Real culprit of our offense?

[LTH]

Why has this issue not been corrected by Pete? If Russ is not executing the plays properly, as a coach it's Pete's responsibility to correct the issue. He hasn't done so. One could surmise that Russ is playing the way that Pete has directed him to do so based off that. This is both a Pete and Russ issue. Not just a Russ issue as you are trying to make it out to be. . I don't believe Russ is dunce enough to go against the desire of his coach if the coach sits and talks to him about it. If Pete hasn't done that, then he's really not doing the job he's paid to do. It's Pete's responsibility of how the team performs overall and at 3-6 its performance is subpar.

If he wants to be a head coach of the team, then coach the team. Have the hard conversations with his key players. Week in week out it's the same old stuff, therefore there isn't any change. That's on Pete and the coaches.

THIS^^^

Yes it is Pete's responsibility to fix this situation no question about that. but what we don't know is how he is approaching this situation. he is NOT saying... It could be that he has sat down with Russ several times and Russ is not listening to him ... It could be that after this season he might decide to trade Russ because he can't work it out... There is a HUGE misconception on this board that Carroll is not approaching things appropriately... we just don't know at this point but if you look at it from Carroll's point of view he has every reason to want this situation to work out and the way it looks is that he gave the LRC scenario a chance to work and it's not working... I think the other HUGE misconception of this board is that Carroll is micromanaging this team to it's detriment... there is no evidence to suggest that in fact the evidence suggest the complete opposite...


LTH

Fix 1
Pete built a system around Russ to address his issues and like every other team, had an OC working with his QB to address things like MAKING SIMPLE READS.

Fix 2
Pete brought in a new OC who was harder nosed to get to Russ and the result at the end of season 3 was Russ not being able to solve cover 2...

Fix 3
Pete brings in OC 3, cosigned by Russ, because he seems to come from a system that specializes in smoke and mirrors and disguising basic routes with a myriad different looks. Why? Because if your 9 yr vet qb still can't read defenses and everybody in the league now knows the limited routes he like to throw... make them look different to help the reads become easier. In other words, eliminate the presnap work the qb has to do by dictating what to the defense so the reads are less complex.

Pete has taken every approach a coach can short of blasting the face of the franchise in a way that would make Russ look like he can't do basic QBing stuff.

Fix 4...
Move on and let Russ spins his wares elsewhere and try to geta qb in here that can do good, if not great things because if you look at the tape, we need more ofnthe regular stuff eight now than the spectacular.

I guess the question is, does Russ have issues reading D coverage or is he just being stubborn and wanting to hit the big play? I don't know the answer to that question... It's my opinion that he absolutely wants to hit the big play at times when he should check down but I'm unsure if there is an issue with him reading D coverage... according to Carroll thats not the case but then Carroll is not going to thriow his QB under the bus...



what is the difference from your perspective?


LTH

 

[keasley45]

THIS^^^

Yes it is Pete's responsibility to fix this situation no question about that. but what we don't know is how he is approaching this situation. he is NOT saying... It could be that he has sat down with Russ several times and Russ is not listening to him ... It could be that after this season he might decide to trade Russ because he can't work it out... There is a HUGE misconception on this board that Carroll is not approaching things appropriately... we just don't know at this point but if you look at it from Carroll's point of view he has every reason to want this situation to work out and the way it looks is that he gave the LRC scenario a chance to work and it's not working... I think the other HUGE misconception of this board is that Carroll is micromanaging this team to it's detriment... there is no evidence to suggest that in fact the evidence suggest the complete opposite...


LTH

Fix 1
Pete built a system around Russ to address his issues and like every other team, had an OC working with his QB to address things like MAKING SIMPLE READS.

Fix 2
Pete brought in a new OC who was harder nosed to get to Russ and the result at the end of season 3 was Russ not being able to solve cover 2...

Fix 3
Pete brings in OC 3, cosigned by Russ, because he seems to come from a system that specializes in smoke and mirrors and disguising basic routes with a myriad different looks. Why? Because if your 9 yr vet qb still can't read defenses and everybody in the league now knows the limited routes he like to throw... make them look different to help the reads become easier. In other words, eliminate the presnap work the qb has to do by dictating what to the defense so the reads are less complex.

Pete has taken every approach a coach can short of blasting the face of the franchise in a way that would make Russ look like he can't do basic QBing stuff.

Fix 4...
Move on and let Russ spins his wares elsewhere and try to geta qb in here that can do good, if not great things because if you look at the tape, we need more ofnthe regular stuff eight now than the spectacular.

I guess the question is, does Russ have issues reading D coverage or is he just being stubborn and wanting to hit the big play? I don't know the answer to that question... It's my opinion that he absolutely wants to hit the big play at times when he should check down but I'm unsure if there is an issue with him reading D coverage... according to Carroll thats not the case but then Carroll is not going to thriow his QB under the bus...



what is the difference from your perspective?


LTH

Well, when he was asked about why he chose to hit the plays he did in OT against the Titans, his response was

Paraphrasing:
that the game moves really fast and i made a decision.

When you look at that play, the read was simple. Beyond simple. Simpler than many ofnthe plays that Kurt Warner has broken down on Russ. AND it was a play where he had protection. He had time... and threw a jump ball, way before he had to. Then he did it again on the next play. Again, not a bang bang play. He had protection... and he jumped on the wrong route.

Now you can say the spectacular ball is his preference... but when you go back and look at his body of work, he's made the same miss read and thrown into coverage at random places on the field on plays where he had an equally open option that he could have easily seen... but he didn't. And he does it again and again. Multiple times in every game. Multiple times against GB.

Christ, Kurt Warner put together a 26 minute video critiquing his play JUST IN THE RAMS playoff loss, and it wall the same error over and over again.

In Russ's own words he's basically saying the game moves really fast and he makes his decision [quickly]

Which when you look at both plays against the Titans in OT, Multiple plays throughout the 9ers game. GB, the Rams game... its every game. He doesn't make the presnap read and when the plays are unfolding, he often picks the obvious presnap route and just goes there. That's what happened on the missed DK TD in GB.

The body of evidence shows that he prefers the big play AND he struggles to read coverage.

AND I don't think he likes the long ball just because it's a splash play. I think he likes the accolades that come along with them, but I think e also likes that they're also long developing. What happens on long passes is similar to what happens on his scramble plays. He has time on a deep drop,, Seconds go by where the wr is running his route and Russ can see it unfold and hit him with some separation.

THATS THE OPPOSITE of anticipatory passing where you are throwing it to the guy that will be open based on coverages. That play requires the qb to predict movement. Read zones and when players will hit them, etc

Russ throws balls when he can simply react to a simple coverage like with the long ball and scramble drill.

 

[toffee]

Some claim that Russ couldn't see the middle of field due to his height limitations, anyone follow Cardinals? They have a QB shorter than ours, did they have the same problem???

That was actually me just asking the question because I didn't know if that was an issue.


LTH

If the shorty in Arizona didn't have problem hitting short middle routes, our Wilson's height is not the limiting factor. Can someone dig up some stats?

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[toffee]

Yes it is Pete's responsibility to fix this situation no question about that. but what we don't know is how he is approaching this situation. he is NOT saying... It could be that he has sat down with Russ several times and Russ is not listening to him ... It could be that after this season he might decide to trade Russ because he can't work it out... There is a HUGE misconception on this board that Carroll is not approaching things appropriately... we just don't know at this point but if you look at it from Carroll's point of view he has every reason to want this situation to work out and the way it looks is that he gave the LRC scenario a chance to work and it's not working... I think the other HUGE misconception of this board is that Carroll is micromanaging this team to it's detriment... there is no evidence to suggest that in fact the evidence suggest the complete opposite...


LTH

Fix 1
Pete built a system around Russ to address his issues and like every other team, had an OC working with his QB to address things like MAKING SIMPLE READS.

Fix 2
Pete brought in a new OC who was harder nosed to get to Russ and the result at the end of season 3 was Russ not being able to solve cover 2...

Fix 3
Pete brings in OC 3, cosigned by Russ, because he seems to come from a system that specializes in smoke and mirrors and disguising basic routes with a myriad different looks. Why? Because if your 9 yr vet qb still can't read defenses and everybody in the league now knows the limited routes he like to throw... make them look different to help the reads become easier. In other words, eliminate the presnap work the qb has to do by dictating what to the defense so the reads are less complex.

Pete has taken every approach a coach can short of blasting the face of the franchise in a way that would make Russ look like he can't do basic QBing stuff.

Fix 4...
Move on and let Russ spins his wares elsewhere and try to geta qb in here that can do good, if not great things because if you look at the tape, we need more ofnthe regular stuff eight now than the spectacular.

I guess the question is, does Russ have issues reading D coverage or is he just being stubborn and wanting to hit the big play? I don't know the answer to that question... It's my opinion that he absolutely wants to hit the big play at times when he should check down but I'm unsure if there is an issue with him reading D coverage... according to Carroll thats not the case but then Carroll is not going to thriow his QB under the bus...



what is the difference from your perspective?


LTH

Well, when he was asked about why he chose to hit the plays he did in OT against the Titans, his response was

Paraphrasing:
that the game moves really fast and i made a decision.

When you look at that play, the read was simple. Beyond simple. Simpler than many ofnthe plays that Kurt Warner has broken down on Russ. AND it was a play where he had protection. He had time... and threw a jump ball, way before he had to. Then he did it again on the next play. Again, not a bang bang play. He had protection... and he jumped on the wrong route.

Now you can say the spectacular ball is his preference... but when you go back and look at his body of work, he's made the same miss read and thrown into coverage at random places on the field on plays where he had an equally open option that he could have easily seen... but he didn't. And he does it again and again. Multiple times in every game. Multiple times against GB.

Christ, Kurt Warner put together a 26 minute video critiquing his play JUST IN THE RAMS playoff loss, and it wall the same error over and over again.

In Russ's own words he's basically saying the game moves really fast and he makes his decision [quickly]

Which when you look at both plays against the Titans in OT, Multiple plays throughout the 9ers game. GB, the Rams game... its every game. He doesn't make the presnap read and when the plays are unfolding, he often picks the obvious presnap route and just goes there. That's what happened on the missed DK TD in GB.

The body of evidence shows that he prefers the big play AND he struggles to read coverage.

AND I don't think he likes the long ball just because it's a splash play. I think he likes the accolades that come along with them, but I think e also likes that they're also long developing. What happens on long passes is similar to what happens on his scramble plays. He has time on a deep drop,, Seconds go by where the wr is running his route and Russ can see it unfold and hit him with some separation.

THATS THE OPPOSITE of anticipatory passing where you are throwing it to the guy that will be open based on coverages. That play requires the qb to predict movement. Read zones and when players will hit them, etc

Russ throws balls when he can simply react to a simple coverage like with the long ball and scramble drill.

anticipatory passing, Joe Montana used to be pretty good with those, part of coach Walsh's WCO.

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[keasley45]

Montana, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Manning, Mahomes, Prescott, Rodgers

Those guys were and are so hard to beat because you have to have a strategy to cover EVERY receiver they have, because they will find the open guy within the scheme. Russ finds the open guy most often on a single presnap determination and if that's not there, he panics and double clutches or leaves the pocket. So defenses cover that guy and the next obvious and can bring extra pressure or roll coverages where they want because we don't use the whole field... because Russ doesn't have the tools to go there from a purely mental schematic sense. Physically, he can throw the ball anywhere.

 

[keasley45]

Kurt Warner, who was another guy who could just eat up defenses in his mind before the ball was snapped has said it and I believe it 2000%. We will never reach another championship with Russ if he can't fix his ability to make the right read.

Kurts done it. He's seen it all and when he looks at game tape of Russel, he sees a guy who's struggling to do the simple things. He's reviewed Russ in depth a few times, and it's almost embarrassingly bad for a $30 million QB.

I'm not an NFL player but I played a lot of ball on offense and defense and I CAN SEE IT.

Shoot, I remember the first game I went to a Seahawks game,, I was so completely excited and had actually bought an authentic Wilson jersey before the game. Inrmeember when we got to our seats I was surprised at how critical the season ticket guys were of Russ. They went on and on about how he's great on the run or in certain situations but doesn't get the vball out... they claimed they saw the game differently from their seats at the far end of the stadium and joked that they lost their voices every game shouting 'throw the F'ing ball'. This was before I had all22. But it was the first time that I saw Russ's game differently. That was 2015. He hasn't gotten any better since.

 

[OrangeGravy]

THIS^^^

Yes it is Pete's responsibility to fix this situation no question about that. but what we don't know is how he is approaching this situation. he is NOT saying... It could be that he has sat down with Russ several times and Russ is not listening to him ... It could be that after this season he might decide to trade Russ because he can't work it out... There is a HUGE misconception on this board that Carroll is not approaching things appropriately... we just don't know at this point but if you look at it from Carroll's point of view he has every reason to want this situation to work out and the way it looks is that he gave the LRC scenario a chance to work and it's not working... I think the other HUGE misconception of this board is that Carroll is micromanaging this team to it's detriment... there is no evidence to suggest that in fact the evidence suggest the complete opposite...


LTH

Fix 1
Pete built a system around Russ to address his issues and like every other team, had an OC working with his QB to address things like MAKING SIMPLE READS.

Fix 2
Pete brought in a new OC who was harder nosed to get to Russ and the result at the end of season 3 was Russ not being able to solve cover 2...

Fix 3
Pete brings in OC 3, cosigned by Russ, because he seems to come from a system that specializes in smoke and mirrors and disguising basic routes with a myriad different looks. Why? Because if your 9 yr vet qb still can't read defenses and everybody in the league now knows the limited routes he like to throw... make them look different to help the reads become easier. In other words, eliminate the presnap work the qb has to do by dictating what to the defense so the reads are less complex.

Pete has taken every approach a coach can short of blasting the face of the franchise in a way that would make Russ look like he can't do basic QBing stuff.

Fix 4...
Move on and let Russ spins his wares elsewhere and try to geta qb in here that can do good, if not great things because if you look at the tape, we need more ofnthe regular stuff eight now than the spectacular.

I guess the question is, does Russ have issues reading D coverage or is he just being stubborn and wanting to hit the big play? I don't know the answer to that question... It's my opinion that he absolutely wants to hit the big play at times when he should check down but I'm unsure if there is an issue with him reading D coverage... according to Carroll thats not the case but then Carroll is not going to thriow his QB under the bus...



what is the difference from your perspective?


LTH

Heaps's response to a caller's comment about Russell needing to take what's open in the middle of the field was, " Russell isn't comfortable throwing the ball there. If it's a tight window over the middle, he's probably gonna hold the ball. He's elite on the outside and deep". That's the paraphrased version of his response. You could tell he wasn't happy having to talk about it. He gets a bit defensive, understandably. It's his guy, but it can't be passed of as an anomaly anymore. Now the talking point will be, you have to do a better job of putting a plan together around his strengths. So the argument is whether or not it's possible to be successful on offense avoiding a third of the field in the passing game. I say it's not without relying heavily on the run game. Others think it's possible with increases presnap motion and misdirection. I don't think that's enough when the defense knows you won't throw it between the numbers to begin with and you aren't willing to commit to the run.

Whether the problem is Russell being poor at reads or just unwilling to test the middle, it's probably both. He's probably aware he isn't great making those reads, so even if something is there he just ignores it. I can't imagine being fully capable of making reads and the throws, but purposefully refusing to take those plays over often times double coverage deep shots. That would be willful negligence

 

[OrangeGravy]

Some claim that Russ couldn't see the middle of field due to his height limitations, anyone follow Cardinals? They have a QB shorter than ours, did they have the same problem???

That was actually me just asking the question because I didn't know if that was an issue.


LTH

If the shorty in Arizona didn't have problem hitting short middle routes, our Wilson's height is not the limiting factor. Can someone dig up some stats?

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It's only a limiting factor in that it may cause a lack of confidence in that area and that is individual. It's not the reason someone is poor at it. It might be why he prefers to retreat in the pocket vs step up, but still these are all individual reactions to certain variables. They won't ever be blanket reasons

 

[toffee]

Some claim that Russ couldn't see the middle of field due to his height limitations, anyone follow Cardinals? They have a QB shorter than ours, did they have the same problem???

That was actually me just asking the question because I didn't know if that was an issue.


LTH

If the shorty in Arizona didn't have problem hitting short middle routes, our Wilson's height is not the limiting factor. Can someone dig up some stats?

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

It's only a limiting factor in that it may cause a lack of confidence in that area and that is individual. It's not the reason someone is poor at it. It might be why he prefers to retreat in the pocket vs step up, but still these are all individual reactions to certain variables. They won't ever be blanket reasons

Never had the honor of conversing with coach Bill Walsh, did hear him talk about QB, he spoke about poise, foot work, accuracy, anticipation. Montana never had the strongest arm, Walsh's words, but Joe had supreme poise and excellent foot work.

I feel like our Russ is more physically gifted than Joe, so totally don't get his reluctance to attack the middle. Gotta be a mental thing.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

 

[keasley45]

Some claim that Russ couldn't see the middle of field due to his height limitations, anyone follow Cardinals? They have a QB shorter than ours, did they have the same problem???

That was actually me just asking the question because I didn't know if that was an issue.


LTH

If the shorty in Arizona didn't have problem hitting short middle routes, our Wilson's height is not the limiting factor. Can someone dig up some stats?

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

It's only a limiting factor in that it may cause a lack of confidence in that area and that is individual. It's not the reason someone is poor at it. It might be why he prefers to retreat in the pocket vs step up, but still these are all individual reactions to certain variables. They won't ever be blanket reasons

Exactly. And I'd add that a shorter qb like Brees and maybe Murray (haven't seen enough of him) who is good at anticipating coverages and understanding his receivers routes within those coverages is going to naturally feel more confident throwing to a spot slightly obscured by his line than one who isn't good at reading and anticipating defenses.

I remember highlights from Saints games from cameras in the defenses endzone that would show a wr running a cross and the ball just appearing from over the blocking linemans heads and dropping right in the receivers hands.

You don't often see Russ do this unless it's around the endzone. One of the very few times I remember it last year was the last interception he threw against Arizona for our first loss. His read was waaayyyyy wrong, he couldn't see his wr and tossed right to Arizona.