Since when do refs get to fix players mistakes?

[jamescasey1124]

And that is why the argument is null and void. Refs didnt do anything because the play was still live. No one single player can deem a plays end unless they lay there and wait to be touched down.or clearly show they have given up. He didnt not. No whistle...no touch...no give up. Just another technicality refs can use to sway power in a game.

You know how I know its wrong...not that you care but go back and watch the play again. The claimed to given himself up reciever Josh Reynolds looks at bobby pick up the ball after he set it down and clearly looks distrot like he f*** up big time. He had no idea what he was doing. Fumble.

I think the refs f’d up as well. They both did. Two wrongs don’t make a right

Agreed. But hey we won.

If we're going to use reactions as "how I know" then McVay sprinting out there immediately to argue that he gave himself up should be a big tip-off that that was the direction he gave the players.

Ok or covering up a mistake.

 

[Natethegreat]

Fatty Knuckles you agreed with my account of what happened so can you show me in the rule book that placing the ball on the ground is giving yourself up? Reynolds could have given himself up. All he had to do was stay on the ground till the whistle blew.

He did not do that.

He was up immediately and then placed the ball on the ground with no whistle blown.

By the rule book that is a fumble regardless of what his intent was.

 

[vonstout]

Would you accept what Desean did as giving himself up if they were up 1 score with a minute to go and downing it to run out the clock would be beneficial?[/quote]
If you want to quibble about a terrible comparison, go for it. It doesn't remotely match what happened today and neither does your second hypothetical. However, if DeSean put the ball on the ground, not dropped it, and then turned to either lineup or huddle up, not sauntering around in the endzone... So basically the opposite of everything you're trying to make stick, then probably.[/quote]

What he’s saying is valid. Did u see the Falcons lose this year because Gurley scored a TD when they were down 1 or 2 points instead of staying out of the end zone so they couldrun down the clock and kick the FGfor the win? That was his point. It’s a valid comment.

 

[Welshers]

There is an agenda from the NFL against the Seahawks. The refs are told to make favorable calls against them every game. Make no mistake about it

 

[JPatera76]

Fatty Knuckles you agreed with my account of what happened so can you show me in the rule book that placing the ball on the ground is giving yourself up? Reynolds could have given himself up. All he had to do was stay on the ground till the whistle blew.

He did not do that.

He was up immediately and then placed the ball on the ground with no whistle blown.

By the rule book that is a fumble regardless of what his intent was.

This.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

Would you accept what Desean did as giving himself up if they were up 1 score with a minute to go and downing it to run out the clock would be beneficial?

If you want to quibble about a terrible comparison, go for it. It doesn't remotely match what happened today and neither does your second hypothetical. However, if DeSean put the ball on the ground, not dropped it, and then turned to either lineup or huddle up, not sauntering around in the endzone... So basically the opposite of everything you're trying to make stick, then probably.[/quote]

What he’s saying is valid. Did u see the Falcons lose this year because Gurley scored a TD when they were down 1 or 2 points instead of staying out of the end zone so they couldrun down the clock and kick the FGfor the win? That was his point. It’s a valid comment.[/quote]

Not in using the Desean clip it isn't.

 

[pinksheets]

Would you accept what Desean did as giving himself up if they were up 1 score with a minute to go and downing it to run out the clock would be beneficial?

If you want to quibble about a terrible comparison, go for it. It doesn't remotely match what happened today and neither does your second hypothetical. However, if DeSean put the ball on the ground, not dropped it, and then turned to either lineup or huddle up, not sauntering around in the endzone... So basically the opposite of everything you're trying to make stick, then probably.

What he’s saying is valid. Did u see the Falcons lose this year because Gurley scored a TD when they were down 1 or 2 points instead of staying out of the end zone so they couldrun down the clock and kick the FGfor the win? That was his point. It’s a valid comment.[/quote]

Not in using the Desean clip it isn't.[/quote]
Your point was that putting the ball on the ground intentionally counts as giving yourself up. I showed another example and you introduced a handful of new variables about which the refs have to make assumptions. None of which is in the rulebook.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

I'll repost. You must have missed my agreeing with you.

I agree. Can you show me where in the rulebook that means the ball was dead?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/10_Rule7_BallInPlay_DeadBall_Scrimm.pdf

Can you relate your argument to the NFL Rulebook?

I'm looking for more clarification because that states that sliding is the only way to give up (other than qb kneel) but there was a language change that added going headfirst also.

Except he didn't go head first. He went to the ground making the catch, got up off the ground, and set the ball on the ground. Fumble.

Except it wasn't. He made no attempt to advance the ball. It was pretty clear to me in real time, to McVay who clearly instructed them to hurry up like that and to the refs on further discussion. I'm more than willing to say I was wrong if the NFL clarifies this as the wrong ruling but this is the closest comment to a gray area I've seen so far and its only about as dark as the Ram's unis.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

Would you accept what Desean did as giving himself up if they were up 1 score with a minute to go and downing it to run out the clock would be beneficial?

If you want to quibble about a terrible comparison, go for it. It doesn't remotely match what happened today and neither does your second hypothetical. However, if DeSean put the ball on the ground, not dropped it, and then turned to either lineup or huddle up, not sauntering around in the endzone... So basically the opposite of everything you're trying to make stick, then probably.

What he’s saying is valid. Did u see the Falcons lose this year because Gurley scored a TD when they were down 1 or 2 points instead of staying out of the end zone so they couldrun down the clock and kick the FGfor the win? That was his point. It’s a valid comment.

Not in using the Desean clip it isn't.[/quote]
Your point was that putting the ball on the ground intentionally counts as giving yourself up. I showed another example and you introduced a handful of new variables about which the refs have to make assumptions. None of which is in the rulebook.[/quote]

And again, regardless of the situational changes, what Desean did was nothing whatsoever like what happened today.

 

[Natethegreat]

Fattyknuckles, how exactly did Reynolds give himself up? Explain it to me. What action gave himself up?

 

[JPatera76]

Would you accept what Desean did as giving himself up if they were up 1 score with a minute to go and downing it to run out the clock would be beneficial?

If you want to quibble about a terrible comparison, go for it. It doesn't remotely match what happened today and neither does your second hypothetical. However, if DeSean put the ball on the ground, not dropped it, and then turned to either lineup or huddle up, not sauntering around in the endzone... So basically the opposite of everything you're trying to make stick, then probably.

What he’s saying is valid. Did u see the Falcons lose this year because Gurley scored a TD when they were down 1 or 2 points instead of staying out of the end zone so they couldrun down the clock and kick the FGfor the win? That was his point. It’s a valid comment.

Not in using the Desean clip it isn't.[/quote]
Your point was that putting the ball on the ground intentionally counts as giving yourself up. I showed another example and you introduced a handful of new variables about which the refs have to make assumptions. None of which is in the rulebook.[/quote]
Fact is, his posts themselves don’t argue anything other to just constantly disagree. Then spin the response to disagree again.

It was a fumble by the rule, and most people agree, most don’t give a damn. In the end this has become a continuous circle of needless arguing of people saying the same shit, mutiple people saying it was and 1 person saying it wasnt, but wont actually prove how it wasn’t after they’ve been shown/told numerous I Times how it was.


Soo in the end who the hell cares now, this kid won’t admit he’s wrong or agree to disagree. He’s gained at least 70% of his post count off this.. well now useless and kind of back and forth childish thread.

 

[Seanhawk]

I'll repost. You must have missed my agreeing with you.



Can you relate your argument to the NFL Rulebook?

I'm looking for more clarification because that states that sliding is the only way to give up (other than qb kneel) but there was a language change that added going headfirst also.

Except he didn't go head first. He went to the ground making the catch, got up off the ground, and set the ball on the ground. Fumble.

Except it wasn't. He made no attempt to advance the ball. It was pretty clear to me in real time, to McVay who clearly instructed them to hurry up like that and to the refs on further discussion. I'm more than willing to say I was wrong if the NFL clarifies this as the wrong ruling but this is the closest comment to a gray area I've seen so far and its only about as dark as the Ram's unis.

What in the hell? Then why are you looking into there being a language change to include going headfirst? It seems you're doing that to support your argument, when that's not what happened...AT ALL.

 

[pinksheets]

Would you accept what Desean did as giving himself up if they were up 1 score with a minute to go and downing it to run out the clock would be beneficial?

If you want to quibble about a terrible comparison, go for it. It doesn't remotely match what happened today and neither does your second hypothetical. However, if DeSean put the ball on the ground, not dropped it, and then turned to either lineup or huddle up, not sauntering around in the endzone... So basically the opposite of everything you're trying to make stick, then probably.

What he’s saying is valid. Did u see the Falcons lose this year because Gurley scored a TD when they were down 1 or 2 points instead of staying out of the end zone so they couldrun down the clock and kick the FGfor the win? That was his point. It’s a valid comment.

Not in using the Desean clip it isn't.

Your point was that putting the ball on the ground intentionally counts as giving yourself up. I showed another example and you introduced a handful of new variables about which the refs have to make assumptions. None of which is in the rulebook.[/quote]

And again, regardless of the situational changes, what Desean did was nothing whatsoever like what happened today.[/quote]

Yep, there are differences, absolutely, but if "putting the ball on the ground intentionally" is giving yourself up, as you argued, it should fit. That's why you then said that putting the ball on the ground intentionally is only giving yourself up if uh... It makes sense situationally and you run over AFTER to line up - so giving yourself up even is defined retroactively by your next actions.

Again, none of that is anywhere in the rulebook. I get your point, that it seems like Reynolds intended to give himself up and then adding commentary not based on nfl rules to bolster that, but it doesn't show how he gave himself up based on the established rule.

 

[CPHawk]

Because there is no such rule. He set that ball down because he thought he was down by contact. The language of the rule doesn't state setting the ball down while standing up constitutes giving yourself up. If they did call that rule correctly, they need to either change the rule or change how it's written. You can't have officials out there interpreting a player's intent on any call let alone a play where the ball is loose. I guarantee they had a laugh about it after the game. He knows he got away with one there.

No one was anywhere near him, why would he possibly think he was touched?

Nobody can convince me that a player would take the chance of putting the ball on the ground on purpose (when there is no rule stating that this action constitutes giving themselves up) and leaving it to the refs to make the call. Not one coach in Football would be preaching that "give up" move. In fact, they would be coaching against that very thing because it's way too risky. He thought he was down. When things are moving that fast and you go to the ground you can't always tell if you've been touched or not. I've seen players get up to advance the ball thinking they weren't touched even when they were. This is the first time I've ever seen someone stand up and set the ball down other than Plaxico spiking the ball in the field of play, which was a fumble. According to this play that should've been a dead ball.

There's zero chance he thought he was down. No one was near enough to touch him and even if he thought he might have been touched (which I just don't see how he could), what player wouldn't get up and try to get more yards? You use that same example of not realizing you've been touched. The only reason you wouldn't advance the ball is if you knew without a doubt that you were down, or you were giving yourself up. He didn't spike it, or drop it, or flip it, he deliberately set it down and went to line up. It was the right call.

There's zero reason for him to give himself up. He gets 10 more yards if he runs with the ball. He clearly thought he was down, either due to contact or because of a mental error and forgetting in the pros you aren't down until you are touched. Either way, he didn't give himself up in the middle of the field.

 

[pinksheets]

Fattyknuckles, how exactly did Reynolds give himself up? Explain it to me. What action gave himself up?

This is the only question that matters, and I don't think there's any discussion if this can't be clearly answered by Fattyknuckles.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

I'm looking for more clarification because that states that sliding is the only way to give up (other than qb kneel) but there was a language change that added going headfirst also.

Except he didn't go head first. He went to the ground making the catch, got up off the ground, and set the ball on the ground. Fumble.

Except it wasn't. He made no attempt to advance the ball. It was pretty clear to me in real time, to McVay who clearly instructed them to hurry up like that and to the refs on further discussion. I'm more than willing to say I was wrong if the NFL clarifies this as the wrong ruling but this is the closest comment to a gray area I've seen so far and its only about as dark as the Ram's unis.

What in the hell? Then why are you looking into there being a language change to include going headfirst? It seems you're doing that to support your argument, when that's not what happened...AT ALL.

I'm not saying it supports my argument. I'm saying that I believe they changed it a few years ago so I am looking for it to see what language changes are in there.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

If you want to quibble about a terrible comparison, go for it. It doesn't remotely match what happened today and neither does your second hypothetical. However, if DeSean put the ball on the ground, not dropped it, and then turned to either lineup or huddle up, not sauntering around in the endzone... So basically the opposite of everything you're trying to make stick, then probably.

What he’s saying is valid. Did u see the Falcons lose this year because Gurley scored a TD when they were down 1 or 2 points instead of staying out of the end zone so they couldrun down the clock and kick the FGfor the win? That was his point. It’s a valid comment.

Not in using the Desean clip it isn't.

Your point was that putting the ball on the ground intentionally counts as giving yourself up. I showed another example and you introduced a handful of new variables about which the refs have to make assumptions. None of which is in the rulebook.

And again, regardless of the situational changes, what Desean did was nothing whatsoever like what happened today.[/quote]

Yep, there are differences, absolutely, but if "putting the ball on the ground intentionally" is giving yourself up, as you argued, it should fit. That's why you then said that putting the ball on the ground intentionally is only giving yourself up if uh... It makes sense situationally and you run over AFTER to line up - so giving yourself up even is defined retroactively by your next actions.

Again, none of that is anywhere in the rulebook. I get your point, that it seems like Reynolds intended to give himself up and then adding commentary not based on nfl rules to bolster that, but it doesn't show how he gave himself up based on the established rule.[/quote]

The refs and the announcers thought differently so what are they looking at?

 

[FattyKnuckle]

Fattyknuckles, how exactly did Reynolds give himself up? Explain it to me. What action gave himself up?

This is the only question that matters, and I don't think there's any discussion if this can't be clearly answered by Fattyknuckles.

I've already stated that numerous times.

 

[JGreen79]

This is Desean Jackson giving himself up - should have been called down at the 1.

Weird, it doesn't look like he is running to line up for the next play because time was of the essence. Almost as if this isn't a remotely good comparison at all.

The question isn't intent, its what the actual rules are. Yes, he either thought he was touched or the play had been called dead but neither actually happened and he fumbled the ball. Intentional or not. Putting the ball on the ground is not giving yourself up per the rules as far as I am aware.

One could argue that by setting the ball down he made no effort to advance. I agree with the call being within the spirit of the rule, but if that is accepted you also should be able to argue that dropping it at the one like Jackson and Metcalf falls in the same category.

 

[irfuben32]

he did not kneel down or slide so he did not give himself up

just like the kick returner who caught the ball in the endzone and tossed the ball to the ref without taking a knee

that was also incorrectly overturned (should have been a fumble)