defense to beat us. Its not his game. After that, the entire game is predictable. Run. Pass. because we rarely shift mid stream to go away from the pass approach. And not changing once we go down that road has been a characteristic for 2 years plus now. Before Schotty, if the passing game wasnt working, we'd dial up a healthy dose of runs, commit to it, and then Russ would often hit a big play off of it and the dynamic of the game would shift again.

Go back and watch the games. Its obvious within the first 2 series what our M.O. was, run v pass. When it was pass, it stayed pass and we were eventually bottled up running and passing situationally.

I'd be interested to see the run pass splits by qtr for the seasons for the last 7 games, vs the first 7 that Russ played.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said. However, with regards to this "Russ is a PA guy. he needs the threat of the run to be successful. When you neutralize that threat from the outset by only running 11, 12, 16 times per game, and instead put our offense in a position where Russ needs to play like Brady, you are literally handing the decoder key to the defense to beat us." I don't think it is a matter of Russ cant play like Brady it's more a matter that our passing system was limiting it, it was predictable we heard that over and over again it was posted here, one of our opponents were able to predict the play over 80% of the time. However, when we changed the tempo and had movement/motion they were not. So I think what Waldron in the last 2 games did was a few things:

1. run the ball but not the old go up to the line snap with under 5 and show where we will run. instead, the motion, snap early with no telling on what was happening.
2. the motion and movement of the wrs/te made it harder for the defense to know who was running what routes
3. the bunching of receivers also made it harder for defenders to know who was running what routes.
4. running even if not getting much help
5. and putting Russ on the move more, Hass made a point against the lions that all the movement by Russ was also helping the run game.

I do agree Russ is not as good at what Brady does as Brady is, I also agree Brady is not as good as what Russ does Russ. I just think the system has some to do with it. That said if the last 2 games are any indication we may have found a nice meld of what Waldron wants, what PC wants, and what Wilson wants.