We're sorry, Tical. You were right, please forgive us, Tical

John63

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olyfan63":1l75q9ka said:
Tical21":1l75q9ka said:
Both. Russell was much better today. Especially with his accuracy. But you'll notice on the strip sack, the other really bad sack late, the 2 yard quick passes where Dissly got hit quickly, were all against 2-deep. The 49ers had success in 2-deep and Russ was noticeably uncomfortable against it, which you can even see in his presnap body language, but the 49ers major in single-high safety, so I knew going in that we were going to get quite a bit of it. And Russ was much more comfortable and feasted. I was wondering whether the niners were going to run a lot more 2-deep than usual because of Russ' troubles against it as of late, or whether they'd stick to their typical gameplan. In the end, they ran a little more 2-deep than usual, but not much.

Interesting. I was watching on a small mobile device so couldn't really pick up what the D was doing, but definitely something to look for, Russell's pre-snap body language. I suppose it's a good thing, that at least he's recognizing what he's seeing enough to be uncomfortable; maybe that discomfort is Russell trying to focus on trying to read what's there and flash through the routes in his mind and where to go with the ball. He's faked it for so long, used his own set of "rules" to sidestep the "official" way of reading the D, that trying a different way has to still be awkward and stressful for him.

So we know the Rams will throw a lot of 2-high at him, and so also will the Cardinals. It seemed to me that the OT game vs. the Cardinals last year is when Russell's struggles with 2-High looks were fully exposed for all the world, OK, the NFL world, to see.

You were too early, before the world was ready to see it. Besides, this limitation doesn't usually fully appear until playoff games, where we face more talented and better-prepared defenses. Also, it took Kurt Warner showing it in Xs and Os videos of Russell's playoff game, to start to accurately understand the issue, at least for me.

Also, there was another helpful breakdown video, from 2019, not showing Russell's "weakness" or "issues", but showing how he and Tyler Lockett "read" each other, and showing how Russell reads the coverage on the receiver, rather than the defense as a whole, and in turn Lockett also reads the coverage, and freelances--er, adjusts his route to the coverage, and Russell knows exactly how Tyler will improvise, and puts the ball with accuracy where he knows Tyler will be, based on their shared scramble drill rules. To me, this showed why the Wilson-to-Lockett combination has been so *incredibly good*. It also showed why Wilson often holds the ball for 5 seconds and more, looking deep downfield, and so often has to run out of the pocket to buy more time.

The flipside however, was the realization that that Russell has been using this "read the coverage on the receiver" as a shortcut, a *crutch* to avoid having to learn and master the detailed rules and reads that are required against 2-Deep safeties types of coverages, and preferring to look first for deep throws while often not even looking at shorter routes that require getting the ball out quickly .

These understandings also explain a lot of other things, from the relationship between Carroll and Wilson, to Waldron dialing up plays that create open receivers that Russell seemingly repeatedly turns his nose up at. It's like Russell is essentially having to learn a foreign language, as a near-beginner. It also shows the need for the Seahawks to have a strong run game to support Russell, and an O-Line that excels in run-blocking, but has to be at least average, not awful, in pass-pro. It explains how Russell, behind a crap O-Line in 2013 with rookies Michael Bowie and Alvin Bailey, but with Lynch as a run threat, and with his peak mobility, and supported by a historic defense, was able to lead the Seahawks to 2 Super Bowls in a row, winning one. It even explains many aspects of "the pick" in SB49, that Russell just had to "trust the play" since he couldn't really read the D the Patriots were lining up in--not 2-Deep, but 2-Many bodies in a small space for Russell to read to know where to go with the ball.

It even possibly explains Richard Sherman's seeming disdain for Russell's skills. Sherman, as an avid student of game film, saw other QBs making reads against the Hawks defense, e.g., Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and knew Russell's skill set in reading defenses was so deficient as to be laughable in comparison to that level of QB skills. (Russell has other amazing superpowers) Sherman had long been annoyed, and probably loudly complained, that Russell wasn't expected/required to learn those reads. Thus, when Russell threw "the pick", Sherman could see it coming and was so disgusted, angered, and blamed Russell for not being able to read the defense and make a better decision with the ball. In Sherman's mind, he knew the D and the run game had carried Russell, erased his mistakes, and Russell and the coaching staff had let down him and the rest of the team through what Sherman viewed as a failure to prepare, and Russell being coddled. Sherman, being a bit of a narcissist, was beside-himself angry that Russell, and the coaching staff, had "thrown away" his, the team's, the defense's, the LOB's, rightful place in history as a defensive dynasty, all because Russell was allowed to be coddled. Hey, it's a theory, not saying it's right, just a theory to entertain.

So, what all this means, is that for the Seahawks to be a playoff threat again with Wilson, is that Russell needs to learn the reads needed to know where to go with the ball quickly, against a variety of defenses. His escapability alone is no longer sufficient. I'm pretty sure Russell knows this and is working his tail off on it.

LOl tical got you so sorry/
 

olyfan63

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John63":2jokh0ix said:
LOl tical got you so sorry/

More like TRUTH and ACCURACY, with Kurt Warner as a primary influence. Warner has a bit more firsthand experience NFL playoff quarterback credibility than anyone on this board. It's too bad John63 and others are blinded by looking at this as being on one "SIDE" or another, in a misguided all-or-nothing way.

Russell does some things amazingly well, and he has deficiencies in other areas. To this point in his career, he's used his phenomenal strengths to compensate for his shortcomings. However, other teams, and NFL defenses as a whole have, over the years, "figured out" how to counter many of Russell's strengths, to force him into situations where he's not as comfortable.

Russell won't be winning Divisional playoff games unless he has an elite defense and a league-leading running game supporting him. He never has. The holes in Russell's game get exposed by good teams in high-stakes settings. Russell is 0-for-3 in his last 3 Divisional playoff games, in addition to losing a home Wildcard playoff game last year. Russell's last divisional playoff victory was in the 2014 post-season leading up to SB49. Almost 7 years ago, with Hawks #1 Defense, and Beastmode. Russell's primary weaknesses got exposed in the 4-picks NFCCG by the Packers and in SB49 by "the pick" and he's never fixed them. That historic 2013-2014 Defense was SO GOOD and the run game and Beastmode were SO STRONG that they nearly carried Russell to a SB Champs repeat. Yes, Russell made some great plays along the way. Since then, Russell has shown that he isn't a QB who can win games in the postseason without a great D and a strong run game. In the salary cap era, it's tough to pay a franchise QB and still have the supporting cast talent.

This year, the team can't win *regular season* games and make the playoffs without Russell upgrading his game. The team would have to win out. The defense might be good enough now, but it's an unlikely scenario. At this point, it's more about the team figuring out how to improve for another shot next year. It's been over 6 years since the last Divisional playoff Seahawks win. It's Russell's move.
 

John63

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For every so-called expert or former player or QB that says one thing, you can find another that says something else. I Can selectively pick games or plays from any QB Warner, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, and say look they are missing guys, they are not diagnosing the defense etc etc. I can grab periods of time when all of them had several bad games or seasons.

The thing they all have in coming along with Wilson is they could not have done what they have done in their careers without being great most of the time. Even the greatest of the greats the supposed GOAt had bad patches and seasons.

The reality is Wilson's career numbers are right up there with any of them and his wins are too.

I know some of you don't like it, but those are the facts.
 

OrangeGravy

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John63":2gyxtes3 said:
For every so-called expert or former player or QB that says one thing, you can find another that says something else. I Can selectively pick games or plays from any QB Warner, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, and say look they are missing guys, they are not diagnosing the defense etc etc. I can grab periods of time when all of them had several bad games or seasons.

The thing they all have in coming along with Wilson is they could not have done what they have done in their careers without being great most of the time. Even the greatest of the greats the supposed GOAt had bad patches and seasons.

The reality is Wilson's career numbers are right up there with any of them and his wins are too.

I know some of you don't like it, but those are the facts.
The real issue is you can find at least 1 playoff game where those QBs were the reason their team won. Sure they all had bad ones, but they also were the reason their team won multiple playoff games. Russell has exactly zero games in the playoffs where he carried the team to victory. ZERO
 

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Well you could count the NFC Championship game against Green Bay. In spite of the early setbacks, RW stood on his head and willed the Seahawks to overtime victory.

I know some left that game early, and others turned off their sets, but I watched RW throw that pass to Kearse in the endzone for the OT win.

Now that's not ZERO is it?
 

Palmegranite

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They also beat the Vikings, Lions and Eagles in the playoffs since that game. Look up Russell Wilson's stats and compare them to Matt Stafford et al. They are really good.

I get it. You, Tical and others are unhappy with the recent downtick in success.
But you can't revise history.
 

SoulfishHawk

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I bet that hurt to say Tical, but props. At least you actually sort of acknowledged Russ. Always with an asterisk, but oh well. He did all the things that people CLAIM he can't. It's more laughable that people expected the game Russ right away on that thrashed finger. He's 8 weeks since Surgery, looked like Russ on Sunday. It's not a coincidence he played so well after 2 months of healing. Came back too early, get over it and move forward.
 

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Bugles going off!
Great win for the team..Russ finally started taking what the D was giving underneath
instead of going hero mode..This allowed him to get rid of the ball quicker.Him not
checking out of running plays so much was a plus too..Why Why Why didn't he do this
so many games sooner?I know he doesn't like Peteball but it works if he buys in.
I hope he keeps doing this..I really want to keep his trade stock high and deny the Jets of
a top 10 pick too.
 

OrangeGravy

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Palmegranite":gmokrzac said:
Well you could count the NFC Championship game against Green Bay. In spite of the early setbacks, RW stood on his head and willed the Seahawks to overtime victory.

I know some left that game early, and others turned off their sets, but I watched RW throw that pass to Kearse in the endzone for the OT win.

Now that's not ZERO is it?
I would buy that game if it didn't take 2 miracle plays that had nothing to do with Russell in the 2nd half.
 

OrangeGravy

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Palmegranite":309r6482 said:
They also beat the Vikings, Lions and Eagles in the playoffs since that game. Look up Russell Wilson's stats and compare them to Matt Stafford et al. They are really good.

I get it. You, Tical and others are unhappy with the recent downtick in success.
But you can't revise history.
Better than Stafford? The Stafford that has never won a playoff game? Who cares?

I'm talking about carrying a team deep into the playoffs on the back of his play. Not having average performances in the wild car round and below average performances in the divisional round. That's what separates truly great QBs from the pack. Russell and a lot of fans put him in that truly great category. I and some others put him the really good category. If the greats were like major league players, Russell would be a classic 4A player. Crushes it in triple A, but flames out in the big leagues
 

SoulfishHawk

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Yeah, it's probably Russ' fault that butterfingers Kearse dropped those passes that were picked too right?
 

OrangeGravy

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SoulfishHawk":ox08s5jj said:
I bet that hurt to say Tical, but props. At least you actually sort of acknowledged Russ. Always with an asterisk, but oh well. He did all the things that people CLAIM he can't. It's more laughable that people expected the game Russ right away on that thrashed finger. He's 8 weeks since Surgery, looked like Russ on Sunday. It's not a coincidence he played so well after 2 months of healing. Came back too early, get over it and move forward.
Doesn’t and won't are different than can't. He's always been capable, he just doesn't and when he has he doesn't do it consistently enough to affect change in opposing defenses. Hopefully he continues to do it enough that defenses have to stay balanced and not over play his natural tendencies
 

SoulfishHawk

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Give what the defense is allowing you to take. It doesn't seem hard. Partly on him, but also on the crap play calling.
I hope to see a lot more of it. This O Line is pathetic, you can't just have him sit back there to get blasted.
 

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OrangeGravy":1q0tnpo8 said:
Palmegranite":1q0tnpo8 said:
Well you could count the NFC Championship game against Green Bay. In spite of the early setbacks, RW stood on his head and willed the Seahawks to overtime victory.

I know some left that game early, and others turned off their sets, but I watched RW throw that pass to Kearse in the endzone for the OT win.

Now that's not ZERO is it?
I would buy that game if it didn't take 2 miracle plays that had nothing to do with Russell in the 2nd half.

Well to be fair all four of the picks went through receivers hands as well.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Stop bringing facts in. Clearly it's all Russ' fault. Funny because they don't make either SB without him. Or without the LOB. Or w/out Lynch.
 

John63

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OrangeGravy":2hvnei6n said:
SoulfishHawk":2hvnei6n said:
I bet that hurt to say Tical, but props. At least you actually sort of acknowledged Russ. Always with an asterisk, but oh well. He did all the things that people CLAIM he can't. It's more laughable that people expected the game Russ right away on that thrashed finger. He's 8 weeks since Surgery, looked like Russ on Sunday. It's not a coincidence he played so well after 2 months of healing. Came back too early, get over it and move forward.
Doesn’t and won't are different than can't. He's always been capable, he just doesn't and when he has he doesn't do it consistently enough to affect change in opposing defenses. Hopefully he continues to do it enough that defenses have to stay balanced and not over play his natural tendencies

To bad factually speaking none of this is true but you go.
 

John63

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OrangeGravy":25qdi185 said:
John63":25qdi185 said:
For every so-called expert or former player or QB that says one thing, you can find another that says something else. I Can selectively pick games or plays from any QB Warner, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, and say look they are missing guys, they are not diagnosing the defense etc etc. I can grab periods of time when all of them had several bad games or seasons.

The thing they all have in coming along with Wilson is they could not have done what they have done in their careers without being great most of the time. Even the greatest of the greats the supposed GOAt had bad patches and seasons.

The reality is Wilson's career numbers are right up there with any of them and his wins are too.

I know some of you don't like it, but those are the facts.
The real issue is you can find at least 1 playoff game where those QBs were the reason their team won. Sure they all had bad ones, but they also were the reason their team won multiple playoff games. Russell has exactly zero games in the playoffs where he carried the team to victory. ZERO


Incorrect as has already been shown
Also
He has 4 4th qtr/OT game-winning drives in the playoffs so sorry you are wrong again.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/comeback.cgi?player=WilsRu00
 

OrangeGravy

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John63":3tanqv2c said:
OrangeGravy":3tanqv2c said:
John63":3tanqv2c said:
For every so-called expert or former player or QB that says one thing, you can find another that says something else. I Can selectively pick games or plays from any QB Warner, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, and say look they are missing guys, they are not diagnosing the defense etc etc. I can grab periods of time when all of them had several bad games or seasons.

The thing they all have in coming along with Wilson is they could not have done what they have done in their careers without being great most of the time. Even the greatest of the greats the supposed GOAt had bad patches and seasons.

The reality is Wilson's career numbers are right up there with any of them and his wins are too.

I know some of you don't like it, but those are the facts.
The real issue is you can find at least 1 playoff game where those QBs were the reason their team won. Sure they all had bad ones, but they also were the reason their team won multiple playoff games. Russell has exactly zero games in the playoffs where he carried the team to victory. ZERO


Incorrect as has already been shown
Also
He has 4 4th qtr/OT game-winning drives in the playoffs so sorry you are wrong again.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/comeback.cgi?player=WilsRu00
Doing nothing for 3.5 quarters and winning in the end isn't carrying a team.
 

Palmegranite

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So which is it? Games where he carried the team to victory, or games where he excelled in the early part of the game?

Your argument keeps changing.

Some QBs put a towel on their head or play worse when the team is down early. Not Russell Wilson.

I'll give one more example. If not for poorly chosen footwear in a playoff game against Carolina, this QB was going to carry the team to a third Superbowl appearance, nearly overcoming a 30 point deficit.
 

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Tical21":1kun6ifb said:
Simply a lazy take. We are near the top of the league in neutral score early down pass rate. Not the bottom. We aren't run first anymore. And weren't last year either.

Pete built a team and system around Russell's strengths and tried to hide his weaknesses. Now that those weaknesses are apparent for everyone to see in plain view, your real take is....get this ....."I don't blame Russ for those.....I blame Pete.". That's what you're going with? In spite of all the film that we have. That's what you're going with. Final answer?


This x 1000. It's just plain lazy to look at Russel now and surmise that he WAS great but ruined by Pete. 60 minutes of film review and an understanding of how the QB position is supposed to be played makes it plainly obvious that Russ has had some difficiencies from the beginning.

The Seattle system is run first, pass second, and is built on fast, efficient pass game built on smart xs and os distribution of the ball safely - ie - safe as in getting the ball to the open guy wherever he is, not absurdly hamstringing the offense by abandoning 1/3rd of the field.

Russ does not distribute the ball well to the open guy on time, in the system. He buys time with his legs. That ability allowed him to compensate for slower, basic reads and also suited him well in playing behind lines that didn't alway hold up. But just because the lines didn't alway hold up, doesn't mean Russ ALWAYS had to run. And the lines statistical performance was hurt, and helped by RW over the years - if the ball is in the qb's hands when it's supposed to be gone after 2.4 seconds, you might get sacked.

Pete brought Russ into a run first, pass quick system and although not gifted with the xs and os game , built him into that system and covered repeated ineffective rhythm passing and basic routes that Russ could throw with an all world defense, running game, and a lethal long ball game - a ball that Russ was uniquely skilled at throwing.

It is what it is. It was a marriage between a coach and QB that was ideal, until the QB demanded the entire philosophy of the team be changed to allow him to be acknowledged as a Brady type QB. But he demanded that without elevating his own xs and os knowledge and instead said... just guve me more time. Translated - obvuously way more time than should be necessary to get the ball out because even when he has time now in Waldrons system (and by Waldrons own critique) he holds the ball or doesn't see the open guy.

It's been obvious to many that what you see on Sundays from the couch isn't nearly the whole story. Nor are stats like QBr that had RW at 110 after performancesike the stinker against WFT. Or completion percentage - if you don't ever throw until your wr has 3 yards of separation and you have a good arm, you're probably going to complete a good % of passes. Same with INTs

Russ is a great qb at what he does. Not great at what he doesn't. But what he's not good at is no one's fault but his.
 
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