What a former player thinks

[chris98251]

Teams typically have a trend up and trend down, we trended up till 2014 and won it, some teams can sustain a plateau for a few years, we went back but were beat up and lost on one play, that play forward we began to trend down, noticeably at times marginally others. We have now trended downward from getting in back door at times to the Wild Card to looking like we may not get there at all now.

Many times teams stick with a Coach or players that were effective in the trend up to long, they have things that get figured out, age and are not as effective, or just become repetitive and predictable. Cant include the Patriots with Belichek, he is the outlier, he changes stuff week to week let alone season to season.

We have been concrete predictable no matter the OC or DC, small nuances changed, but fundamentally the same. Evan with Hass and Tjack we were much the same on offense, limited by some player abilities but mostly the same. Edge routes, try the deep ball and run run run.

As we got players and positioned then to play their gaps and rolls we got good fast since we went after players with aggressive chips on their shoulders that were fast and long.

Now the league has began getting those players also and it's not new and the league has evened the playing filed so Petes system is not unique, add the League created the Anti LOB rules and we never have adjusted except to play 15 yards off the ball using no splash play mentality but not getting physical and creating turnovers anymore.

Trends, you can see improvement and see decline even if the win loss record hasn't slapped up in the face yet, many here have seen trend down the last few years and talked about it, the argument is always the record but play decline is also relevant.

Team trending up you hear things learning how to win, the moment was too big for them, but they know for next time now etc.

Trending down, playing not to lose, playing it safe, if they just or if that ball just bounced in instead of out etc, more excuses of why and protection type play versus aggressive type play.

 

[bmorepunk]

Who the fck cares what that dipsh!t says.

LOL

The dude who left here after the Super Bowl and played for three teams that had a collective 54-57 games while he was with them, saw three playoff games, one of which was won over seven seasons?

He probably knows some things from experience.

 

[OrangeGravy]

It's not so black and white as you and others make it out to be. It's not guaranteed that we're going to go suddenly from winning seasons to years of mediocrity. So the narrative that getting rid of PC means "Oh no, back to what the team looked like BEFORE PC for years and years" is dumb and ridiculously outdated.

It's not guaranteed.

But it's highly probable.

"Outdated" is a weird term to use here given all the teams that just sit in the mediocre to bad category almost every year. That's probably about half the teams in the league, a little less now that they let a couple more teams in the playoffs. That's just a normal NFL team.

I don't know if this team is going to be better off without Carroll, but I do know that the last few years of "didn't get past the divisional round, ugh" is better than almost every team in the league.

If you're a gambler and believe in low probability rebuild or bust, I get that. But it seems like a lot of people think it's "guaranteed" or at least close to it that getting rid of Carroll will result in some high probability situation where the team regularly makes NFC Championship games/Super Bowls. That seems pretty delusional.

This is what I don't understand about the people on the fire Pete train. I think people are convinced that Russ + new HC gives the Hawks something like a 90% chance to be what GB and Rodgers are after they made the change. There's just no reason to believe that taking into account the history of just the QBs at Russell's level. It's more of a convenient rationalization for being sick of Pete, which 8s unnecessary. Being sick of Pete is a perfectly fine reason to want him out if you're a fan. No need to mask it with anything else.

With 1 SB win in my lifetime, I'm in the let's gamble camp and burn it down to the studs. I'm sick of Russell's fake ass, sick of watching this iteration of the team, and sick of the group think circle jerk. I'm ready to be in the anticipation phase of newness. If it takes many years to get back to what we've been recently, so be it. At least the complaints will be different and the people to complain about will be different

 

[Scorpion05]

This thread, and at times this site is a microcosm of society. It’s like this deep obsession with winning arguments.

The goal of any reasonable person should be to evaluate ALL FACTS and context on the table. Golden Tate last played for us in 2013. Greg Olsen played for us in 2020. To put it kindly, it’s flat out absurd, and silly to make that comparison.


Marvin Lewis made the playoffs every year, with Andy Dalton. Unless the criticism of him was racial, you can use the same defense to keep Marvin Lewis on the Bengals. What were the Bengals before then right? But actually, it was the right move to move on from him.

Is the NFL a meritocracy? If so, then the desire to move on from Pete is warranted just purely based on logic. I for one want Pete to stay, and EVOLVE. But I’ve been waiting 5 years for Pete to evolve. In that time, he’s butchered draft after draft, and made some questionable in game decisions. This is not some irrational, frothing at the mouth take. Let’s stop trying to win arguments and look at this fairly.

For all the fire KNJ talk, and all the Russell Wilson criticism, letting Pete off the hook feels…biased? I don’t know what kind of bias, but some people are definitely not judging Pete with the same critical eye they judge our players, or coaches with. If Pete is great, and adaptable, and all the great things people say, then you have nothing to worry about. Russell Wilson will leave, and fall flat on his face. Pete will thrive and continue to take the Seahawks to the playoffs. Because as far as I can see, he’s been poor at his job in recent years and is being carried by Russell Wilson. You don’t agree? Fine, let’s split them up and see. Nothing to fear, or bicker about if it’s no big deal.

But the game has passed him by. I am hanging on to hope he changes one last time.

 

[Maelstrom787]

This thread, and at times this site is a microcosm of society. It’s like this deep obsession with winning arguments.

The goal of any reasonable person should be to evaluate ALL FACTS and context on the table. Golden Tate last played for us in 2013. Greg Olsen played for us in 2020. To put it kindly, it’s flat out absurd, and silly to make that comparison.


Marvin Lewis made the playoffs every year, with Andy Dalton. Unless the criticism of him was racial, you can use the same defense to keep Marvin Lewis on the Bengals. What were the Bengals before then right? But actually, it was the right move to move on from him.

Is the NFL a meritocracy? If so, then the desire to move on from Pete is warranted just purely based on logic. I for one want Pete to stay, and EVOLVE. But I’ve been waiting 5 years for Pete to evolve. In that time, he’s butchered draft after draft, and made some questionable in game decisions. This is not some irrational, frothing at the mouth take. Let’s stop trying to win arguments and look at this fairly.

For all the fire KNJ talk, and all the Russell Wilson criticism, letting Pete off the hook feels…biased? I don’t know what kind of bias, but some people are definitely not judging Pete with the same critical eye they judge our players, or coaches with. If Pete is great, and adaptable, and all the great things people say, then you have nothing to worry about. Russell Wilson will leave, and fall flat on his face. Pete will thrive and continue to take the Seahawks to the playoffs. Because as far as I can see, he’s been poor at his job in recent years and is being carried by Russell Wilson. You don’t agree? Fine, let’s split them up and see. Nothing to fear, or bicker about if it’s no big deal.

But the game has passed him by. I am hanging on to hope he changes one last time.

I'm truly not trying to win any argument here. The team is dogshit and the coaching has been awful this year. I cannot dispute this. I'm just making a point that I don't think we're remaining especially objective as a board, and I personally feel that it's the biggest contributing factor to the degradation of the discourse here.

 

[K.J WRIGHT]

Did anyone see Wilson on Thursday, before the game, he was doing this stupid a$$ warm up like he was running the offense looking at the cameras.....LOL

Collingsworth ate it up...LOL

Russ is a media whore. Can't wait until he's gone.

He can take his mentally challenged pacifier sucking knob with him. :2thumbs:

 

[RolandDeschain]

That same division is why they went to the playoffs those 9 out of 11. For the most part the NFC west has been garbage outside a few years.

If you added up the total number of wins of every division for the past decade, you'd find the inaccuracy of your statement. You won't do it, though; wouldn't want facts to get in the way of a preferred narrative.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Did anyone see Wilson on Thursday, before the game, he was doing this stupid a$$ warm up like he was running the offense looking at the cameras.....LOL

Collingsworth ate it up...LOL

Russ is a media whore. Can't wait until he's gone.

He can take his mentally challenged pacifier sucking knob with him. :2thumbs:

You do know that you're free to root for a team containing players that you don't viscerally hate, right?

 

[John63]

Did anyone see Wilson on Thursday, before the game, he was doing this stupid a$$ warm up like he was running the offense looking at the cameras.....LOL

Collingsworth ate it up...LOL

Russ is a media who**. Can't wait until he's gone.

He can take his mentally challenged pacifier sucking knob with him. :2thumbs:

See and that isnthe difference between you who wants you who wants to demonize anything Wilson does to validate his hatred and people who understand football. And a knowledgeable fan who know most of this game is mental and knows what Wilson is doing is a way of keeping mentally sharp.

Fyi most of us wish you would take your mentally challenged pacifier and would leave this forum.

 

[Somos doces]

Teams typically have a trend up and trend down, we trended up till 2014 and won it, some teams can sustain a plateau for a few years, we went back but were beat up and lost on one play, that play forward we began to trend down, noticeably at times marginally others. We have now trended downward from getting in back door at times to the Wild Card to looking like we may not get there at all now.

Many times teams stick with a Coach or players that were effective in the trend up to long, they have things that get figured out, age and are not as effective, or just become repetitive and predictable. Cant include the Patriots with Belichek, he is the outlier, he changes stuff week to week let alone season to season.

We have been concrete predictable no matter the OC or DC, small nuances changed, but fundamentally the same. Evan with Hass and Tjack we were much the same on offense, limited by some player abilities but mostly the same. Edge routes, try the deep ball and run run run.

As we got players and positioned then to play their gaps and rolls we got good fast since we went after players with aggressive chips on their shoulders that were fast and long.

Now the league has began getting those players also and it's not new and the league has evened the playing filed so Petes system is not unique, add the League created the Anti LOB rules and we never have adjusted except to play 15 yards off the ball using no splash play mentality but not getting physical and creating turnovers anymore.

Trends, you can see improvement and see decline even if the win loss record hasn't slapped up in the face yet, many here have seen trend down the last few years and talked about it, the argument is always the record but play decline is also relevant.

Team trending up you hear things learning how to win, the moment was too big for them, but they know for next time now etc.

Trending down, playing not to lose, playing it safe, if they just or if that ball just bounced in instead of out etc, more excuses of why and protection type play versus aggressive type play.

This is a great summary. Nicely done!

 

[K.J WRIGHT]

Did anyone see Wilson on Thursday, before the game, he was doing this stupid a$$ warm up like he was running the offense looking at the cameras.....LOL

Collingsworth ate it up...LOL

Russ is a media who**. Can't wait until he's gone.

He can take his mentally challenged pacifier sucking knob with him. :2thumbs:

See and that isnthe difference between you who wants you who wants to demonize anything Wilson does to validate his hatred and people who understand football. And a knowledgeable fan who know most of this game is mental and knows what Wilson is doing is a way of keeping mentally sharp.

Fyi most of us wish you would take your mentally challenged pacifier and would leave this forum.

You sound angry ? Have your Momma get you a juice box. LOL

 

[K.J WRIGHT]

Did anyone see Wilson on Thursday, before the game, he was doing this stupid a$$ warm up like he was running the offense looking at the cameras.....LOL

Collingsworth ate it up...LOL

Russ is a media who**. Can't wait until he's gone.

He can take his mentally challenged pacifier sucking knob with him. :2thumbs:

See and that isnthe difference between you who wants you who wants to demonize anything Wilson does to validate his hatred and people who understand football. And a knowledgeable fan who know most of this game is mental and knows what Wilson is doing is a way of keeping mentally sharp.

Fyi most of us wish you would take your mentally challenged pacifier and would leave this forum.

You need a cyber hankie ? LOL

 

[John63]

Did anyone see Wilson on Thursday, before the game, he was doing this stupid a$$ warm up like he was running the offense looking at the cameras.....LOL

Collingsworth ate it up...LOL

Russ is a media who**. Can't wait until he's gone.

He can take his mentally challenged pacifier sucking knob with him. :2thumbs:

See and that isnthe difference between you who wants you who wants to demonize anything Wilson does to validate his hatred and people who understand football. And a knowledgeable fan who know most of this game is mental and knows what Wilson is doing is a way of keeping mentally sharp.

Fyi most of us wish you would take your mentally challenged pacifier and would leave this forum.

You sound angry ? Have your Momma get you a juice box. LOL

ukeface:

 

[John63]

Did anyone see Wilson on Thursday, before the game, he was doing this stupid a$$ warm up like he was running the offense looking at the cameras.....LOL

Collingsworth ate it up...LOL

Russ is a media who**. Can't wait until he's gone.

He can take his mentally challenged pacifier sucking knob with him. :2thumbs:

See and that isnthe difference between you who wants you who wants to demonize anything Wilson does to validate his hatred and people who understand football. And a knowledgeable fan who know most of this game is mental and knows what Wilson is doing is a way of keeping mentally sharp.

Fyi most of us wish you would take your mentally challenged pacifier and would leave this forum.

You need a cyber hankie ? LOL

Hmm 2 posts and you said nothing way to contribute.

 

[LTH]

I'm literally just making a post contrasting the other post of the same name, where a poster freaked out about any criticism of the players (Greg Olson) opinion being because it "doesnt fit" the posters narrative.

Just saying, that logic needs to go both ways.

Just wanted to get that out of the way. Proceed. :irishdrinkers:

I was really irritated by Olsen's comments, especially when he said "yeah I didn't really agree with some of what Pete was preaching, but those other guys, they REALLY bought in!"

STFU dude, you basically stole 7M from the Hawks. So don't really put a lot of stock in what you say you saw last year.

Again, both can be true...............Pete's brilliant at culture, and all the organizational things that you need to build a winning program. But that doesn't also mean the game's past him by and he's now struggling with the X's and O's, and IMO the most important thing he's struggling with, player acquisition, development and drafting.

Here is the part Im not understanding...the days of teams dynasties like the 49ers and Steelers are long gone due to parity in the NFL... drafting at the bottom of the order for 12 years is typically not going to keep a team competitive look at the jets they have been drafting at the top of the drafting order for 12 years and they are not at all competitive.. but they don't have a franchise QB and every time they do get a decent QB they don't bring him along right... they just throw him in the fire to die like Sanchez...

Look what's happening to Andy Reed and Mahomes... The exact same thing that happened to Carroll and Wilson last year... does Reed deserve to be fired for a slow start?

Has the game past by Pete Carroll? There are no new schemes according to Bobby Wagner everything has already been done it just that coaches reinvent something that has already been done ... I understand that people might be bored with Carroll because they want to see the spectacular play all the time but is that really realistic?

Look at this last game vs the Saints ... yeah Carroll dialed it in cause of the weather, because of maybe what he thought Geno could handle... was that a bad decision? Well they lost the game but would it have been any different if he turned Geno loose? I Think Geno probably would have gotten sacked more and or turned the ball over... He got sacked, what 5 times? I don't see the logic in opening it up... yeah he ran the ball when the saints stacked the box...but they didn't turn the ball over ... I'm sure he would not have done that if Wilson was in the game...



LTH

 

[scutterhawk]

This thread, and at times this site is a microcosm of society. It’s like this deep obsession with winning arguments.

The goal of any reasonable person should be to evaluate ALL FACTS and context on the table. Golden Tate last played for us in 2013. Greg Olsen played for us in 2020. To put it kindly, it’s flat out absurd, and silly to make that comparison.


Marvin Lewis made the playoffs every year, with Andy Dalton. Unless the criticism of him was racial, you can use the same defense to keep Marvin Lewis on the Bengals. What were the Bengals before then right? But actually, it was the right move to move on from him.

Is the NFL a meritocracy? If so, then the desire to move on from Pete is warranted just purely based on logic. I for one want Pete to stay, and EVOLVE. But I’ve been waiting 5 years for Pete to evolve. In that time, he’s butchered draft after draft, and made some questionable in game decisions. This is not some irrational, frothing at the mouth take. Let’s stop trying to win arguments and look at this fairly.

For all the fire KNJ talk, and all the Russell Wilson criticism, letting Pete off the hook feels…biased? I don’t know what kind of bias, but some people are definitely not judging Pete with the same critical eye they judge our players, or coaches with. If Pete is great, and adaptable, and all the great things people say, then you have nothing to worry about. Russell Wilson will leave, and fall flat on his face. Pete will thrive and continue to take the Seahawks to the playoffs. Because as far as I can see, he’s been poor at his job in recent years and is being carried by Russell Wilson. You don’t agree? Fine, let’s split them up and see. Nothing to fear, or bicker about if it’s no big deal.

But the game has passed him by. I am hanging on to hope he changes one last time.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from, so let's do some constructive theorizing, let's say, we use Billycheck & Brady as a seat of the pants comparison; What's been BB's successes or downsides since Brady's departure?, I'd say, he is missing some key players that BB had personally hand picked (cherry picked) and schemed for their successes
Just saying that Brady went elsewhere and flourished is kind of misleading, considering that he is inarguably one of the GOAT's, that got to cherry pick from his former Coach, and a few other like minded, KEY players, while his new Coach stood aside and let him orchestrate the build...NOW, to be truthful, even though BB is considered by many to be the most adaptable of game planning Coaches in the League, his successes in the last 10 or more years, was entirely on Brady's play?, I'm not convinced that, that is the case....It was BB who was the original architect, who acquired the players, designed & built a system that fit Brady, and he flourished because of it.
Pete Carroll, though known more for his Defensive mind, still recognized that there were certain Offensive Schemes & players that gave his Defenses a really hard time defending against, so, he brought in Tom Cable, went & got Marshawn Lynch, LUCKILY, caught lightening in a bottle a second time, by Drafting Russell Wilson.
Pete is missing some KEY components to his Offensive Dream Team, that are just not that easy to replace, though he was (before injuries) having SOME success with Chris Carson.....I am not saying that IF a different Coach with a whole new approach, wouldn't be beneficial to RW, BUT, if we did change to a new Coach, I sincerely have my doubts that he wouldn't have to half ass blow up the roster, and go through an entire rebuild, & I don't see RW willing to wait several years for a change like that, changes that may or may not even be a FIT for him.
NOW, where could Russ go, where he'd have the same clout OR SUCCESSES that Brady did with Tampa Bay?
A hard reality; I just don't think we just send Pete packing, bring in another Coach without having some major stumblings, but that's just my opinion

 

[John63]

This thread, and at times this site is a microcosm of society. It’s like this deep obsession with winning arguments.

The goal of any reasonable person should be to evaluate ALL FACTS and context on the table. Golden Tate last played for us in 2013. Greg Olsen played for us in 2020. To put it kindly, it’s flat out absurd, and silly to make that comparison.


Marvin Lewis made the playoffs every year, with Andy Dalton. Unless the criticism of him was racial, you can use the same defense to keep Marvin Lewis on the Bengals. What were the Bengals before then right? But actually, it was the right move to move on from him.

Is the NFL a meritocracy? If so, then the desire to move on from Pete is warranted just purely based on logic. I for one want Pete to stay, and EVOLVE. But I’ve been waiting 5 years for Pete to evolve. In that time, he’s butchered draft after draft, and made some questionable in game decisions. This is not some irrational, frothing at the mouth take. Let’s stop trying to win arguments and look at this fairly.

For all the fire KNJ talk, and all the Russell Wilson criticism, letting Pete off the hook feels…biased? I don’t know what kind of bias, but some people are definitely not judging Pete with the same critical eye they judge our players, or coaches with. If Pete is great, and adaptable, and all the great things people say, then you have nothing to worry about. Russell Wilson will leave, and fall flat on his face. Pete will thrive and continue to take the Seahawks to the playoffs. Because as far as I can see, he’s been poor at his job in recent years and is being carried by Russell Wilson. You don’t agree? Fine, let’s split them up and see. Nothing to fear, or bicker about if it’s no big deal.

But the game has passed him by. I am hanging on to hope he changes one last time.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from, so let's do some constructive theorizing, let's say, we use Billycheck & Brady as a seat of the pants comparison; What's been BB's successes or downsides since Brady's departure?, I'd say, he is missing some key players that BB had personally hand picked (cherry picked) and schemed for their successes
Just saying that Brady went elsewhere and flourished is kind of misleading, considering that he is inarguably one of the GOAT's, that got to cherry pick from his former Coach, and a few other like minded, KEY players, while his new Coach stood aside and let him orchestrate the build...NOW, to be truthful, even though BB is considered by many to be the most adaptable of game planning Coaches in the League, his successes in the last 10 or more years, was entirely on Brady's play?, I'm not convinced that, that is the case....It was BB who was the original architect, who acquired the players, designed & built a system that fit Brady, and he flourished because of it.
Pete Carroll, though known more for his Defensive mind, still recognized that there were certain Offensive Schemes & players that gave his Defenses a really hard time defending against, so, he brought in Tom Cable, went & got Marshawn Lynch, LUCKILY, caught lightening in a bottle a second time, by Drafting Russell Wilson.
Pete is missing some KEY components to his Offensive Dream Team, that are just not that easy to replace, though he was (before injuries) having SOME success with Chris Carson.....I am not saying that IF a different Coach with a whole new approach, wouldn't be beneficial to RW, BUT, if we did change to a new Coach, I sincerely have my doubts that he wouldn't have to half ass blow up the roster, and go through an entire rebuild, & I don't see RW willing to wait several years for a change like that, changes that may or may not even be a FIT for him.
NOW, where could Russ go, where he'd have the same clout OR SUCCESSES that Brady did with Tampa Bay?
A hard reality; I just don't think we just send Pete packing, bring in another Coach without having some major stumblings, but that's just my opinion

You could be right but it's not like we are not having those problems now. I think the reason for a new HC is to find one that will look a what he has and make a system around that talent. Rather than what PC want which is to have a system and make the talent work in it. We have talent, we are just into using it right all the time.

 

[pittpnthrs]

. yeah he ran the ball when the saints stacked the box...but they didn't turn the ball over ...
LTH

Good lord. Is that your defense of that horrid coaching job?

 

[sdog1981]

Okay, I can see where you're coming from, so let's do some constructive theorizing, let's say, we use Billycheck & Brady as a seat of the pants comparison; What's been BB's successes or downsides since Brady's departure?, I'd say, he is missing some key players that BB had personally hand picked (cherry picked) and schemed for their successes
Just saying that Brady went elsewhere and flourished is kind of misleading, considering that he is inarguably one of the GOAT's, that got to cherry pick from his former Coach, and a few other like minded, KEY players, while his new Coach stood aside and let him orchestrate the build...NOW, to be truthful, even though BB is considered by many to be the most adaptable of game planning Coaches in the League, his successes in the last 10 or more years, was entirely on Brady's play?, I'm not convinced that, that is the case....It was BB who was the original architect, who acquired the players, designed & built a system that fit Brady, and he flourished because of it.
Pete Carroll, though known more for his Defensive mind, still recognized that there were certain Offensive Schemes & players that gave his Defenses a really hard time defending against, so, he brought in Tom Cable, went & got Marshawn Lynch, LUCKILY, caught lightening in a bottle a second time, by Drafting Russell Wilson.
Pete is missing some KEY components to his Offensive Dream Team, that are just not that easy to replace, though he was (before injuries) having SOME success with Chris Carson.....I am not saying that IF a different Coach with a whole new approach, wouldn't be beneficial to RW, BUT, if we did change to a new Coach, I sincerely have my doubts that he wouldn't have to half ass blow up the roster, and go through an entire rebuild, & I don't see RW willing to wait several years for a change like that, changes that may or may not even be a FIT for him.
NOW, where could Russ go, where he'd have the same clout OR SUCCESSES that Brady did with Tampa Bay?
A hard reality; I just don't think we just send Pete packing, bring in another Coach without having some major stumblings, but that's just my opinion

That is not how any of that happened.

Tom Brady was drafted as a camp arm that hoped never would start a game. Then Weis and Belichick keep Brady on a short leash for his first 4 years as a starter. The 2001-2004 Patriots still had a lot of Bill Parcells and Pete Carroll players on the defensive roster. Josh McDaniels was then installed as the OC in 2006. Then Tom Brady was allowed to air it out and they started to add players to the roster for the offense. They did not win another Super Bowl until after 2013 when Brady started to take shorter cheaper deals after he turned 35. Will Russ do that after his 2022 contract?

Lynch was added to the team in 2010. Cable joined the staff in 2011. The Cable hire was a can't beat them join them hire because Cable's 2010 Raiders ran for 239 yards on Carroll's Seahawks.

The story here is BB adjusted his system constantly and put talented coaches into positions to succeed and got out of their way.

Would Carroll allow a coach like McDaniels to completely change his team's offensive philosophy? Would Carroll roll out a completely new defensive look that would shock an opponent? These are the questions that bounce between these two successful teams.

 

[LTH]

. yeah he ran the ball when the saints stacked the box...but they didn't turn the ball over ...
LTH

Good lord. Is that your defense of that horrid coaching job?

I don't think it was a horrible coaching job...on the contrary I thought it was a well designed intentional game plan... the reason they lost that game was 2 missed FG's