A taste of what to expect this season...Lock 2021 highlights

BlueTalon

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The coaching staff was substandard
How on earth would you know that? There was dysfunction between Russ and multiple OCs. If Russ wasn't running the offense properly, how would you ever know where the fault lies?

Do you think three separate Offensive Coordinators designed offenses that tended to avoid the middle of the field?
 
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Donn2390

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It isn't what Pete says that matters, his actions indicate what is important to him.

If he cared about scoring points in the 1st half, he would have prioritized it. He didn't.

But you might be right on the scoring.
Before last year, the average winner needed to score 24 to win. This is why at the start of the year I stated that our goal per game needed to be 28.

There was, however, one of the biggest drops in scoring last year - almost 5 pts per game. So does the NFL accept that or clamp down to encourage scoring?

We will see.
You need to take up knitting, you sure don't know anything about football, people, or coaches. It's OK to express an opinion, but you go way past that point. I've read your ignorant posts for a long time and had to bite my tongue, waiting for PC and the team to shut you up, but I reached the breaking point.
Now I'll go back to the silent mode nd just watch you to continue to make a fool of yourself. No one or nothing anyone says will change your mind, so go blow some more smoke, you're good at it..
 

TwistedHusky

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That is amusing.
So just to clarify, after watching the Seahawks for the past decade, especially the past 5-7 years, you think you 'know' football but seem to believe (or imply?) that Carroll does indeed prioritize scoring in the 1st half?

Or even values it?
Just curious, because that was pretty hilarious. If that is your analysis, I found it incredibly entertaining.
 
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Spin Doctor

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The problem with blaming Wilson is that typically at end of games or in the final minutes of a half, if we needed a drive to score...Wilson delivered.
Weirdly, the less opportunity he had to consult with his coaches and the more he had to run on instinct - the better he seemed to do.

This even included passing to the TEs and using the middle of the field.
So it is possible that all of this problem scoring is the result of Wilson's weaknesses. But then we have to account for the above issue.

The less Carroll and his coaches were able to touch the offense, the better Wilson seemed to do.
This whole thing about blaming Wilson for all the problems with the offense is going to be proven if the the Broncos have a good offense (not this coming season but the one after that).

And we won't be able to use the excuse that we have a new QB in another year, so I guess we are stuck waiting 2 years to find out who is right.

But it feels like a lot of this cannot be explained away as being a problem with Wilson, because he seemed to produce well when they relied on him.

We've gone over this issue ad nauseum, and we won't know for 2 years. But I don't think people will EVER consider offense a strength for Carroll and nothing in the recent past gives us a reason to expect he will even be average.
I absolutely don't think that Carroll is a great offensive mind. In fact, I think the offense is one of his largest weak spots. After all, he kept guys like Bevell and Cable around way longer than they should have. Bevell has been a train wreck wherever he has gone and his offenses have always looked like a clown show.

That being said, I also think Wilson was a problem. He wanted to do his own things and he was overly indulgent as a player. Some of the problems we've had as fans with the offense were on Wilson. The not passing over the middle, over reliance on the knockout punch, and outright not seeing open receivers. This doesn't make Wilson a bad player -- but at some point he stopped growing and he threw a fit when Schottenheimer wanted to clean his game up.

Wilson was the modern iteration of Ben Roethlisberger. Still a good QB, but one with significant flaws and a certain sort of ego that hindered the progress of said player. Flawed as Wilson was though, he still was the main driving force of the Seahawks for a long time.
 

Rosco

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I absolutely don't think that Carroll is a great offensive mind. In fact, I think the offense is one of his largest weak spots. After all, he kept guys like Bevell and Cable around way longer than they should have. Bevell has been a train wreck wherever he has gone and his offenses have always looked like a clown show.

That being said, I also think Wilson was a problem. He wanted to do his own things and he was overly indulgent as a player. Some of the problems we've had as fans with the offense were on Wilson. The not passing over the middle, over reliance on the knockout punch, and outright not seeing open receivers. This doesn't make Wilson a bad player -- but at some point he stopped growing and he threw a fit when Schottenheimer wanted to clean his game up.

Wilson was the modern iteration of Ben Roethlisberger. Still a good QB, but one with significant flaws and a certain sort of ego that hindered the progress of said player. Flawed as Wilson was though, he still was the main driving force of the Seahawks for a long time.
I imagine PC would not be a great offensive mind. He made his bones as a defensive coordinator.
 

BASF

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You mean when he started holding people accountable that needed to be held accountable?
You don't go on the talk show circuit to "hold people accountable" that is done in the locker room and training facilities. You go on the talk show for a PR campaign. Which worked beautifully on marks to the point that Wilson came out blameless for some. His airing this started when we "Let Russ Cook" against the Rams in the playoff game and he flamed out spectacularly.
 

pittpnthrs

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You don't go on the talk show circuit to "hold people accountable" that is done in the locker room and training facilities. You go on the talk show for a PR campaign. Which worked beautifully on marks to the point that Wilson came out blameless for some. His airing this started when we "Let Russ Cook" against the Rams in the playoff game and he flamed out spectacularly.

I agree it was on purpose. It was after the ownership signed Carroll to a 5 year extension. The writing was on the wall after that and Russ wanted out. Publicly complaining opened the flood gates and alerted the rest of the league that he was going to be available soon. I dont blame him a bit.

You keep bringing up the Rams game blaming Wilson and never mentioning the horrid game plan and coaching debacle that was on display. It was the kind of coaching that we Seahawk fans have grown accustomed to from Pete Carroll in the post season. Lets not mention how the defense gave up 130 yards on the ground to Akers and allowed a QB with 4 fingers to march down the field over and over again.
 

pittpnthrs

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I've read your ignorant posts for a long time and had to bite my tongue, waiting for PC and the team to shut you up, but I reached the breaking point.

You reached a breaking point because PC and the team could never trump the validity of his argument.
 

flv2

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How on earth would you know that? There was disfunction between Russ and multiple OCs. If Russ wasn't running the offense properly, how would you ever know where the fault lies?

Do you think three separate Offensive Coordinators designed offenses that tended to avoid the middle of the field?
I won't speak for the other 2 but in Schottenheimer's case he always designed the offense around the key players and their strengths. This pragmatism was probably his best trait as an OC. Unfortunately his flaws brought him down to, (or slightly below), the average standard for an NFL OC.
 

chrispy

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1)Wilson won in Seattle because of PC/JS not in spite of them. They drafted him. They chose him. In any reality, other teams would have had him on the bench as too short and a late pick. The FO chose Wilson and ultimately Wilson chose a change. -no judgement, just history.
2)No one has brought up the biggest exception to the argument: Kurt Warner. This year's QB will probably fall between Tarvaris Jackson and Kurt Warner. They'll probably be a one-year place holder, just like TJack. But... maybe a small chance they'll break out and not end up bagging groceries and turn out to be a SB winning HOFer. You can argue probabilities, but you can't argue definitives.
3)If Wilson had stayed, there's no way the Seahawks are a fringe playoff team. The team would have to get rid of about a dozen (more, in addition to Wagner) players to meet Cap. ...and remember the first 2 picks in the draft were from Den (Cross, Mafe), so we're out 2 more cheap starters.
 

keasley45

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The problem with blaming Wilson is that typically at end of games or in the final minutes of a half, if we needed a drive to score...Wilson delivered.
Weirdly, the less opportunity he had to consult with his coaches and the more he had to run on instinct - the better he seemed to do.

This even included passing to the TEs and using the middle of the field.
So it is possible that all of this problem scoring is the result of Wilson's weaknesses. But then we have to account for the above issue.

The less Carroll and his coaches were able to touch the offense, the better Wilson seemed to do.
This whole thing about blaming Wilson for all the problems with the offense is going to be proven if the the Broncos have a good offense (not this coming season but the one after that).

And we won't be able to use the excuse that we have a new QB in another year, so I guess we are stuck waiting 2 years to find out who is right.

But it feels like a lot of this cannot be explained away as being a problem with Wilson, because he seemed to produce well when they relied on him.

We've gone over this issue ad nauseum, and we won't know for 2 years. But I don't think people will EVER consider offense a strength for Carroll and nothing in the recent past gives us a reason to expect he will even be average.
Wilson succeeded at the end of halves because it was then that he would usually be more willing to scramble and buy time. It was then that he would stop running the game plan that he struggled with and basically made sh!t up. For years, players on opposing defenses would go on and on about how what made Wilson dangerous was his knack for going off script and creating. There was no planning for it. If russ could intentionally buy himself 4 seconds, someone would be open, pretty much without fail. Before that 4 seconds, hitting receivers when they were coming open on something other than a fly or curl or quick slant... not so much.

The offense we ran here was Wilson's. Last year was evidence of that. Same plays. Same style. Same stuff Wilson's been going to for years. Wilson got one guy ehoncalled him on his BS fired and then rsn what he wanted, ratherbthan ehat the new OC thought was best.

There was an article written a few weeks ago breaking down exactly what Wilson ran here and how if Denver feels as though they're getting some dynamic, unleashed Rodgers or Mahomes styled play, they're going to be disappointed. Wilson is Wilson and has been from the beginning.

The LOB never once expressed criticism for outdated game plans or schemes that didn't work. They DID express criticism for a coach who wouldn't come down on his qb when he sucked. They knew that the problem wasn't the scheme, but a player who didn't do his job, but got a pass because he'd find a way to make up for it with his incredible talent. But in the meantime, the defense was responsible for keeping games close and even Makin it possible for Russ to have a chance to put together a game winning drive in the end.

It is beyond doubt that Pete coddled and protected Russ to the end. So if the offense wasn't moving the ball through the air to keep the chains moving, but Russ worked his magic, there was zero talk about why the offense stank, because that would expose Russ. Rather, Pete went on about how the game was just 'beautiful '.... 'exactly the way he wanted to see it'. Do you honestly think if the score was 33 to 14, instead of a 17 to 14 nail-biter, Pete would have ever said... 'well, I don't know why we had to score that much... it's risky'?.. hell no. He re-framed his assessment of the performance based on what he knew it would only ever be with Russ - close, because we could never move the chains through the air, but perfect in that we'd 'find a way'.

It was exactly that messaging and lack of accountability for the qb that brought down the house. The D got tired of carrying the water for the team.

Russ's game was and is improvisation, play action, and a handful of 'alert ' audibles that work when a lesser defense shows its hand.

That's it.

And if you watch tape of games where over and over and over and over again, there are plays that worked but weren't executed... it becomes a whole helluva lot clearer. It was clear to Tate. It was clear to ADB. It's been made clear to DK. The only dude that has managed to flourish in Russ's scheme is Tyler because of his uncanny connection with Russ. He ran the play, and then quickly freelanced himself to find the opening in coverage that he knew Russ would see too.

Will we become an explosive dynamo under Geno or Lock? Probably not, because they will give Pete the same cause for caution that Russ did - limitations in hitting the risky throws with anticipation. Russ was deadly accurate in throwing the plays that HE was comfortable with. The rest, he'd bail on, buy time, and hit the guy he wanted when he was open.

But if either Geno or Lock show a knack for moving the chains, getting us in scoring position, and cashing in 3s and 6s when we are there, Pete will take whatever the gameplan yields, without a doubt.

The truth of what went down here won't take 2 years to show itself. Watch the tape, it already has. Denver and everyone else will see by season's end.

And when it does, the cries of how Pete ruined Russ's career and turned him into a shell-shocked shadow of himself will begin. For many, that will be easier than admitting Mr Unlimited was anything but.
 

fullquartpress

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Trying to stay on topic,
on the lost read option, should Lock have:
1. played safer and let Gordon have the ball
2. developed stronger hands
3. had quicker feet to run outside of #90
Broncos had 2nd and goal from the 9.
Bengals #90(Kareem)seemed patient, and didn't slant toward Gordon, and he may have been guessing 'Lock', rather than 'Gordon'
Also, I'm not sure why Bronco #87 Noah Fant ran far from the developing play.
The wild play is at 8:59 of this video:

 
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Rosco

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Trying to stay on topic,
on the lost read option, should Lock have:
1. played safer and let Gordon have the ball
2. developed stronger hands
3. had quicker feet to run outside of #90
Broncos had 2nd and goal from the 9.
Bengals #90(Kareem)seemed patient, and didn't slant toward Gordon, and he may have been guessing 'Lock', rather than 'Gordon'
Also, I'm not sure why Bronco #87 Noah Fant ran far from the developing play.
The wild play is at 8:59 of this video:


Good play by Cincinnati. What’s your point?
 

fullquartpress

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Good play by Cincinnati. What’s your point?
My point wasn't a point, it was a question: if QB has read option play doubt....just give it to the RB?
(I doubt if Gordon would have scored, but Broncos probably stilll have the ball.)
 
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toffee

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How on earth would you know that? There was dysfunction between Russ and multiple OCs. If Russ wasn't running the offense properly, how would you ever know where the fault lies?

Do you think three separate Offensive Coordinators designed offenses that tended to avoid the middle of the field?
I think the word for our OC and DC should be unproven, not substandard.
 

Rosco

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My point wasn't a point, it was a question: if QB has read option play doubt....just give it to the RB?
(I doubt if Gordon would have scored, but Broncos probably stilll have the ball.)
Or Cincinnati doesn’t make the play. Drew Lock is a QB not a RB. That was just a great play made by Cincinnati.
 

TwistedHusky

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Keasely,
I agree with about 80-90% of your post.
Fun fact, I was actually labeled a 'Wilson hater' for pointing it out a few years ago.
That is pretty amusing that we agree on so much...

The area we differ is that, despite the challenges Wilson brings to the table - and I am well aware of them, it still seems his ceiling is much higher than Pete's right now.
We don't have Wilson. So debates about how Wilson could have been better or what he should have been doing seem misplaced.
(The only reason it is relevant is that people are using it as excuses for why Carroll came up short so often.)

It seems pretty clear that much off Carroll's shortcomings were offset by Wilson. (Again, we don't have Wilson so the debate isn't what 'fixes' him.)
The debate is how we do without him, and I suspect that Pete's shortcomings will be a problem without someone like Wilson to be the wildcard there.
I still think that Pete's way of coaching will win him enough games to beat .500. Still not enough to be any kind of contender or even reasonable playoff threat again, not without a top 10 QB dropping into our lap - and even then it might need to be top 5-7.

But very few QBs can overcome the issues Pete creates, and most of them have to wildcards like Wilson.
I suspect a better offensive coach could turn Wilson around. But it isn't a given.
Like you, I think that it will take 2 years to find out.
 

fullquartpress

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Or Cincinnati doesn’t make the play. Drew Lock is a QB not a RB. That was just a great play made by Cincinnati.
I'll try to compare the play with future read options that I see.
I still don't know why Shurmur wanted Fant detached from the play, as decoy.
I thought it was also quite energetic for Lock to punch the ball out of Kareem's hands, and Kareem's 'down by contact' ruling wasn't completely obvious...maybe Lock got a finger on #90, as Kareem fell, at the 12 yard line.
I also asked my question because this thread's subject has become RW's absence,...and not the future.
 
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GemCity

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I’ve heard for years how PC only needs a game manager at QB. Heard it when Russ was injured.
You know who you are. Stick to your guns. Don’t back out now.

I think Russ is going to light it up in Denver.
But, he’s on another team now so regardless if he does or doesn’t, none of it effects the Hawks. Perhaps it validates a sneaking suspicion surrounding PCs offensive approach.

But sheeshus H. If you were anti-Russ, swore up and down all we need is a game manager, liked Geno back there more than Russ, don’t backtrack now.
 

TwistedHusky

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The Wilson thing seems like a canard.

Either way, Wilson is gone. Yes, he went off script often. Was that because he couldn't produce using the script or because the script was not adequate? Does it matter now? He is gone.

If the problem was just Wilson this whole time (?!?!?) well...problem solved. Now Pete can produce unencumbered.

I look forward to all this 'improvement'
 
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