US Mens Soccer

[Uncle Si]

There needs to be more than fight in the squad. It needs technical ability and tactical awareness. That is what is letting them down. Three very poor goals conceded against Denmark and tonight missing a good 3 relatively easy chances.

This is where the Bradley vs. Klinsmann debate begins and ends.

Bradley knew his squad's technical deficiencies, and tactically managed accordingly to some success. Klinsmann also knows his squad's technical deficiencies, yet is trying hard to fix it.

Which is better? That's a soccer philosophical question that IMO there is no right answer to, because in the end results are the only thing that matters in sports. Doesn't matter how you got there.

I admire Jurgen's effort to try and create a more beautiful brand of technical soccer from the ground up, just not sure he'll see it come to fruition with the USMNT. Creating the foundation for what he wants takes generations.

Jurgen's results, however, are no different than Bradleys. He got them to the same place, really. The major difference is Jurgen is trying to change the approach to soccer in this nation, not just at the Senior level, and this is why I admire him. He has a grand plan on how the sport is instructed from the ground level through the academies and youth level to the National team. This is a replication (with adjustments) to what he went through in Germany.

What US soccer fans need to start embracing is that winning the World Cup is really, really hard. I feel like Jurgen's been placed under a lot of scrutiny for his approach (no BS attitude towards his players), and his results are being picked apart. He's not losing to Cuba or Panama or something.

We may never, ever win a World Cup. Only 7 nations ever have. What I like about Jurgen is he is trying to build an identity that will challenge for that in any cycle. Round of 16, round of 8, possibly final 4. We all expect to be through the group stages each World Cup. That has not changed until Jurgen. I just think he is building more hope that the Round of 8 is something we can achieve as well, with consistency. While programs like Chile, Honduras, Nigeria, Cameroon, Portugal have some Golden generations, its saying something that the US has made it out of the group stages in 4 of the 7 World Cups they have qualified in since 1990. Not many nations have that sort of success.

Jurgen himself may never see the process come to a title. However, the approach to the game has already changed significantly since he took over.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

There needs to be more than fight in the squad. It needs technical ability and tactical awareness. That is what is letting them down. Three very poor goals conceded against Denmark and tonight missing a good 3 relatively easy chances.

This is where the Bradley vs. Klinsmann debate begins and ends.

Bradley knew his squad's technical deficiencies, and tactically managed accordingly to some success. Klinsmann also knows his squad's technical deficiencies, yet is trying hard to fix it.

Which is better? That's a soccer philosophical question that IMO there is no right answer to, because in the end results are the only thing that matters in sports. Doesn't matter how you got there.

I admire Jurgen's effort to try and create a more beautiful brand of technical soccer from the ground up, just not sure he'll see it come to fruition with the USMNT. Creating the foundation for what he wants takes generations.

Jurgen's results, however, are no different than Bradleys. He got them to the same place, really. The major difference is Jurgen is trying to change the approach to soccer in this nation, not just at the Senior level, and this is why I admire him. He has a grand plan on how the sport is instructed from the ground level through the academies and youth level to the National team. This is a replication (with adjustments) to what he went through in Germany. .

We just said the same thing.

 

[Uncle Si]

Kind of.

You stated that there was no right answer to which is better. I disagree. Both got the same results (a point many American fans ignore because they believe Jurgen should have us winning the World Cup already, which is asanine). One is changing the structure of soccer in the US along the way while the other coached "American"

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Kind of.

You stated that there was no right answer to which is better. I disagree. Both got the same results (a point many American fans ignore because they believe Jurgen should have us winning the World Cup already, which is asanine). One is changing the structure of soccer in the US along the way while the other coached "American"

Well, the jury's still out as to whether Jurgen's being successful changing that structure..........thus my point.

Every soccer fan in the US would love us to play a more attractive possession technical style of soccer, but as of now Jurgen hasn't been any more successful than Bradley's rudimentary direct style of play.

Personally other than Jurgen kinda being an arrogant ass with how he degrades the MLS and his players who play in it, I like what he's doing with the USMNT program. Maybe the results aren't there yet, but he gives me hope and excitement that we may some day get there.

 

[Uncle Si]

Kind of.

You stated that there was no right answer to which is better. I disagree. Both got the same results (a point many American fans ignore because they believe Jurgen should have us winning the World Cup already, which is asanine). One is changing the structure of soccer in the US along the way while the other coached "American"

Well, the jury's still out as to whether Jurgen's being successful changing that structure..........thus my point.

Every soccer fan in the US would love us to play a more attractive possession technical style of soccer, but as of now Jurgen hasn't been any more successful than Bradley's rudimentary direct style of play.

Personally other than Jurgen kinda being an arrogant ass with how he degrades the MLS and his players who play in it, I like what he's doing with the USMNT program. Maybe the results aren't there yet, but he gives me hope and excitement that we may some day get there.

I guess I'm trying to look at this as a bigger puzzle.The structure IS changing. The jury is out in whether it will be successful? How do you gauge it? Has it been successful for say the Dutch? (when did they win their last World Cup?) or the English? Belgium, Argentina, France, Italy? How about Brazil? Point is, groundwork changes take years to show results, and will always be called into question when a generation doesn't perform.

Jurgen's structure is building a platform for the identification of players across a nation literally 40x bigger than most European ones. It then details how to integrate the same training mentality across the DA youth ranks and into the ODP/National team structure. How can anyone judge whether something so massive in scale is "working" in 4 years? The fact that he even has a plan is far more encouraging than his predecessors, who merely coached one level and begged players to play overseas.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about Jurgen's system, and that it revolves around "possession technical"... like the way the Spanish, Brazilians play? On a national team scale, he wants the team to model the Dutch more than anyone (the Germans model the Dutch versions of the 433 with more direct play and defensive support behind them. The Spanish, through Cruyff (perhaps the biggest sole contributor to modern soccer tactics we have), used possession to support defensively. Very different philosophies that are meant to hide weaknesses and showcase strengths in the type of players you have). Yes, he also wants his players to be more technical. That's not a "style"... it is a prerequisite for being a "good" player.

His current USMNT is getting the same results as any of his predecessors, and I would disagree that they look the same. The team that played Switzerland was dynamic, aggressive, creative and had they been more skilled, would have been up 3/4-0 against one of the top 15 teams in the world, in Europe (the US track record playing in Europe is abysmal). Sure, the team has lacked defensive stability late in games. Unlike his predecessors, Jurgen has opened his camp up to so many different players, of all ages and ability. He's letting them all have their shots. Of course their will be inconsistency. The idea is there, and that is what I love seeing. It's beyond being "American" (as if playing aggressive is somehow exclusive to our team's identity).. it's trying to elevate the actual soccer being played. Imagine playing "American" but with very gifted technical players who understand the tactics of matches like chess masters... you'd have Germany and the Dutch. This is his model. He's not changing who the team is, he is changing how they approach their development. I've met lots of players who have gone to Europe to ply their trade. They all say the same thing.. they were unprepared.

The issue I see is people are now demanding more because he's Jurgen Klinsmann. I love that he looks at the MLS for what it is (and it deserves its fair share of criticism). The man has more soccer credentials than anyone this nation has ever produced. I mean no one in this nation is even close. If he thinks the MLS is a lower level (which it is) and wants his best players to challenge themselves in the World's best leagues (why settle?) than what's wrong with that? It is arrogant. He's also right. I think people confuse Jurgen's target audience at times. He is not denigrating the MLS as a landing spot for his good players. He wants his BEST players to challenge themselves. He also wants his young players to experience it. (again, I think you would be amazed at how many young American soccer players are overseas right now). Michael Bradley, our best player at the moment and our best attacking option, plays for Toronto. Quickly look where the CAM's for the world's top 15 national teams all play. Bradley made his choice, for his reasons. He also did it after playing in Europe. Jurgen is sending a message to the next generation not to settle for tier 3 before trying tier 1. Go out, take chances, experience, possibly fail. The MLS is always here.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The issue I see is people are now demanding more because he's Jurgen Klinsmann. I love that he looks at the MLS for what it is (and it deserves its fair share of criticism). The man has more soccer credentials than anyone this nation has ever produced. I mean no one in this nation is even close. If he thinks the MLS is a lower level (which it is) and wants his best players to challenge themselves in the World's best leagues (why settle?) than what's wrong with that? It is arrogant. He's also right. I think people confuse Jurgen's target audience at times. He is not denigrating the MLS as a landing spot for his good players. He wants his BEST players to challenge themselves. He also wants his young players to experience it. (again, I think you would be amazed at how many young American soccer players are overseas right now). Michael Bradley, our best player at the moment and our best attacking option, plays for Toronto. Quickly look where the CAM's for the world's top 15 national teams all play. Bradley made his choice, for his reasons. He also did it after playing in Europe. Jurgen is sending a message to the next generation not to settle for tier 3 before trying tier 1. Go out, take chances, experience, possibly fail. The MLS is always here.

There's absolutely no reason for Klinsmann to publicly shame his players for playing in the MLS. Guys like Altidore, Bradley and Dempsey know that the MLS is an inferior soccer league to the other top leagues that they've played in.

They've made the life decision to take HUGE paydays and move their families back to North America where they know they'll be happier. It's that simple. So they don't need their coach publicly criticizing their personal life decisions for not continuing to grind out careers in Europe for the betterment of his program.

Besides, we can debate that high profile USMNT players coming back to play in the MLS to help grow the league might someday be BENEFICIAL to the USMNT program. I don't care what sport you're talking about, keeping your best players in country can only be a good thing in the long run for the growth of your sport.

 

[Uncle Si]

You're coming off a bit hypocritical here, naive as well. Where has he publicly shamed them? Critical is not "shaming", and you hear it everywhere. I think you're upset about the assertions against the MLS. And again, he is right.

Here is an article on his discussions with Dempsey:
http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/...smann-interview-clint-dempsey-landon-donovan/

Harsh, but fair.

His quotes on Altidore:

"The biggest advice is 'You gotta play,'" Klinsmann said. "You can't sit on the bench there and not be in match fitness, so find a team that gives you a chance to play.

"The most important thing is that he catches up with the rest of the group and plays again and scores goals on a regular basis."


His quotes on Bradley:

"There's nothing I can do about it," Klinsmann told reporters Monday. "I made it clear with Clint's move back and Michael's move back that it's going to be very difficult to keep the same level that they experienced at the places where they were. It's just reality. It's just being honest."

He honed in specifically on Bradley, saying, "he has to prove he hasn't lost a bit."

"I think he's been faced with a very, very difficult year, going from a Champions League club [AS Roma in Italy's Serie A] to a team, Toronto, that seems like they're not even going to qualify for the playoffs," Klinsmann said. "It's a huge disappointment."

This is the same line that any high end national team coach would give his best pool of players, and do, alot.

I feel like people (you) are more upset of the criticism of the MLS (which is what Klinsmann is saying) than anything else. And again, he is specific in his audience (his top players, we are talking like 3 or 4 guys). The MLS is not a league where top players hone their skills. It will be a place where younger players do, however. You cannot want the USMNT to succeed now with its best players developing in a lower tier of play, then criticize the coach because his players are tactically unsound and can't finish from 12 yards. That is hypocritical. He wants the players to challenge themselves. If it doesn't work out, if you fail, then the MLS is waiting.

I see no issue in this logic, and am fine with a coach who is willing to stand by his philosophy and structure and push for what he sees is the best for his program.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I feel like people (you) are more upset of the criticism of the MLS (which is what Klinsmann is saying) than anything else. .

Absolutely not. I'm not an idiot, I know the MLS is an inferior league...........and so do the players.

That's not why they moved back, they moved back for monetary and personal reasons. So again, for their coach to say "harsh" things publicly in order to send some sort of message isn't a positive or productive way to get his message across. It just isn't.

Bottom line for me is Jurgen is delusional if he thinks he has ANY impact on one of his player's professional decision as to where they play. Maybe young guys who are hungry to get on the roster, like a Yedlin might heed his advice. But the core of his veteran players? They don't give a crap what he says, they're still going to do what's best for their bank account and family.

So why create that resentment with the negative comments?

 

[Uncle Si]

I feel like people (you) are more upset of the criticism of the MLS (which is what Klinsmann is saying) than anything else. .

Absolutely not. I'm not an idiot, I know the MLS is an inferior league...........and so do the players.

That's not why they moved back, they moved back for monetary and personal reasons. So again, for their coach to say "harsh" things publicly in order to send some sort of message isn't a positive or productive way to get his message across. It just isn't.

Bottom line for me is Jurgen is delusional if he thinks he has ANY impact on one of his player's professional decision as to where they play. Maybe young guys who are hungry to get on the roster, like a Yedlin might heed his advice. But the core of his veteran players? They don't give a crap what he says, they're still going to do what's best for their bank account and family.

So why create that resentment with the negative comments?

Its time to move on from the "core veteran players." He knows this. Its time to change the mentality.

I still don't think those are negative comments. He is resetting expectations for the program, not just for a handful of players. He is letting them know that expectations should be higher for the best players than settling in lower tiered leagues. One day I'm sure he hopes he has 5 or 6 players of Bradley's quality, all making competitive choices on where they play to be in the National team picture as much as for fiscal and personal reasons. Many, many players world wide have gone through this. Its even harsher there, where sometimes just moving to a lesser team can signal the end. Look at Beckham.

In reality, he is talking more to his younger players (like Yedlin, Julian Green) than he is to his returning stars. He is attempting to set a precedent. How else would you like him to get it across? Not just to them, but to the supporters of USMNT and the thousands of young players working their way up. I see no shame in wanting the USMNT to be the premier playing goal of the nation's players. He is simply stating what the expectations for participation should be, and using top names to get a point across. This is how you reset philosophy. When he starts leaving MLS players out of the mix all together, then people can complain.

Look no further than the Dutch, Brazilians or Argentinians. Their top players are in the top leagues. Their bright young stars are working their way over there. This in spite of a healthy, competitive lower tiered domestic league. Those players (for the most part) are not considered strong enough. This is the expectation in their set up. When the older players come back, they are forgotten by the National team.

Always a good chat...

 

[razgriz737]

Altidore suspended for the next friendly, v. Mexico. Possibly suspended for 3 additional matches, but I haven't seen confirmation on that yet. I'm sure Toronto fans aren't complaining.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I feel like people (you) are more upset of the criticism of the MLS (which is what Klinsmann is saying) than anything else. .

Absolutely not. I'm not an idiot, I know the MLS is an inferior league...........and so do the players.

That's not why they moved back, they moved back for monetary and personal reasons. So again, for their coach to say "harsh" things publicly in order to send some sort of message isn't a positive or productive way to get his message across. It just isn't.

Bottom line for me is Jurgen is delusional if he thinks he has ANY impact on one of his player's professional decision as to where they play. Maybe young guys who are hungry to get on the roster, like a Yedlin might heed his advice. But the core of his veteran players? They don't give a crap what he says, they're still going to do what's best for their bank account and family.

So why create that resentment with the negative comments?

Its time to move on from the "core veteran players." He knows this. Its time to change the mentality. .

Time to move on from Altidore and Bradley? They're 25 and 27. Arguably the two biggest stars on the squad, and Klinsmann has no problem criticizing them for their career choices.

I'm a Pete Carroll always be positive fostering and nurturing your players to maximize their talent, I don't like the negative approach to managing or coaching..........and if Jurgen does want to criticize his player? Keep it behind closed doors man to man. Doing it in the press is BS.

 

[Uncle Si]

Did you read the whole thread, or are you cherry picking without context?

They are 25 and 27, and 3 and 1/2 years from the next world cup. Do the math Sargent. Bradley will be a 30/31 year old attacking mid. Altidore a 28/29 year old striker. The others that fell under his scrutiny were Dempsey and Donovan, who will both be in their mid to late 30s. This is probably their last world cup as impact players.

He didn't criticize the player, either. Read the quotes. He is critical of players in their prime leaving top levels of play. As are any coaches. He is setting a precedent. Expand your horizons beyond the MLS and you will see this same attitude towards players (and the use of the press to add pressure) all over the game.

If you want to compare it to Pete, then this is the always compete mantra, except he has to round this out every 4 years. (Hell, remember Pete's comments on Sanchez leaving school early?) If Bradley and Altidore had any true competition at their positions than this would be something people would roundly support. Put yourself in the most difficult and challenging place possible or open yourself up to being left out. That's all Jurgen said, by the way. You will have to prove yourself.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Did you read the whole thread, or are you cherry picking without context?

They are 25 and 27, and 3 and 1/2 years from the next world cup. Do the math Sargent. Bradley will be a 30/31 year old attacking mid. Altidore a 28/29 year old striker. The others that fell under his scrutiny were Dempsey and Donovan, who will both be in their mid to late 30s. This is probably their last world cup as impact players.

He didn't criticize the player, either. Read the quotes. He is critical of players in their prime leaving top levels of play. As are any coaches. He is setting a precedent. Expand your horizons beyond the MLS and you will see this same attitude towards players (and the use of the press to add pressure) all over the game.

If you want to compare it to Pete, then this is the always compete mantra, except he has to round this out every 4 years. (Hell, remember Pete's comments on Sanchez leaving school early?) If Bradley and Altidore had any true competition at their positions than this would be something people would roundly support. Put yourself in the most difficult and challenging place possible or open yourself up to being left out. That's all Jurgen said, by the way. You will have to prove yourself.

I did read the whole thread, and your whole comment. You said, and I quote "it's time to move on from the core veteran players."

Crazy that you'd think it's time to move on from guys still in their 20's that are the very heart and soul of the USMNT, or to insinuate that Jurgen doesn't care about hurting player's feeling because he's trying to move on and instill some sort of new guard mentality for his younger players.

And sorry Si, but if this isn't criticizing your players publicly for their career choices, I don't know what is.

My whole talk to Clint Dempsey for 18 months was [about how] he hasn’t made s—. You play for Fulham? Yeah, so? Show me you play for a Champions League team, and then you start on a Champions League team and that you may end up winning the Champions League. There is always another level. If you one day reach the highest level then you’ve got to confirm it, every year. Xavi, Iniesta, Messi. Confirm it to me. Show me that every year you deserve to play for Real Madrid, for Bayern Munich, for Manchester United. Show it to me.

Jurgen doesn't speak in generalities, his comment is directed right at Clint.

I guess we can agree to disagree, cause I can't think of one positive thing that publicly calling out your players does for the betterment of the squad.

 

[Uncle Si]

You're so wrapped up in "calling out" and he hasn't said anything about the player, just the decision. And he's clearly not calling out Dempsey's decision, or Bradley's decision, but THE decision to leave a high level for a mediocre one.

Guys in their mid 20s, 9 months removed from the world cup, are going to struggle to make it to the next. You see that, right? They are not the "heart and soul" of the team. Getting to play for your national team is the heart and soul. That is what its time to move on from. Expand the opportunity, make it competitive, and ditch the "well, there's only like 15-20 good players in the nation anyways" mentality. In 2018, this team's heart and soul will have been altered greatly. Maybe it's still Bradley and Jozy, but it will be for very different reasons. That is how a National team works. Look around.

Its not about giving up on them. Hell, it's not even about "them." Its about moving on from protecting them. Jurgen's comments to Clint or crisp, a tad harsh, and absolutely true. And again, how is he publically calling them out? He is making it clear that players need to find their best opportunities, and not to expect to walk into the USMNT just because they are Clint, Michael, Jozy (and Landon). "There is always another level." Yeah, what an a--hole. How dare he state, publicly, that his players must be prepared for his expectations.

Jesus, you say you want soccer to grow in this nation but can't grasp the plan. You want a USMNT team that can compete, but whimper about a squad with 2 players from the team that lost their last game to Belgium drawing 1-1 with one of the top 15 squads in the world.

It's funny you compare it to Pete but can't see how similar they really are. Always compete. Always get better. Always challenge yourself. That's exactly where those comments are directed. "Great, you're at Fulham. What about Champs League?" (what does Dempsey do? He tries to engineer a move to Liverpool, then Spurs, two teams on the cusp of the highest competition club soccer has.) He even supported Jozy's move back to the MLS because he wasn't playing at Stoke.

We definitely disagree on this. I want a sharp, cutthroat leader with high, high expectations for his players and program, with a long term plan for building and maintaining this attitude and who understands the sacrifices it takes to win at this level.

 

[Uncle Si]

Anyways. Always a good chat Sargent.

 

[UK_Seahawk]

Saw Ariyibi in the flesh for the first time yesterday. He came on at half time and helped turn a a 2 nil deficit into a 3 2 victory.

He's going to be a very good player. Fast, skilful and is always looking to beat his man. At times the opposition had no answer to him and cynically scythed him down.

 

[Uncle Si]

Saw Ariyibi in the flesh for the first time yesterday. He came on at half time and helped turn a a 2 nil deficit into a 3 2 victory.

He's going to be a very good player. Fast, skilful and is always looking to beat his man. At times the opposition had no answer to him and cynically scythed him down.

Exciting to hear. Keep the updates coming

 

[SeatownJay]

USA is playing Mexico in San Antonio and man does the temporary grass field at the Alamodome look like crap. No wonder the Mexican side was complaining about it this week.

 

[Smurf]

Hey, I have an idea...lets play a chippy rivalry game in the middle of the week on a temporary pitch....this aught to go well!


Yedlin and Jordan Morris in the starting 11 though...

 

[Smurf]

Familiar score line.

Dos A Cero.

2-0 USMNT over Mexico.

Jordan Morris and Juan Agudelo your goal scorers.