Brunell's Top Two Tiers NFL QB

[brimsalabim]

Seahawks do have a better running game but a big part of that is our offense is dedicated to run first. We have run first blocking schemes and drafted receivers with routes designed to run them into the defenders so that they can block down field. The colts play design and OL are designed for pass protection. Luck should finally earn his praise in the upcoming season though. I dare so that no QB in the cap era has had as talented a collection of players to work with.

 

[Weadoption]

The Luck vs Wilson thing is lame. From a pure scheme standpoint statistically speaking it's like comparing D Marino to Phil Simms imo.
One guy is gonna put up bigger numbers in the air overall and probably go into the HOF ringless and the other guy is gonna get more rings playing in a ball control misdirection system.
Giants used to grind peeps up to too back in the Parcells days winning with D, power running and smart/clutch passing usually to their TEs.
Scarily familiar u Hawks is.......cept u need a Jim Burt.

 

[RichNhansom]

Seahawks do have a better running game but a big part of that is our offense is dedicated to run first. We have run first blocking schemes and drafted receivers with routes designed to run them into the defenders so that they can block down field. The colts play design and OL are designed for pass protection. Luck should finally earn his praise in the upcoming season though. I dare so that no QB in the cap era has had as talented a collection of players to work with.

You are correct and the thing about it is if you adjust Wilson's rushing yards to the league average for a QB, the Seahawks would have been ranked 10th. It was Wilson's 850 yards rushing that bumps them to the #1 running offense. Defenses had to worry about Wilson scrambling also so Lynch and company benefited from that also.

Defenses often stack the box or go single high safety for the purpose of slowing down our running game but also designate a defender to spy Wilson. They are able to do that because we don't have a receiver corp that threatens to make them pay. They can go man up on our entire receiving corp including TE and dedicate every free man to stopping the run. Put a non mobile QB back there and that spy becomes another defender stopping the run.

The Colts running game will always be garbage by design. Gore will likely have his worst season there because the system is designed for passing. They will always be a big fantasy team but I doubt they win any real trophy's. The only reason they went deep last year was due to schedule and lucky breaks getting the right opponents at the right time. The Patriots exposed them for what they are, a slightly above average team that benefits from no division opponents and the AFC's lack of talent. A relatively healthy Manning or any QB not named Ryan Lindley and they lose either of those playoff games.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Luck and Wilson aren't even close.

This board is the most reasonable to read of all the fan bases in the NFL.......until people bring up Wilson.

He belongs in the 2nd tier and he belongs well beneath Luck.

Using superbowls as a metric is pointless considering this is a TEAM sport; and Wilson has had a FAR better special teams unit, defense, and running game.

People bring up weapons and say that Luck has had it better....or a better offensive line...that is interesting. I've never once read anyone that thinks that the Colts have a good offensive line. They have been utterly incapable of running the football in Lucks first three years....Hilton was a 4th round pick, Wayne was pretty much done last year.

So let's see....on offense, Luck had better WRs, OL is a push at best, although I'd argue Seattle's is better. Seahawks had better running game. So on offense it's basically a push. Anybody going to argue that Indy's D/ST is better than Seattle's for the sake of propping up Wilson???

Stats and W/L records are not the way to judge QBs IMO....scheme and personnel being so different, that's too difficult. The eyeball test tells me Luck is in another class over Wilson....but don't just listen to me, go poll every non Seahawk and Colt fan and see what they say. My guess would be 95% would take Luck. And that would tell you all you need to know. With the talent Seattle has amassed, if you replaced Wilson with Luck, they would have gone 19-0 the last two years and won the superbowl IMO. But then that's why a team as talented as Seattle wasn't in position to land a player as talented as Luck.

What about the fact that Lucks division sucks? Or that he has been pretty terrible when the pressure is actually on in the playoffs...you arent good if you throw 9TD to 12 INT in the postseason..im sorry. His first 3 seasons in the league the following is his postseason qb rating....59.8, 76.4 and 71.8

If I just told you without names that...

Player A has been in 6 postseason games and in those games had 9TD/12INT, 56% completion ratio, 70.8 QB rating with 4 of those games having 2+ INTS, and no superbowl appearances

and

Player B has been in 8 postseason games and in those games has 12TD/6INT with 2 additional rushing TD, 60% completion ratio, 97.8 QB rating, with 1 game taking up 4 of those INT, and one superbowl win with 2 superbowl apperances.

Who would say Player A is ELITE and is better than B...just...dont understand

Seattle WOULD NOT go undefeated with Luck because 1..He sucks in the playoffs, and 2. He would have to face much better defenses....against the NFC West Opponents he would face if he was a Seahawk, he had a very low QB rating and 2TD to 4INT against the Rams, 49ers and Cards back when he played our division. Any Rams Fan that says they arent worried about Wilson, are they worried about Luck? He had 1TD/3INT and a 65 QB rating and the total points the colts put up was 8.

 

[Ramfan128]

It's my opinion that better players around you make you look better, regardless of position, but especially at QB.

Take away the QBs and Seattle's roster is so superior to the Colts it's sickening - yes that's my opinion, but I don't think it's one Hawks fans would disagree with.

The Colts haven't had a good offensive line....not for running or passing the football. The Hawks have had a top 5 OL for running the ball.

Not trying to troll, to me it's just common sense. I'm not looking at Luck's stats, just looking at the players around him, what it looks like he's asked to do, and the plays he's capable of making.

All stats are going to be affected by the players around you, so I don't consider that a good argument for why someone is better or worse, unless they play with comparable talent in a comparable system.

 

[Chapow]

The NFCCG against the Packers was literally one of the worst performances by a starting NFL QB I've ever seen.

And yet, Wilson still threw for more yards in less attempts than Rodgers and scored twice as many TD's including the game winner in overtime (yes, I'm including rushing TD's).

Or were you referring to Rodgers with his 178 yds in 34 attempts, 1 TD and 2 INT's?

 

[brimsalabim]

It's my opinion that better players around you make you look better, regardless of position, but especially at QB.

Take away the QBs and Seattle's roster is so superior to the Colts it's sickening - yes that's my opinion, but I don't think it's one Hawks fans would disagree with.

.

Really? Ok I'll give you Lynch but what other offensive players come to mind?

 

[RichNhansom]

It's my opinion that better players around you make you look better, regardless of position, but especially at QB.

Take away the QBs and Seattle's roster is so superior to the Colts it's sickening - yes that's my opinion, but I don't think it's one Hawks fans would disagree with.

.

Really? Ok I'll give you Lynch but what other offensive players come to mind?

It has to be some kind of joke. It is just simple trolling. Poor guy must really need some attention. Bring something to the table that actually makes some kind of sense or stop posting on the subject.

I really do hope you are just trolling though because if you believe that Wilson's receiving corp and TE have made him look better than he is while Lucks has not then that bus is even shorter than we suspected.

I really think banning you would be an act of mercy at this point.

 

[Smellyman]

Seahawks do have a better running game but a big part of that is our offense is dedicated to run first. We have run first blocking schemes and drafted receivers with routes designed to run them into the defenders so that they can block down field. The colts play design and OL are designed for pass protection. Luck should finally earn his praise in the upcoming season though. I dare so that no QB in the cap era has had as talented a collection of players to work with.

You are correct and the thing about it is if you adjust Wilson's rushing yards to the league average for a QB, the Seahawks would have been ranked 10th. It was Wilson's 850 yards rushing that bumps them to the #1 running offense. Defenses had to worry about Wilson scrambling also so Lynch and company benefited from that also.

Defenses often stack the box or go single high safety for the purpose of slowing down our running game but also designate a defender to spy Wilson. They are able to do that because we don't have a receiver corp that threatens to make them pay. They can go man up on our entire receiving corp including TE and dedicate every free man to stopping the run. Put a non mobile QB back there and that spy becomes another defender stopping the run.

The Colts running game will always be garbage by design. Gore will likely have his worst season there because the system is designed for passing. They will always be a big fantasy team but I doubt they win any real trophy's. The only reason they went deep last year was due to schedule and lucky breaks getting the right opponents at the right time. The Patriots exposed them for what they are, a slightly above average team that benefits from no division opponents and the AFC's lack of talent. A relatively healthy Manning or any QB not named Ryan Lindley and they lose either of those playoff games.

Great post. Lynch is great and everyone agrees. His play went to great however when Wilson got here and opened up the running game.

 

[Ramfan128]

It's my opinion that better players around you make you look better, regardless of position, but especially at QB.

Take away the QBs and Seattle's roster is so superior to the Colts it's sickening - yes that's my opinion, but I don't think it's one Hawks fans would disagree with.

.

Really? Ok I'll give you Lynch but what other offensive players come to mind?

It has to be some kind of joke. It is just simple trolling. Poor guy must really need some attention. Bring something to the table that actually makes some kind of sense or stop posting on the subject.

I really do hope you are just trolling though because if you believe that Wilson's receiving corp and TE have made him look better than he is while Lucks has not then that bus is even shorter than we suspected.

I really think banning you would be an act of mercy at this point.

It's not trolling. I never said the WRs/TEs were the same - the Colts are better.

But the entirety of Seattle's running game, which includes blocking from said WRs/TEs, and the Offensive Line, as well as Marshawn Lynch, is better than the Colts.

You can't just "take away" Wilson's carries and yards - if he didn't run the ball, it's likely someone else would have. Seattle's rushing offense still would have been better than 10th without Wilson. You can look up advanced stats if you want to....most will tell you that Seattle's offensive line is an elite run blocking unit.

The Colts offensive line is not elite is any category. Thus I can reasonably say that the Seahawks offensive line, overall, is better than the Colts. And you're still ignoring having one of the best defenses in NFL history - it DOES make a difference. The Colts haven't had anything close to that luxury the last three years.

Wilson has had bad games. Luck has had bad games. The Colts as a team have overachieved because Luck is a very good QB. That roster is not good. If the Seahawks and Colts played on a neutral field with their QBs, I'd give the Colts a 25% chance to win. If they played on a neutral field without their QBs, I'd give the Colts 0% chance to win. That's obviously my opinion, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[RichNhansom]

It's my opinion that better players around you make you look better, regardless of position, but especially at QB.

Take away the QBs and Seattle's roster is so superior to the Colts it's sickening - yes that's my opinion, but I don't think it's one Hawks fans would disagree with.

.

Really? Ok I'll give you Lynch but what other offensive players come to mind?

It has to be some kind of joke. It is just simple trolling. Poor guy must really need some attention. Bring something to the table that actually makes some kind of sense or stop posting on the subject.

I really do hope you are just trolling though because if you believe that Wilson's receiving corp and TE have made him look better than he is while Lucks has not then that bus is even shorter than we suspected.

I really think banning you would be an act of mercy at this point.

It's not trolling. I never said the WRs/TEs were the same - the Colts are better.

How much better? I would say significantly. In fact our receiving corp is mostly only good because of Wilson.

But the entirety of Seattle's running game, which includes blocking from said WRs/TEs, and the Offensive Line, as well as Marshawn Lynch, is better than the Colts.

Of course our run blocking is better. We are schemed for it just like the Colts scheme for a passing attack. Arguing that are running game is better so are O-line is better is just trolling. How can you even say that with a straight face?

You can't just "take away" Wilson's carries and yards - if he didn't run the ball, it's likely someone else would have. Seattle's rushing offense still would have been better than 10th without Wilson. You can look up advanced stats if you want to....most will tell you that Seattle's offensive line is an elite run blocking unit.

How is that likely? It's just as if not more likely that Lynch would have had less yardage with defenses being able to commit the spy to stopping him instead of having to track Wilson. Again you are trolling.

The Colts offensive line is not elite is any category. Thus I can reasonably say that the Seahawks offensive line, overall, is better than the Colts. And you're still ignoring having one of the best defenses in NFL history - it DOES make a difference. The Colts haven't had anything close to that luxury the last three years.

Yes and any 6' tall man is stronger than any 5'11" man. Troll logic doesn't add up. But I am pretty sure logic is not one of your strong suits.

Wilson has had bad games. Luck has had bad games. The Colts as a team have overachieved because Luck is a very good QB. That roster is not good. If the Seahawks and Colts played on a neutral field with their QBs, I'd give the Colts a 25% chance to win. If they played on a neutral field without their QBs, I'd give the Colts 0% chance to win. That's obviously my opinion, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

I agree the Colts have over achieved because of Luck, just like The Seahawks have with Wilson. We do have a better defense but our running game is more than offset by their receiving corp. The biggest advantage is in coaching and philosophy and yes Wilson benefits from that but he also suffers from it. When unleashed Wilson has produced some staggering results. Probably the best performance of his rookie year was ruined by that great defense you want to use against him. In the end Wilson leads the league in come from behind wins and pretty much all of those are on him, not the running game or defense other than maybe causing him to have to come from behind in the first place.

Reality is with a lessor defense and Luck's propensity to throw Int's he has probably had twice as many opportunities to rack up those come from behind/4th quarter wins and realistically he has the weapons to do just that, Why he hasn't really is on him.

Here is a fun point. Wilson has scored a TD every single time he has had the opportunity to in what most educated football fans consider the games most critical situation. Literally 100% undefeated as a result in OT. And this is when he takes over a game. The defense has never seen the field in Wilson's NFL career in OT. Lucky coin flip sure but none the less, absolutely perfect in probably the most critical of situations speaks pretty loudly. I honestly don't know if Lucj has even played in OT. Anyone can help here.

 

[camdawg]

The Colts as a team have overachieved because Luck is a very good QB. That roster is not good. .

Isn't it amazing that a team with a bad roster could make the playoffs twelve of the last thirteen seasons while winning 10 games or more in all of those playoff seasons? Granted, Peyton and Andrew were, and are, a big part of that. But you aren't that successful, for that long, with a bad roster.

Let's also remember Russell took over a team that had four straight losing seasons. It was by no means a sure thing that we'd turn into a smashing success.

 

[WilsonMVP]

The Colts as a team have overachieved because Luck is a very good QB. That roster is not good. .

Isn't it amazing that a team with a bad roster could make the playoffs twelve of the last thirteen seasons while winning 10 games or more in all of those playoff seasons? Granted, Peyton and Andrew were, and are, a big part of that. But you aren't that successful, for that long, with a bad roster.

Let's also remember Russell took over a team that had four straight losing seasons. It was by no means a sure thing that we'd turn into a smashing success.

They turned over their roster alot from when Manning was there its really not the same people BUT..only reason they had the number 1 pick to begin with is because Mannings backups were some of the worst in the league so the offense was terrible.

 

[TheRealDTM]

Luck and Wilson aren't even close.

This board is the most reasonable to read of all the fan bases in the NFL.......until people bring up Wilson.

He belongs in the 2nd tier and he belongs well beneath Luck.

Using superbowls as a metric is pointless considering this is a TEAM sport; and Wilson has had a FAR better special teams unit, defense, and running game.

People bring up weapons and say that Luck has had it better....or a better offensive line...that is interesting. I've never once read anyone that thinks that the Colts have a good offensive line. They have been utterly incapable of running the football in Lucks first three years....Hilton was a 4th round pick, Wayne was pretty much done last year.

So let's see....on offense, Luck had better WRs, OL is a push at best, although I'd argue Seattle's is better. Seahawks had better running game. So on offense it's basically a push. Anybody going to argue that Indy's D/ST is better than Seattle's for the sake of propping up Wilson???

Stats and W/L records are not the way to judge QBs IMO....scheme and personnel being so different, that's too difficult. The eyeball test tells me Luck is in another class over Wilson....but don't just listen to me, go poll every non Seahawk and Colt fan and see what they say. My guess would be 95% would take Luck. And that would tell you all you need to know. With the talent Seattle has amassed, if you replaced Wilson with Luck, they would have gone 19-0 the last two years and won the superbowl IMO. But then that's why a team as talented as Seattle wasn't in position to land a player as talented as Luck.

Thank you so much. Trying to talk about Wilson reasonably here is impossible

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Luck and Wilson aren't even close.

This board is the most reasonable to read of all the fan bases in the NFL.......until people bring up Wilson.

He belongs in the 2nd tier and he belongs well beneath Luck.

Using superbowls as a metric is pointless considering this is a TEAM sport; and Wilson has had a FAR better special teams unit, defense, and running game.

People bring up weapons and say that Luck has had it better....or a better offensive line...that is interesting. I've never once read anyone that thinks that the Colts have a good offensive line. They have been utterly incapable of running the football in Lucks first three years....Hilton was a 4th round pick, Wayne was pretty much done last year.

So let's see....on offense, Luck had better WRs, OL is a push at best, although I'd argue Seattle's is better. Seahawks had better running game. So on offense it's basically a push. Anybody going to argue that Indy's D/ST is better than Seattle's for the sake of propping up Wilson???

Stats and W/L records are not the way to judge QBs IMO....scheme and personnel being so different, that's too difficult. The eyeball test tells me Luck is in another class over Wilson....but don't just listen to me, go poll every non Seahawk and Colt fan and see what they say. My guess would be 95% would take Luck. And that would tell you all you need to know. With the talent Seattle has amassed, if you replaced Wilson with Luck, they would have gone 19-0 the last two years and won the superbowl IMO. But then that's why a team as talented as Seattle wasn't in position to land a player as talented as Luck.

Thank you so much. Trying to talk about Wilson reasonably here is impossible

I've yet to see reasonable in this thread though. Which should be no surprise given the premise and the cold hard fact that Wilson has already done what the media claims Luck will do since Stanford and before.

All I know is that when it's the big stage Luck throws four interceptions to the team that got lucky to beat us while being a lesser version of itself no less. While we lost several key components to our defense and offense yet for a bone head play call still had a chance to win.

Guess who put us there? It wasn't Bennett, it was some short dude from Wisconsin I think.
:sarcasm_off:

 

[Laloosh]

...
Wilson is a 2nd tier QB and has yet to show he can be 1st tier. I don't know how many more playoff game interceptions and lack of rhythm it's going to take to demonstrate that.

Yeah... you might want to look at the actual numbers before making assumptions. He's thrown fewer picks per playoff game than Manning, Brady and Luck.

http://pfref.com/tiny/4mvJF

Sure you don't want to walk that one back a bit?

Lack of rythm? His two super bowls are probably about as good as he's had it from a protection standpoint (imagine that, against AFC defenses) and he's throwing to a bunch of UDFAs for crying out loud, lol.

For a 3rd year quarterback, I'll take my chances with him.

I don't watch every Seahawk game but I tend to catch all the big ones. From the eye test in big games against good defenses Wilson mostly plays ok (nothing special) with a couple of big flashy plays that gets the W. Mostly out of pocket scrambles, read option or his signature 1 or 2 (or 3) jump ball completions he always seems to get. And on the general "luck" side, he's been luckier than all other starting QBs in the league the last few years with the breaks his team gets in terms of fumbles lost and the lucky bounce.

I've yet to see the consistent systematic carving up of a defense that a tier 1 QB, or "just outside the top 5" would be capable of.

He's obviously a good QB but not (yet) a Tier 1.

His best game (statistically) in the playoffs was his first loss in which he "carved up a defense". The team plays a different style of football than 29 or 30 of the other 31 teams. Sometimes it's not going to be about him having a big game in order to win. I'm absolutely fine w/ ppl stating that they don't think he's a top 5 QB but you're kidding yourself if you think he and the likes of Andy Dalton are on the same level.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

A Niner fan talking about a quarterback on a Hawks board. When his QB is a self centered choke artist. :th2thumbs:

 

[RichNhansom]

...
Wilson is a 2nd tier QB and has yet to show he can be 1st tier. I don't know how many more playoff game interceptions and lack of rhythm it's going to take to demonstrate that.

Yeah... you might want to look at the actual numbers before making assumptions. He's thrown fewer picks per playoff game than Manning, Brady and Luck.

http://pfref.com/tiny/4mvJF

Sure you don't want to walk that one back a bit?

Lack of rythm? His two super bowls are probably about as good as he's had it from a protection standpoint (imagine that, against AFC defenses) and he's throwing to a bunch of UDFAs for crying out loud, lol.

For a 3rd year quarterback, I'll take my chances with him.

I don't watch every Seahawk game but I tend to catch all the big ones. From the eye test in big games against good defenses Wilson mostly plays ok (nothing special) with a couple of big flashy plays that gets the W. Mostly out of pocket scrambles, read option or his signature 1 or 2 (or 3) jump ball completions he always seems to get. And on the general "luck" side, he's been luckier than all other starting QBs in the league the last few years with the breaks his team gets in terms of fumbles lost and the lucky bounce.

I've yet to see the consistent systematic carving up of a defense that a tier 1 QB, or "just outside the top 5" would be capable of.

He's obviously a good QB but not (yet) a Tier 1.

His best game (statistically) in the playoffs was his first loss in which he "carved up a defense". The team plays a different style of football than 29 or 30 of the other 31 teams. Sometimes it's not going to be about him having a big game in order to win. I'm absolutely fine w/ ppl stating that they don't think he's a top 5 QB but you're kidding yourself if you think he and the likes of Andy Dalton are on the same level.

This is what a webzone education gets you. You can copy and paste his observational comments from posters all over the webzone. Can't wait for the 2 for 9 when opponents score 24 points (apparently the end all be all stat on the webzone that trumps all other stats) or how Kaep would have at least 2 rings if he were a Seahawk even though the9ers have the most talented roster in the league and on and on.

Fun stuff.

 

[WilsonMVP]

...
Wilson is a 2nd tier QB and has yet to show he can be 1st tier. I don't know how many more playoff game interceptions and lack of rhythm it's going to take to demonstrate that.

Yeah... you might want to look at the actual numbers before making assumptions. He's thrown fewer picks per playoff game than Manning, Brady and Luck.

http://pfref.com/tiny/4mvJF

Sure you don't want to walk that one back a bit?

Lack of rythm? His two super bowls are probably about as good as he's had it from a protection standpoint (imagine that, against AFC defenses) and he's throwing to a bunch of UDFAs for crying out loud, lol.

For a 3rd year quarterback, I'll take my chances with him.

I don't watch every Seahawk game but I tend to catch all the big ones. From the eye test in big games against good defenses Wilson mostly plays ok (nothing special) with a couple of big flashy plays that gets the W. Mostly out of pocket scrambles, read option or his signature 1 or 2 (or 3) jump ball completions he always seems to get. And on the general "luck" side, he's been luckier than all other starting QBs in the league the last few years with the breaks his team gets in terms of fumbles lost and the lucky bounce.

I've yet to see the consistent systematic carving up of a defense that a tier 1 QB, or "just outside the top 5" would be capable of.

He's obviously a good QB but not (yet) a Tier 1.

His best game (statistically) in the playoffs was his first loss in which he "carved up a defense". The team plays a different style of football than 29 or 30 of the other 31 teams. Sometimes it's not going to be about him having a big game in order to win. I'm absolutely fine w/ ppl stating that they don't think he's a top 5 QB but you're kidding yourself if you think he and the likes of Andy Dalton are on the same level.

Outside of the GB game his INTs are at the end against the Falcons on a hailmary because they falcons screwed up the kickoff after kicking the game winning FG....AND....the last play we had in the superbowl this year on offense.

 

[TheRealDTM]

Outside of the GB game his INTs are at the end against the Falcons on a hailmary because they falcons screwed up the kickoff after kicking the game winning FG....AND....the last play we had in the superbowl this year on offense.

Oh you mean the worst play in Seahawks and QBing history? Yeah no big deal