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Pete Ball

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Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:08 pm
  • How this current Seahawks team is built and how Seattle is performing week in and week out is on Pete Carroll!

    It’s “Pete ball” all the time, every time regardless of Seattle’s strengths and weaknesses both offensively and defensively. I am tired of watching PC not change or evolve as a head coach. Seattle is wasting the talents of Russell Wilson, DK Metcalf, Lockett, Everett, etc. This “Pete ball” philosophy only works with a young inexperience team/ QB, a good solid O-line and a mega talented defense! Without those three elements, “Pete ball” has not and will not work.

    I was super optimistic about Shane Waldron coming over to the Haws and bringing the Rams playbook full of deception, movement, counters, screens, different personnel groupings, etc. with him. Unfortunately, Pete put an end to 99% of that stuff immediately, and is now is exclusively running the same old obvious, figured out, zero innovation “Pete ball” crap!

    It’s the same old repetitive offensive and defensive game plan, week after week and game after game. It sucks watching teams like the Patriots with a rookie QB significantly alter their game plan from week to week both on offense and defense, knowing full well that Seattle will not change “what they do” regardless of who their opponent is. I am sick and tired of watching Pete Carroll play not to lose instead of playing to win!

    With all that being said, there will be huge consequences the next couple of years if Pete Carroll stays on as the HC

    1. Russell Wilson will leave. Why would he want to stay here to continue playing “Pete ball” behind a subpar offensive line? His talent is being wasted…big time!

    2. DK Metcalf will not resign in Seattle. He is all but gone! Why would he want to be part of the “Pete ball” offense, when he could sign with a team that has a dynamic offense that will actually utilize his talents.

    3. Quality offensive/Defensive coordinators won’t want to play in Seattle for a coach that is primitive, inflexible and only sees the game through one (his) lens.

    The worst (and scary) part of all of all this is that PC thinks his current system and philosophy IS NOT the problem with this team, but rather it’s the refs or the positioning of the players, lack of talent, etc. I listed to the press conference this week (as well as the interview on 710 radio) and Pete still thinks that HIS philosophy will win in today’s NFL. When asked about play calling against Arizona, Pete said that the plays that were called were correct! PC said they needed to tweak some thing and that they are playing hard! You think so Pete? PC also said Russ did some, “really good thing”??? Really Pete?

    It was a good run, but there is no question that Pete needs to go. Let the new coach bring in new staff and then make a determination about Russell’s future here in Seattle. I have a feeling that offensive coordinators and coaches around the NFL would be salivating to coach a QB talent like Russ!

    Go Hawks!
    Celtic Wolff
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:15 pm
  • If "Pete Ball" is running the ball heavily and trying to control the clock then those are the two things that we are definitely not doing. However, I realize that the beauty in a made up term is that you can make it into whatever you want it to be at any time. So what exactly was "Pete Ball" about the offensive scheme vs. Arizona?
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:37 pm
  • AgentDib wrote:If "Pete Ball" is running the ball heavily and trying to control the clock then those are the two things that we are definitely not doing. However, I realize that the beauty in a made up term is that you can make it into whatever you want it to be at any time. So what exactly was "Pete Ball" about the offensive scheme vs. Arizona?


    The Seahawks early in the game literally ran the ball 10 straight times. Wilson didn't attempt his 3rd pass until the 2nd quarter.

    So the logic would be, well, they're just trying to setup playaction, right? That would make some sense.

    Wrong.

    They only ran playaction 6 times. Wilson was 5/6 on those plays, the incompletion was dropped by Metcalf.

    They're only running to shorten the game, not to score points, setup playaction, exploit a matchup, or anything like that.

    Rope-a-dope. Try to win it in the 4th. They consistently play the exact same way, irregardless of their personnel or the opponents personnel. They are one of the worst coached teams in the league.
    Fade
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:38 pm
  • AgentDib wrote:If "Pete Ball" is running the ball heavily and trying to control the clock then those are the two things that we are definitely not doing. However, I realize that the beauty in a made up term is that you can make it into whatever you want it to be at any time. So what exactly was "Pete Ball" about the offensive scheme vs. Arizona?


    Predictable playcalling, that's a tell tale sign of Pete Ball.

    All of the dynamic unpredictable layered McVay scheme and playcalling we were promised when Waldron was hired was gone after the Colts game.

    That's been Pete's M/O forever, when things aren't going well offensively he turtles back into what he's comfortable with and thinks works.

    Just because you haven't seen a lot of running doesn't mean Pete doesn't want to run, it just means it's been so unsuccessful since Carson got hurt that he and Waldron have had to abandon it because it's 2nd and 3rd and longs all game.

    Thus the terrible time of possession and failed 3rd down conversions..........and that's the biggest indictment of Pete this year, his offense is so inept he can't even run Pete Ball.
    Sgt. Largent
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:48 pm
  • I full expected to open this thread and only see “doesn’t work”.

    Well, it does if you have 4 leaf clovers in your pocket and somehow found the lamp with the genie that grants you 40+ wishes (or however many times Russ has nailed Pete out).
    GemCity
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:49 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    AgentDib wrote:If "Pete Ball" is running the ball heavily and trying to control the clock then those are the two things that we are definitely not doing. However, I realize that the beauty in a made up term is that you can make it into whatever you want it to be at any time. So what exactly was "Pete Ball" about the offensive scheme vs. Arizona?


    Predictable playcalling, that's a tell tale sign of Pete Ball.

    All of the dynamic unpredictable layered McVay scheme and playcalling we were promised when Waldron was hired was gone after the Colts game.

    That's been Pete's M/O forever, when things aren't going well offensively he turtles back into what he's comfortable with and thinks works.

    Just because you haven't seen a lot of running doesn't mean Pete doesn't want to run, it just means it's been so unsuccessful since Carson got hurt that he and Waldron have had to abandon it because it's 2nd and 3rd and longs all game.

    Thus the terrible time of possession and failed 3rd down conversions..........and that's the biggest indictment of Pete this year, his offense is so inept he can't even run Pete Ball.


    Yes.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:52 pm
  • The only time Russ won anything of consequence was in peak Peteball. It's a scheme that works to his strengths and covers up his deficiencies (reading defenses, quick passes, etc.)

    He's not a Manning or a Rodgers or a Brady.

    Can anyone point me to any source, though, that indicates Waldron is being withheld from running a McVay style offense by Pete? Or are we just making assumptions because we overrate the talent of our QB and assume the struggles he's had his entire career under multiple OCs are someone else's fault?

    The way people use the term here, though, is arbitrary and fits whatever need there is to divert blame from a QB who seemingly can't execute the offensive style Waldron brings.

    DCs have Russ figured out. He can hurt them anyways by being elite at deep shots and accuracy there, but when he's not perfect he can't do much because the limited stuff he's comfortable with gets taken away by scheme and Russ can't take what's given.
    pinksheets
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:58 pm
  • While we’re at it, anyone have proof Waldron is free to call plays?

    Because this offense looks the same year after year after..
    GemCity
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:04 pm
  • GemCity wrote:While we’re at it, anyone have proof Waldron is free to call plays?

    Because this offense looks the same year after year after..

    Could very well be because we've had the same QB with the same issues. We can go back every season and see Russ missing open receivers, hesitating, and hurling it down the sidelines for a jump ball. His elite deep accuracy makes that work sometimes, but it's hard to bank on that for a full season.
    pinksheets
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:08 pm
  • Definitely part of it. Hard to deny.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:10 pm
  • Whether Wilson is to blame or not is immaterial.

    Pete is a coach that is unable to adapt or change, while the NFL changes around him and makes him increasingly irrelevant.

    A top NFL QB is the most important part of a team's success, the most difficult to obtain, and one of the most accurate indicators of a team's success. (I think the only outlier is Houston & maybe the Pats)

    Pete has no value. Wilson MIGHT have value.

    So it makes sense that if Pete, a tremendously flawed coach, cannot succeed with Wilson - it does not mean someone else could not.

    As Largent pointed out, Pete cannot even run his own offense right now. That isn't Wilson's fault. It is a consequence of the roster we built and the decisions we made/make.

    Wilson does not do a lot of things you expect a QB to do well. But he does enough exceptionally well that he can succeed despite that. And the take he cannot be effective without a run game is lazy, he has been plenty effective without a run game in the past.

    Pete is has run his course. He is borderline useless right now. Wilson MIGHT be able to be effective under another coach.

    Or we could start over, never even get back to the success level we were at 3 years ago for 5+ years, and lament what might have been if Wilson starts succeeding elsewhere.

    PeteBall is a symptom of someone that has run out of ideas. Ty Willingham used to do it too. It will keep you near .500 and maybe a bit above but you will never accomplish anything of worth with it.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:36 pm
  • But we have become more and more pass heavy since 2015 and it hasn't done anything but pad Russ's stats and highlight what he can't do.

    I guess let's... Lean into that? What exactly is Russ not being allowed to do? If anything, Pete has conceded to and coddled a limited QB too much instead of holding him accountable.

    Russ hasn't gotten us anywhere without an historic defense and a top 5 run game propping him up. He contributed, absolutely, but he needs a lot of help.
    pinksheets
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:40 pm
  • You all know why we can’t agree? I think it’s very simple. It’s a combination of both. Many factors obviously but, it truly is a combination of both.

    Not all that enlightening (I used to be pro-RW btw). Maybe if one changes, the other succeeds? I don’t know…
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:42 pm
  • Rather than making up a bunch of complete nonsense, let's look at the first three drives under discussion and whether the call Succeeded or Failed.

    1) Run(S) Pass(S) Pass(F) Pass(F) Punt. Drive stalled due to two consecutive sacks on passing plays.

    2) Run(S) Run(S) Run(S), Run(S), Pass(S), Run(S), Run(S), Pitch Fumble(F), Run(F), Punt. Drive stalled due to Wilson pitching it 13 yards backwards leading to a 3rd and 20. Blaming the SIX successful earlier runs is completely ignorant, as is the resulting 3rd and 20 play call no matter what it was.

    3) Run(S) Run(S), Pass(S), Run(F), Pass(F), Pass(F), Field Goal. There is one run play that failed here (1 yard carry on first and goal), followed by two failed passes into the end zone. Without talking about coverages and individual plays nothing here looks off from a R/P perspective.

    If the opposing defense is daring you to run the ball, and running the ball is working, then it's possible that infinite consecutive running plays is the correct decision. It is entirely situational and the absolutes here are tiresome and reductive and I believe completely disingenuous. We did not run the ball 10 straight times to failure, but rather six straight times with success. And then we got away from the run after this for no good reason.

    "Predictable" also has to be the laziest possible hindsight take. I don't buy that you knew that any of these plays were coming or even understand the differences between the plays themselves. I didn't see a repeated call in these first three drives.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:51 pm
  • But Russ has always had a tremendously flawed HC calling plays.

    It is a long shot but it is a shot, what if Wilson had better play design and had a coach that could work within his limitations?

    We know what Wilson + Pete looks like and we know it isn't working and likely won't.

    Why wouldn't Wilson + ? be the next logical step?

    Is there any potential pathway to success with Pete + ?, because without a great QB you are dead in the water. And there does not seem to be a reasonable expectation of getting a great QB if you replace Wilson.

    EIther Wilson can be a great QB or he cannot - but if he can that is literally your only pathway to success besides burning everything to the ground.
    But you have at least a reasonable expectation you can get a good or even great coach if you replace Pete.

    Wouldn't it make sense to at least explore the possibility?
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:58 pm
  • AgentDib wrote:
    "Predictable" also has to be the laziest possible hindsight take. I don't buy that you knew that any of these plays were coming or even understand the differences between the plays themselves. I didn't see a repeated call in these first three drives.


    Right, that's why other defenses (Pick six in playoff game vs Rams last year), our own players and even ex players have said for years the Hawks run one of the most predictable undynamic offenses in the entire league.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... tenheimer/

    You pointing out runs or passes on series doesn't prove anything, other than you don't understand the nuance, layers and scheme of offensive playcalling.

    O-line tells, formations, where the TE's and WR's line up, same plays run on same down and distances, etc.

    Those are all on film for teams to watch, and to the person whether it be other defenses, our own players, media, you name it...........all say the same thing. The Hawk's offense is plain vanilla and predictable.

    For 11 years our offense has been Lynch or Carson pounding the rock into 8-9 man boxes and Russell running around and making plays off script. That's it, and now with no Carson, a very bad O-line and a broken Russell Wilson, a high school coach could scheme against this offense. Thus 13 pts in two games.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:59 pm
  • pinksheets wrote:But we have become more and more pass heavy since 2015 and it hasn't done anything but pad Russ's stats and highlight what he can't do.

    I guess let's... Lean into that? What exactly is Russ not being allowed to do? If anything, Pete has conceded to and coddled a limited QB too much instead of holding him accountable.

    Russ hasn't gotten us anywhere without an historic defense and a top 5 run game propping him up. He contributed, absolutely, but he needs a lot of help.


    Dan Marino didn't win much, either. I chalk it up to the Dolphins not building a better team around, Marino.

    You have to build around the QB properly. Invest in a top flight O-Line, 3-4 top receiving targets, go all in. The Seahawks currently have the 4th most cap space in the league, and our slated to have $60M next off-season.

    Just look around the league, and see what kind of investments teams make into their Offensive Lines when they get a Franchise QB. How many weapons they acquire, what kind of offensive coaches they bring on board to help foster their development. Pete would grade very low in these areas in comparison and has done a reprehensible job on offense these last 4 years, drafted D.K. in the 2nd a few years ago, that's about it.

    Pete instead chose to stick with his philosophy after 2017 when they tore it down last time. Build a defense and a running game, and just have the QB play off of it. Both the defense and the running game been terrible to mediocre in this span. The team is poorly coached, and constructed. You could trade for any QB you want and put him on the Seahawks and they will still lose, never doing anything in the playoffs. This a franchise in desperate need of change at the top.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:09 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Right, that's why other defenses (Pick six in playoff game vs Rams last year), our own players and even ex players have said for years the Hawks run one of the most predictable undynamic offenses in the entire league.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... tenheimer/

    You pointing out runs or passes on series doesn't prove anything, other than you don't understand the nuance, layers and scheme of offensive playcalling.

    O-line tells, formations, where the TE's and WR's line up, same plays run on same down and distances, etc.

    Those are all on film for teams to watch, and to the person whether it be other defenses, our own players, media, you name it...........all say the same thing. The Hawk's offense is plain vanilla and predictable.

    For 11 years our offense has been Lynch or Carson pounding the rock into 8-9 man boxes and Russell running around and making plays off script. That's it, and now with no Carson, a very bad O-line and a broken Russell Wilson, a high school coach could scheme against this offense. Thus 13 pts in two games.


    OMG! This is so right. Why can't everyone see it.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:21 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:But Russ has always had a tremendously flawed HC calling plays... It is a long shot but it is a shot, what if Wilson had better play design and had a coach that could work within his limitations?

    Do you even realize how much you're begging the question there? Yes, if PC is 'tremendously flawed' and is calling bad offensive plays then obviously we should get a look at Wilson with some better plays. The issue is that you don't actually know that.

    Russ has had a stellar career thus far despite limitations which you seem to be acknowledging. Who is to say that with a different coach and scheme he would be even better? That's completely unsubstantiated, and frankly improbable anytime you are talking about a player who has been viewed as one of the best. Isn't it possible that Bevell's RPO and a heavy dose of Lynch was enormously helpful to Russ? That having defenses stack the box against the run enabled him to use his best weapon in the downfield shot?

    Sgt. Largent wrote:You pointing out runs or passes on series doesn't prove anything

    Given the context, do you think that I was discussing run and pass outcomes to talk about predictability, or to address the awful take about our running too frequently?

    I was aware of Turbin's view that Schotty's offense was too predictable and it did carry weight then. Given that we replaced Schotty with a coach from a scheme known for creativity I'd be very interested in a take from a similarly credible source now regarding on our current offensive woes.

    Sgt. Largent wrote:For 11 years our offense has been Lynch or Carson pounding the rock into 8-9 man boxes and Russell running around and making plays off script.

    I honestly wish you weren't so wrong on that. Our deep passing game would still be explosive and we'd all still be enjoying the Let Russ Cook era.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:30 pm
  • AgentDib wrote:
    I was aware of Turbin's view that Schotty's offense was too predictable and it did carry weight then. Given that we replaced Schotty with a coach from a scheme known for creativity I'd be very interested in a take from a similarly credible source now regarding on our current offensive woes..


    Please, give me examples of any drastic creative changes from Schotty's offense to Waldron's.

    Other than the Colts game when we had Eskridge, Carson and our O-line was healthy you could see those wrinkles. But since then? It's been a slow decline back into predictable uninspired Pete Ball.

    I have absolutely NO idea how you've watched this offense this year and thought "yeah, this is such a dynamic unpredictable offense!"

    You're just arguing to argue, cause ain't no one in the entire league or in any sort of knowledgeable media agrees with you.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:35 pm
  • Begging the question?

    Are you trying to tell me that as a Seahawk fan you believe that Carroll is a good or even competent gameday coach or playcaller?

    This is an established weakness. EVEN THE GUYS THAT SUPPORT HIM STILL ACKNOWLEDGE THIS.

    Pete has established weaknesses and strengths that go all the way back to USC:

    - Picking coordinators
    - Gameday playcalling
    - Adjusting in-game
    - Little attempt at deceiving or even obscuring intent


    Are you really, as someone that has ostensibly watched the Seahawks, trying to roll back and dispute characteristics of Pete that were there even when he was putting exceptional successes together and not borderline senile?

    Just curious. It becomes pointless to even debate anyone if they literally cannot see what is in front of their face for almost a decade. It makes no sense to debate the finer points if the blatantly obvious, big stuff is just shooting over their head.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:48 pm
  • A lot of Pete criticism is fair. The main issue is when people conflate Russ Ball with "Pete Ball"
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:00 pm
  • hoxrox wrote:A lot of Pete criticism is fair. The main issue is when people conflate Russ Ball with "Pete Ball"


    Yeah, it looked totally different when Geno, and Tarvaris started.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:07 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    hoxrox wrote:A lot of Pete criticism is fair. The main issue is when people conflate Russ Ball with "Pete Ball"


    Yeah, it looked totally different when Geno, and Tarvaris started.


    Tartaris played PeteBall and earned ADB's admiration, only QB that Angry thanked after his retirement.

    When did Geno played PeteBall? Thought he played some Shaneball, got pulled just when he gotten the hand of it.

    Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:14 pm
  • Every player has strengths and weaknesses.

    Your job as a coach is to build a process that allows them to succeed through their strengths and despite their weaknesses.

    Leveraging strengths and pairing with other strengths when possible, and minimizing or mitigating weaknesses.

    It is not to lament what they cannot do or put a plan in place that 'would work if only their developed X strength or fixed Y weakness.'

    You build your plan around what you have, not around what you think would work but do not have.

    Pete builds his plan around what worked before. Regardless of whether he is equipped to execute now. That is a fair % of the problem.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:19 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:Begging the question?

    Are you trying to tell me that as a Seahawk fan you believe that Carroll is a good or even competent gameday coach or playcaller?.


    Culture building
    Organizational building
    Competition building

    All amazing Pete Carroll coaching traits.........and for a 3-4 year stretch you can add in scheme and personnel/draft mastermind. Identifying the perfect player skill set and mental makeup to fit a defensive scheme that choked the life out of other team's offenses.

    But that's where it ends, and it's been a slow decline into what we're seeing now. A coach who either refuses to change or hire the right people around him, or just can't change.

    And worse, he isn't even good at the culture, organizational, competition or personnel and drafting anymore either.

    Time. To. Go.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:32 pm
  • Celtic Wolff wrote:I was super optimistic about Shane Waldron coming over to the Haws and bringing the Rams playbook full of deception, movement, counters, screens, different personnel groupings, etc. with him.


    Read this article for some better insight as to why they are not running more of the McVay scheme:

    https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2021/11/1 ... s-seahawks
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:48 pm
  • toffee wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    hoxrox wrote:A lot of Pete criticism is fair. The main issue is when people conflate Russ Ball with "Pete Ball"


    Yeah, it looked totally different when Geno, and Tarvaris started.


    Tartaris played PeteBall and earned ADB's admiration, only QB that Angry thanked after his retirement.

    When did Geno played PeteBall? Thought he played some Shaneball, got pulled just when he gotten the hand of it.

    Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk


    Week 1 was Shane ball.




    Pete threw it in the trashcan and went back to doing things his way.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:57 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    Pete threw it in the trashcan and went back to doing things his way.


    Incorrect.

    Two months into the season, that new offense is starting to look a whole lot like the old offenses Seattle ran under Schottenheimer and Wilson’s first offensive coordinator, Darrell Bevell. That’s not necessarily an unexpected development given the quarterback’s skill set. One feature of Wilson’s play style that has really impacted Waldron’s play-calling is his apparent refusal to target the middle of the field at the intermediate levels. It could be a height thing—at 5-foot-11, seeing deep into the middle of the field could be hard for the passer—or maybe Wilson just isn’t comfortable making anticipatory throws into tighter windows. But there is no denying it’s a problem at this point.


    Wilson not targeting the middle of the field isn’t a new issue, and Waldron has adjusted to call fewer plays that attack that area. But that’s a problem for an offensive coach who cut his teeth in a system built on those exact concepts. In-breaking routes over the middle helped Jared Goff look like a real-life quarterback in Los Angeles and have turned Matthew Stafford into an MVP candidate—yet they’re nowhere to be found in this version of the McVay offense. Seattle ranks dead last in pass plays that include at least one in-breaking route over the middle of the field this season, according to TruMedia. Wilson has attempted only 28 passes with an in-breaking route, and almost all of those that were aimed at the intermediate area


    Waldron’s run game has also had to change to suit his quarterback. This offense is based around outside zone running plays, which are typically most effective when run from under center. But Wilson is at his best in the shotgun, which has forced another departure from the McVay philosophy. In 2020, the Rams ranked 30th in shotgun usage, according to Sports Info Solutions. Through Wilson’s first five starts before the finger injury this season, the Seahawks ranked 16th and had already called more shotgun runs than Los Angeles had in all of last year.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:17 pm
  • A few possibilities, your pick:

    1. Pete handcuffed both Waldon and Wilson.
    2. Pete let Waldon and Wilson working it out. Waldon couldn't get Russ to do what he wants.

    Fire Pete squad firmly believe in 1.
    Wilson couldn't read defense squad? 2

    Remember the media leaked that Wilson went into a meeting with Pete John and schotty wanting a say in personel and at play calling, then he supposedly stormed out of the meeting.
    Timing of the meeting was during the glory days let Russ cook but when let Russ cook experienced strong headwind.

    I am of the opinion that Pete is pretty hands off this season.





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    toffee
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:36 pm
  • hoxrox wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    Pete threw it in the trashcan and went back to doing things his way.


    Incorrect.

    Two months into the season, that new offense is starting to look a whole lot like the old offenses Seattle ran under Schottenheimer and Wilson’s first offensive coordinator, Darrell Bevell. That’s not necessarily an unexpected development given the quarterback’s skill set. One feature of Wilson’s play style that has really impacted Waldron’s play-calling is his apparent refusal to target the middle of the field at the intermediate levels. It could be a height thing—at 5-foot-11, seeing deep into the middle of the field could be hard for the passer—or maybe Wilson just isn’t comfortable making anticipatory throws into tighter windows. But there is no denying it’s a problem at this point.


    Wilson not targeting the middle of the field isn’t a new issue, and Waldron has adjusted to call fewer plays that attack that area. But that’s a problem for an offensive coach who cut his teeth in a system built on those exact concepts. In-breaking routes over the middle helped Jared Goff look like a real-life quarterback in Los Angeles and have turned Matthew Stafford into an MVP candidate—yet they’re nowhere to be found in this version of the McVay offense. Seattle ranks dead last in pass plays that include at least one in-breaking route over the middle of the field this season, according to TruMedia. Wilson has attempted only 28 passes with an in-breaking route, and almost all of those that were aimed at the intermediate area


    Waldron’s run game has also had to change to suit his quarterback. This offense is based around outside zone running plays, which are typically most effective when run from under center. But Wilson is at his best in the shotgun, which has forced another departure from the McVay philosophy. In 2020, the Rams ranked 30th in shotgun usage, according to Sports Info Solutions. Through Wilson’s first five starts before the finger injury this season, the Seahawks ranked 16th and had already called more shotgun runs than Los Angeles had in all of last year.


    It could be a height thing (which is a factor if there is interior push), or it could be that is where the most turnovers occur in the NFL when passing, and the head coach kind of preaches winning the red line and avoid turnovers at all costs. It would be valid and make some sense if week 1 had not happened.

    Explain week 1. (Watch the clip in the Danny Kelly tweet especially.)
    Where did this offense go?

    Again, Where did this offense go?

    Everyone with half a football brain saw it.


    Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

    After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

    So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:42 pm
  • hoxrox wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    Pete threw it in the trashcan and went back to doing things his way.


    Incorrect.

    Two months into the season, that new offense is starting to look a whole lot like the old offenses Seattle ran under Schottenheimer and Wilson’s first offensive coordinator, Darrell Bevell. That’s not necessarily an unexpected development given the quarterback’s skill set. One feature of Wilson’s play style that has really impacted Waldron’s play-calling is his apparent refusal to target the middle of the field at the intermediate levels. It could be a height thing—at 5-foot-11, seeing deep into the middle of the field could be hard for the passer—or maybe Wilson just isn’t comfortable making anticipatory throws into tighter windows. But there is no denying it’s a problem at this point.


    Wilson not targeting the middle of the field isn’t a new issue, and Waldron has adjusted to call fewer plays that attack that area. But that’s a problem for an offensive coach who cut his teeth in a system built on those exact concepts. In-breaking routes over the middle helped Jared Goff look like a real-life quarterback in Los Angeles and have turned Matthew Stafford into an MVP candidate—yet they’re nowhere to be found in this version of the McVay offense. Seattle ranks dead last in pass plays that include at least one in-breaking route over the middle of the field this season, according to TruMedia. Wilson has attempted only 28 passes with an in-breaking route, and almost all of those that were aimed at the intermediate area


    Waldron’s run game has also had to change to suit his quarterback. This offense is based around outside zone running plays, which are typically most effective when run from under center. But Wilson is at his best in the shotgun, which has forced another departure from the McVay philosophy. In 2020, the Rams ranked 30th in shotgun usage, according to Sports Info Solutions. Through Wilson’s first five starts before the finger injury this season, the Seahawks ranked 16th and had already called more shotgun runs than Los Angeles had in all of last year.



    That is great and is one person's opinion if you listen to Holmgren on KJR he says the opposite. He says the problem is players not knowing what to do, and PC still insisting on not taking chances and not throwing over the middle. Which if you read his book is one of his big no-nos on offense. That's the thing you and everyone needs to understand Wilson joined the league and has played under PCs rules straight from his book which is; run, through long, don't throw over the middle too many chances for tips, and TOs, throw outside the numbers, eat clock, and out-execute the other team. Keep it close whim in the 4th. read his book. SO all Wilson has known is that and if you look at it even in the first game for one half we got the new offense then the 2nd half back to PC ball. It's not hard dot understand. PC got a rookie that excelled in what he wanted, could run, throw long, and did not make a lot of mistakes, he has done likely to nothing to let Wilson grow beyond that, Wilson has had to do it despite him. The heat map is great, but there are others that show more passes over the middle. For every opinion, you can find that say Wilson is the problem there are 5 saying the opposite. Here is what I know all these issues you are saying is Wilson is the same issue every QB in the NFL under PC has had. The difference is Wilson is so good he succeeds despite it while the others did not.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:42 pm
  • toffee wrote:A few possibilities, your pick:

    1. Pete handcuffed both Waldon and Wilson.
    2. Pete let Waldon and Wilson working it out. Waldon couldn't get Russ to do what he wants.

    Fire Pete squad firmly believe in 1.
    Wilson couldn't read defense squad? 2

    Remember the media leaked that Wilson went into a meeting with Pete John and schotty wanting a say in personel and at play calling, then he supposedly stormed out of the meeting.
    Timing of the meeting was during the glory days let Russ cook but when let Russ cook experienced strong headwind.

    I am of the opinion that Pete is pretty hands off this season.


    Watch this clip:

    Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

    After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) It caught my attention because that is when the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

    So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:54 pm
  • There remains no evidence whatsoever that Pete did anything to change the offense before the Titans games and plenty of evidence listed elsewhere to the contrary.

    TwistedHusky wrote:This is an established weakness.

    You repeating it 1000 times doesn't establish it on the 1001th first. The subset of fans that think our problem is game day coaching, and yes it is a subset, have worn heavily tinted rose colored glasses about the overall strength of our roster for many years now.

    Our roster stopped being better then league average by 2017. I'm not going to rehash all of the numerous personnel blunders we have made over the years here but I bet you'd agree with me on most of them. The NFL pulls successful teams downwards and our front office hasn't done nearly enough to counteract that. This year the lack of overall talent has caught up to the team when a couple of their best players have not been able to play up their contract levels.

    With a sub-par roster, winning 10, 11 and 12 games the last three years can only be because our coaching has gotten more out of the roster than one should expect. It might not be in the fashion that some would prefer, but we simply were not a 12 win team on paper last season. The nonsense I see repeated around here sometimes about how we should be in the NFCG just because "Russell Wilson is our QB" is eye roll inducing.

    This season I think our problem on offense is very up in the air between poor coaching, poor personnel, and poor execution. That's one of the reasons why I think the remainder of these games are extremely important towards deciding what changes need to be made in the off-season.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:01 pm
  • It could be Pete, it could be Wilson.

    Nobody seems to know though we all have our theories.

    But again, what makes the most sense?

    The best possible outcome and least risk.

    You essentially place a bet.

    You can bet on Pete, but there is no upside, and little opportunity even if you are right.
    Maybe you can even rebuild the team, but you still need a star QB then...good luck finding one.

    You can bet on Wilson, the upside is you can still have an effective QB.
    You need a coach then but luckily great QBs can make even adequate coaches look good. You still need to rebuild the team but you could do so fairly quickly with the cap room available.


    This should literally be an obvious choice.

    If you are wrong on Wilson and you keep him?
    Well, then you tear it all down, which you were going to have to do anyway.
    You lose: 1 - 2 years, maybe 3.

    If you are wrong on Pete you keep him?
    Then you lose Wilson, you likely have to tear it all down, you probably wasted your cap space on attempts to prop up the team.
    You lose: 1 star QB, 2-4 years, and likely some cap space.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:09 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    toffee wrote:A few possibilities, your pick:

    1. Pete handcuffed both Waldon and Wilson.
    2. Pete let Waldon and Wilson working it out. Waldon couldn't get Russ to do what he wants.

    Fire Pete squad firmly believe in 1.
    Wilson couldn't read defense squad? 2

    Remember the media leaked that Wilson went into a meeting with Pete John and schotty wanting a say in personel and at play calling, then he supposedly stormed out of the meeting.
    Timing of the meeting was during the glory days let Russ cook but when let Russ cook experienced strong headwind.

    I am of the opinion that Pete is pretty hands off this season.


    Watch this clip:

    Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

    After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) It caught my attention because that is when the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

    So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.


    Yeah unfortunately their desire to pain Wilson as the issue does not allow logic or fact.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:13 pm
  • Except it can also be Waldron and Dickerson and Solari, along with every player on a suspect OL. And bad officiating outcomes, and injuries to key personnel. And it's mostly like Waldron vs. Russ on scheme vs. execution, and then the front office led by Pete and John for the lack of overall roster talent.

    Phrasing it as Pete vs. Russ does nothing to simplify a complex situation where the answer could be both or neither. It would be nice if it was just Pete sabotaging Russ at every point because then we'd still have a franchise QB next season, but that seems a lot like wishful thinking to me.

    John63 wrote:Yeah unfortunately their desire to pain Wilson as the issue does not allow logic or fact.

    Truly a critique when it comes from somebody so clearly unbiased as yourself.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:22 pm
  • Fade wrote:Watch this clip:

    Did you miss Wilson running that exact same play for 17 yards to open up week 3 against the Vikings? But don't let reality get in the way of your desire to push an agenda.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:34 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    toffee wrote:A few possibilities, your pick:

    1. Pete handcuffed both Waldon and Wilson.
    2. Pete let Waldon and Wilson working it out. Waldon couldn't get Russ to do what he wants.

    Fire Pete squad firmly believe in 1.
    Wilson couldn't read defense squad? 2

    Remember the media leaked that Wilson went into a meeting with Pete John and schotty wanting a say in personel and at play calling, then he supposedly stormed out of the meeting.
    Timing of the meeting was during the glory days let Russ cook but when let Russ cook experienced strong headwind.

    I am of the opinion that Pete is pretty hands off this season.


    Watch this clip:

    Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

    After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) It caught my attention because that is when the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

    So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.
    You sir may have a point there.

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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:58 pm
  • As usual, two things can be true but ppl tend to forget that when they care more about being right than anything else.
    So with that being said, Pete needs to go and so does Russ.

    Some guys on here asking for 'proof' of Pete not letting Waldron call plays because they know thats obviously impossible to do so in their minds that argument is 'won'. How about plausibility and/or common sense - heard of that?
    When a team/organization plays the same basic offensive (and defensive)scheme throughout changing OCs/DCs then I can go look for the common denominator and thats the HC who btw has the last word on anything especially here in Seattle. PC runs the show around here and ultimately he wants his brand of football tb played no matter who's the Coordinator. I dont feel like that is or should be news or even debatable.
    When you as a HC get to a point where in a presser you basically confirm having come to your wit's end, you're done and it absolutely should be his last season.

    As for Russ. He has never in his life played in offensive schemes like Brady, Brees or now Stafford in LA.
    With regards to the lack of sophistication in the scheme Russ has been exposed to, Chris Simms said 'he doesn't even know what he doesn't know' and 'all he knows is the way they do it, just don't turn the ball over and the defense will do the rest'. He also added 'you see him missing open receivers in the middle of the field because he's too stuck in thinking about not forcing turnovers rather than making plays and just letting it rip'
    That pretty much summed it all up + the fact that he def has lost a step or two, he doesnt seem to be escaping as much, there are almost none of his runs anymore and the more he has to play from the pocket, the more we see him struggling and honestly at times being exposed. The worse he gets with his feet/legs the more I believe that he's not close to being as good as a Rodgers or Brady. I guess after this season it'll be in both sides best interest to part ways.
    HD48
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:18 pm
  • HD48 wrote:As usual, two things can be true but ppl tend to forget that when they care more about being right than anything else.
    So with that being said, Pete needs to go and so does Russ.

    Some guys on here asking for 'proof' of Pete not letting Waldron call plays because they know thats obviously impossible to do so in their minds that argument is 'won'. How about plausibility and/or common sense - heard of that?
    When a team/organization plays the same basic offensive (and defensive)scheme throughout changing OCs/DCs then I can go look for the common denominator and thats the HC who btw has the last word on anything especially here in Seattle. PC runs the show around here and ultimately he wants his brand of football tb played no matter who's the Coordinator. I dont feel like that is or should be news or even debatable.
    When you as a HC get to a point where in a presser you basically confirm having come to your wit's end, you're done and it absolutely should be his last season.

    As for Russ. He has never in his life played in offensive schemes like Brady, Brees or now Stafford in LA.
    With regards to the lack of sophistication in the scheme Russ has been exposed to, Chris Simms said 'he doesn't even know what he doesn't know' and 'all he knows is the way they do it, just don't turn the ball over and the defense will do the rest'. He also added 'you see him missing open receivers in the middle of the field because he's too stuck in thinking about not forcing turnovers rather than making plays and just letting it rip'
    That pretty much summed it all up + the fact that he def has lost a step or two, he doesnt seem to be escaping as much, there are almost none of his runs anymore and the more he has to play from the pocket, the more we see him struggling and honestly at times being exposed. The worse he gets with his feet/legs the more I believe that he's not close to being as good as a Rodgers or Brady. I guess after this season it'll be in both sides best interest to part ways.



    I hear SImss and agreed with most of what he said except the running part last year he has over 500 yards and prior to injury over 100. and before the injury, he made several Russ-type runs and scrambles. That said and as many have said the PC style of play is imprinted all over the offense and has hurt Wilson's development a lot. DO I think it is too late. now you can tell by the first half to eh first game before PC took over again. The problem is it will not be with PC as a coach as PC will never allow the offense to stray for too long or to far from what he wants.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:35 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

    After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

    So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.


    No one is debating that the week 1 offense looked great, and unlike what we've seen before.

    And there are many things to fault the HC for.

    But to think he put the kibosh on something that was so successful, so he could run things his way doesn't make sense at all. A coach known for smashmouth. Yet 40 passes to 11 runs against Green Bay and you’re yammerin about Pete Ball? In light of all evidence that suggests otherwise, you're choosing a narrative.

    Bottom line. Russell's unique skillset and tendencies have been figured out by the rest of the league. This makes it hard for ANY OC to draw up an effective and sustainable offense.

    Now could he be coached out of those tendencies? That's another debate altogether.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:54 pm
  • HD48 wrote:As usual, two things can be true but ppl tend to forget that when they care more about being right than anything else.
    So with that being said, Pete needs to go and so does Russ.

    Some guys on here asking for 'proof' of Pete not letting Waldron call plays because they know thats obviously impossible to do so in their minds that argument is 'won'. How about plausibility and/or common sense - heard of that?
    When a team/organization plays the same basic offensive (and defensive)scheme throughout changing OCs/DCs then I can go look for the common denominator and thats the HC who btw has the last word on anything especially here in Seattle. PC runs the show around here and ultimately he wants his brand of football tb played no matter who's the Coordinator. I dont feel like that is or should be news or even debatable.
    When you as a HC get to a point where in a presser you basically confirm having come to your wit's end, you're done and it absolutely should be his last season.

    As for Russ. He has never in his life played in offensive schemes like Brady, Brees or now Stafford in LA.
    With regards to the lack of sophistication in the scheme Russ has been exposed to, Chris Simms said 'he doesn't even know what he doesn't know' and 'all he knows is the way they do it, just don't turn the ball over and the defense will do the rest'. He also added 'you see him missing open receivers in the middle of the field because he's too stuck in thinking about not forcing turnovers rather than making plays and just letting it rip'
    That pretty much summed it all up + the fact that he def has lost a step or two, he doesnt seem to be escaping as much, there are almost none of his runs anymore and the more he has to play from the pocket, the more we see him struggling and honestly at times being exposed. The worse he gets with his feet/legs the more I believe that he's not close to being as good as a Rodgers or Brady. I guess after this season it'll be in both sides best interest to part ways.


    Adding on to this.

    He doesn't have the legs to overcome dysfunctional, bad O-Line play to the degree he once did anymore. But when he gets protection his numbers are still videogame breaking.

    People around here will feel different, If Wilson goes to say, New Orleans. Top flight O-Line, which is all Wilson needs.
    And he is back to putting up numbers. Y'see Wilson lost his cheat code elusiveness back in 2018, it didn't stop him from putting up the best numbers of his career from then until this bad stretch. But like how Dak played like crap last week with a banged up O-Line. Wilson is no longer immune to the same effects.

    Meanwhile, Seattle is stuck with Pete turning the team into the Lions. It really reminds me of the dysfunctional McCarthy, Rodgers years. Once the QB stops believing in the coach, it's over.

    Twisted is right. If you have to place your bets. Betting on Pete = 0% chance. The Packers would be a laughing stock right now had they kept McCarthy and traded Rodgers.

    First, Pete has to go. It is time.
    Second, the new regime evaluates if it's better to start over entirely, or revamp around Wilson. Wilson may not give them a choice. But the common factor is Pete cannot be involved going forward.

    Pete is the worst coach in the division, and his personnel track record w/the assistance of JS since 2013 in both Free Agency & the Draft shows they are incapable, and broken as a partnership. He is 70 and you have to go back nearly a decade to point to the last time they killed an off-season.

    Understandably, you're not going to kill it every off-season, but it can't be this anemic for this long at failing to bring in and/or develop blue chip talent. The have some nice role-players, bit-parts, and depth. But like Wilson said 2 years ago, they needed some stars. The front office responded by spending $50M on JAGs. Panicked, and sold the farm for Adams a few months later. That offseason is why they're at where they're at.

    Change at the top must occur, or SeaLions it is. Whether Wilson is here or not.
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:03 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    HD48 wrote:As usual, two things can be true but ppl tend to forget that when they care more about being right than anything else.
    So with that being said, Pete needs to go and so does Russ.

    Some guys on here asking for 'proof' of Pete not letting Waldron call plays because they know thats obviously impossible to do so in their minds that argument is 'won'. How about plausibility and/or common sense - heard of that?
    When a team/organization plays the same basic offensive (and defensive)scheme throughout changing OCs/DCs then I can go look for the common denominator and thats the HC who btw has the last word on anything especially here in Seattle. PC runs the show around here and ultimately he wants his brand of football tb played no matter who's the Coordinator. I dont feel like that is or should be news or even debatable.
    When you as a HC get to a point where in a presser you basically confirm having come to your wit's end, you're done and it absolutely should be his last season.

    As for Russ. He has never in his life played in offensive schemes like Brady, Brees or now Stafford in LA.
    With regards to the lack of sophistication in the scheme Russ has been exposed to, Chris Simms said 'he doesn't even know what he doesn't know' and 'all he knows is the way they do it, just don't turn the ball over and the defense will do the rest'. He also added 'you see him missing open receivers in the middle of the field because he's too stuck in thinking about not forcing turnovers rather than making plays and just letting it rip'
    That pretty much summed it all up + the fact that he def has lost a step or two, he doesnt seem to be escaping as much, there are almost none of his runs anymore and the more he has to play from the pocket, the more we see him struggling and honestly at times being exposed. The worse he gets with his feet/legs the more I believe that he's not close to being as good as a Rodgers or Brady. I guess after this season it'll be in both sides best interest to part ways.


    Adding on to this.

    He doesn't have the legs to overcome dysfunctional, bad O-Line play to the degree he once did anymore. But when he gets protection his numbers are still videogame breaking.

    People around here will feel different, If Wilson goes to say, New Orleans. Top flight O-Line, which is all Wilson needs.
    And he is back to putting up numbers. Y'see Wilson lost his cheat code elusiveness back in 2018, it didn't stop him from putting up the best numbers of his career from then until this bad stretch. But like how Dak played like crap last week with a banged up O-Line. Wilson is no longer immune to the same effects.

    Meanwhile, Seattle is stuck with Pete turning the team into the Lions. It really reminds me of the dysfunctional McCarthy, Rodgers years. Once the QB stops believing in the coach, it's over.

    Twisted is right. If you have to place your bets. Betting on Pete = 0% chance. The Packers would be a laughing stock right now had they kept McCarthy and traded Rodgers.

    First, Pete has to go. It is time.
    Second, the new regime evaluates if it's better to start over entirely, or revamp around Wilson. Wilson may not give them a choice. But the common factor is Pete cannot be involved going forward.

    Pete is the worst coach in the division, and his personnel track record w/the assistance of JS since 2013 in both Free Agency & the Draft shows they are incapable, and broken as a partnership. He is 70 and you have to go back nearly a decade to point to the last time they killed an off-season.

    Understandably, you're not going to kill it every off-season, but it can't be this anemic for this long at failing to bring in and/or develop blue chip talent. The have some nice role-players, bit-parts, and depth. But like Wilson said 2 years ago, they needed some stars. The front office responded by spending $50M on JAGs. Panicked, and sold the farm for Adams a few months later. That offseason is why they're at where they're at.

    Change at the top must occur, or SeaLions it is. Whether Wilson is here or not.
    We should take a discount and trade Wilson to Saints. He has done so much for the Hawks, it's time for the Hawks to take one for him. Right?

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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:06 pm
  • hoxrox wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

    After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

    So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.


    No one is debating that the week 1 offense looked great, and unlike what we've seen before.

    And there are many things to fault the HC for.

    But to think he put the kibosh on something that was so successful, so he could run things his way doesn't make sense at all. A coach known for smashmouth. Yet 40 passes to 11 runs against Green Bay and you’re yammerin about Pete Ball? In light of all evidence that suggests otherwise, you're choosing a narrative.

    Bottom line. Russell's unique skillset and tendencies have been figured out by the rest of the league. This makes it hard for ANY OC to draw up an effective and sustainable offense.

    Now could he be coached out of those tendencies? That's another debate altogether.


    Why not go back to that under center, outside zone, zoom motion, boot action offense from week 1? Why would Shane implement something that looked like straight out of the Rams playbook, and have that much success, and then abandon it?

    They are still having crazy success on playaction, and rollouts. It hasn't been figured out. They just stopped doing it outside of handful of times a game. Why?
    Fade
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:10 pm
  • toffee wrote: He has done so much for the Hawks, it's time for the Hawks to take one for him. Right?

    Absolutely not. I'm just pointing out that people who are b!@ch about Wilson now. Will be b!@ch if he got traded, and started balling out. Especially if the picks he would garner don't amount to anything.
    Fade
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:01 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    hoxrox wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

    After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

    So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.


    No one is debating that the week 1 offense looked great, and unlike what we've seen before.

    And there are many things to fault the HC for.

    But to think he put the kibosh on something that was so successful, so he could run things his way doesn't make sense at all. A coach known for smashmouth. Yet 40 passes to 11 runs against Green Bay and you’re yammerin about Pete Ball? In light of all evidence that suggests otherwise, you're choosing a narrative.

    Bottom line. Russell's unique skillset and tendencies have been figured out by the rest of the league. This makes it hard for ANY OC to draw up an effective and sustainable offense.

    Now could he be coached out of those tendencies? That's another debate altogether.


    Why not go back to that under center, outside zone, zoom motion, boot action offense from week 1? Why would Shane implement something that looked like straight out of the Rams playbook, and have that much success, and then abandon it?

    They are still having crazy success on playaction, and rollouts. It hasn't been figured out. They just stopped doing it outside of handful of times a game. Why?


    These are fair questions. I just wouldn't automatically assume it's because Pete isn't open to running these concepts, or why even allow it in the first place. At the end of the day, he just wants to win.
    hoxrox
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Re: Pete Ball
Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:21 pm
  • hoxrox wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    hoxrox wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

    After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

    So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.


    No one is debating that the week 1 offense looked great, and unlike what we've seen before.

    And there are many things to fault the HC for.

    But to think he put the kibosh on something that was so successful, so he could run things his way doesn't make sense at all. A coach known for smashmouth. Yet 40 passes to 11 runs against Green Bay and you’re yammerin about Pete Ball? In light of all evidence that suggests otherwise, you're choosing a narrative.

    Bottom line. Russell's unique skillset and tendencies have been figured out by the rest of the league. This makes it hard for ANY OC to draw up an effective and sustainable offense.

    Now could he be coached out of those tendencies? That's another debate altogether.


    Why not go back to that under center, outside zone, zoom motion, boot action offense from week 1? Why would Shane implement something that looked like straight out of the Rams playbook, and have that much success, and then abandon it?

    They are still having crazy success on playaction, and rollouts. It hasn't been figured out. They just stopped doing it outside of handful of times a game. Why?


    These are fair questions. I just wouldn't automatically assume it's because Pete isn't open to running these concepts, or why even allow it in the first place. At the end of the day, he just wants to win.

    That's my question for people who subscribe to the Pete ruins the party theory. Why allow all that stuff to be implemented all through camp leading up to game 1 in the first place? Not 1 sane person would do that. Add that extremely unlikey piece of evidence to the lack of seeing Pete's preferred run the ball all day offense and it just doesn't wash. This theory also requires one to accept that Russell has no material affect on these problems, which is practically impossible for someone with the ball in their hands every play.

    This whole thing to me breaks down to whether one thinks Russell is capable or not. Simple as that. Everything else is just noise
    OrangeGravy
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Re: Pete Ball
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:37 am
  • hoxrox wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

    After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

    So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.


    No one is debating that the week 1 offense looked great, and unlike what we've seen before.

    And there are many things to fault the HC for.

    But to think he put the kibosh on something that was so successful, so he could run things his way doesn't make sense at all. A coach known for smashmouth. Yet 40 passes to 11 runs against Green Bay and you’re yammerin about Pete Ball? In light of all evidence that suggests otherwise, you're choosing a narrative.

    Bottom line. Russell's unique skillset and tendencies have been figured out by the rest of the league. This makes it hard for ANY OC to draw up an effective and sustainable offense.

    Now could he be coached out of those tendencies? That's another debate altogether.


    Pete has a history of of altering/changing this Seattle offense REGARDLESS of who the offensive coordinator is. Lets not pretend that Pete is hands-off with this Seahawk offense and gives the OC autonomy to implement the game plan from week to week. In fact, its the exact opposite!

    Evidence? Remember the beginning of last season with the "let Russ cook" offense? The first few games (5-0), the Seahawk "let russ cook" offense was extremely successful. Then, when Seattle faced good, quality teams like the Bills, Rams and cardinals (1-3), and Russ threw a couple interceptions (more 2-high safety looks), Pete started to panic and CHANGED this extremely effective offense back to the same old "Pete Ball" crap! Remember PC saying, “We needed to run the football more (down the stretch) and (have) more commitment (to it) to run them out of their fronts..." and “As the season unfolded, it kind of played its way into the style of defenses we were playing and we didn’t adapt as well as I would have liked to,” Carroll said. “And that’s not what the fans want to hear because they want to hear ‘keep throwing the thing all over the yard.’ I don’t care about that..." and “As we came on defensively, I adjusted us some to make sure we were really taking care of the football knowing we could win some games by the way we were playing defense, which you’ve seen us do that for 10 years around here,”

    Again, this is Pete's offense and Pete's defense all day every day! Another component of Pete Ball is little to no adjustments from week to week. Evidence? Just this week when Pete was "disappointed" and "had no answer's", Tyler Lockett said the following:

    "When you look at what teams are doing consistently week in and week out, nobody is doing that against us, so we have to, like I said, I keep saying adjust because [b]we have to understand what teams are doing[/b]," Lockett continued. "Once we finally figure out the game plan, that’s when we are able to get moving. That’s the thing that we are all trying to figure out and learn because teams are just throwing out different coverages. When you’re getting ready for a week and you see what they are doing consistently, and they aren’t playing any of the stuff they normally do, you have to be able to figure things out faster.”When asked about Lockett's remarks during his Monday press conference, Carroll didn't concur, initially responding, "You're assuming that he's right."

    Look, Pete Carroll is a classy head coach and a consummate professional. He will always be remembered for brining a super bowel victory to Seattle! NOBODY can take that away from this Seattle Seahawks organization or the city of Seattle. Sometime, however, its just time! Coaches who stay with one organization for over a decade (Bill Belichick, Sean Payton, Mike Tomlin, John Harbaugh, Pete Carroll) are extremely rare. The NFL is always changing and evolving. Offenses AND defenses are eventually figured out! This Seahaws team has been in decline the past few years, slowly and painfully. That's why Seattle needs to go in another direction. A fresh start with a new head coach that can bring a new innovative philosophy!

    Go Hawks!
    Celtic Wolff
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Re: Pete Ball
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:29 am
  • Fade wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Right, that's why other defenses (Pick six in playoff game vs Rams last year), our own players and even ex players have said for years the Hawks run one of the most predictable undynamic offenses in the entire league.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... tenheimer/

    You pointing out runs or passes on series doesn't prove anything, other than you don't understand the nuance, layers and scheme of offensive playcalling.

    O-line tells, formations, where the TE's and WR's line up, same plays run on same down and distances, etc.

    Those are all on film for teams to watch, and to the person whether it be other defenses, our own players, media, you name it...........all say the same thing. The Hawk's offense is plain vanilla and predictable.

    For 11 years our offense has been Lynch or Carson pounding the rock into 8-9 man boxes and Russell running around and making plays off script. That's it, and now with no Carson, a very bad O-line and a broken Russell Wilson, a high school coach could scheme against this offense. Thus 13 pts in two games.


    OMG! This is so right. Why can't everyone see it.


    Mind numbing isnt it?
    pittpnthrs
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