Can any non Seahawk fan help me understand something?

[Russ Willstrong]

Everyone can clearly see what is going on.

I think people are seeing things a little blurry actually.

No conspiracy here. The NFL always hire Stygian witches to referee the Seahawks. It is a mandate of the NFL gods (No not Goddell) to test it's toughest heros.

 

[Hawks46]

It's easy to complain if you want to 'cherry pick' plays.

Yes, the OPI on Turbin was bad, no question about it...but, how about the two face mask penalties that should have been called on our 'Hawks?

Poop happens.

Yep. This and the failure to call an illegal man downfield on the punt. I think that the officiating was pretty bad last night and that we got the ass end of more bad calls than they did, but not in some terribly one-sided way.

You see, I have a question about that. Michaels and Collingsworth were saying that once that punt is muffed and it hits the ground, that the defenders are allowed to hit him before, during or after the punt and don't have to hit the ball first.

So, if the ball hits the ground and the punter gets it off, is there still ineligible players downfield ? Similar to there being no illegal contact in the secondary if a ball is tipped at the line (which is still incorrectly called a LOT that I've seen). I don't understand how one part of the rule sequence goes out the window but not the other.

I'm not really following. What does the fact that defenders can hit him have to do with whether players on the punt team can illegally go downfield?

Well my question (and point) is that when the punt gets muffed and hits the ground, things change. If a punter cleanly catches the ball and gets hit, but no one hits the ball, it's a penalty. Once that ball hits the ground, anything goes...he's now a runner. So, if he's a runner, how can there be an illegal man downfield ?

There are similar protections lost when a punt returner muffs a punt. When a pass is tipped at the LOS, there are no illegal contacts; you can blast that WR to get to the ball at that point.

So, was it really an illegal man downfield ? Just because the announcers said it, doesn't mean it was true. So my question was to the actual rule.

And for the posters saying we face masked Kap.....it looked like the defender did hit the facemask but didn't hold onto it. He had a hold of his jersey right underneath his chin. What it looked like to me, and on the replay as well.

 

[MidwestHawker]

Well my question (and point) is that when the punt gets muffed and hits the ground, things change. If a punter cleanly catches the ball and gets hit, but no one hits the ball, it's a penalty. Once that ball hits the ground, anything goes...he's now a runner. So, if he's a runner, how can there be an illegal man downfield ?

There are similar protections lost when a punt returner muffs a punt. When a pass is tipped at the LOS, there are no illegal contacts; you can blast that WR to get to the ball at that point.

So, was it really an illegal man downfield ? Just because the announcers said it, doesn't mean it was true. So my question was to the actual rule.

And for the posters saying we face masked Kap.....it looked like the defender did hit the facemask but didn't hold onto it. He had a hold of his jersey right underneath his chin. What it looked like to me, and on the replay as well.

With regard to that possible facemask on Kaep, I agree that it was fuzzy and not necessarily a clear-cut facemask, though I think we may have gotten away with one. I will say that we got away with a BLATANT one on Gore a bit earlier (I think it was earlier) than that, and there's no question in my mind about that one. I couldn't believe it went uncalled because it was very much in plain view of the line judge.

As to your question about illegal man downfield, here's the wording of the rule:

During a kick from scrimmage, only the end men, as eligible receivers on the line of scrimmage at the time of the snap, are permitted to go beyond the line before the ball is kicked.

Exception: An eligible receiver who, at the snap, is aligned or in motion behind the line and more than one yard outside the end man on his side of the line, clearly making him the outside receiver, replaces that end man as the player eligible to go downfield after the snap. All other members of the kicking team must remain at the line of scrimmage until the ball has been kicked.

There's no exception carved out for when the ball hits the ground.

 

[RunTheBall]

The refs were just trying to keep the game close to keep the audience watching, Seahawks putting the game away early in the 3rd quarter was never an option, thus the BS calls once we got into the red zone.

I don't believe this to be true because it would mean collusion between the league and the Refs which if it got out would make the NFL the new WWE. .

If you don't think there has ever been collusion then I bet you believe our government's lies about how much money they spend. I have no doubt that Goodell or other big wigs in the NFL Front Office have told refs something along the lines of "if the game looks like it's starting to get out of hand, you know what to do". NBA has already fixed playoff games that impacted an NBA Title, so why is the NFL innocent by default? I'd say the vast majority of NFL games are 100% legit, but I'm sure the NFL does have a say in some big matchups.

 

[MidwestHawker]

NBA has already fixed playoff games that impacted an NBA Title,

They have?

 

[RunTheBall]

NBA has already fixed playoff games that impacted an NBA Title,

They have?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjRcTiwVEwo

Do you live in a hole?

 

[MidwestHawker]

Oh, well if fan rage videos about officiating count as proof of a league fixing games, I have one for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esaaoSrK7_Q

Yay for fixed games, they got us our first Super Bowl!

 

[RunTheBall]

Oh, well if fan rage videos about officiating count as proof of a league fixing games, I have one for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esaaoSrK7_Q

Yay for fixed games, they got us our first Super Bowl!

Wow, not even comparable, an NBA ref came out and admitted the whole thing was rigged. Are you really that dumb? It was fixed, the NBA never could offer any proof it wasn't other than DENY DENY DENY which just proves guilt.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401

"Referees A, F and G were officiating a playoff series between Teams 5 and 6 in May of 2002. It was the sixth game of a seven-game series, and a Team 5 victory that night would have ended the series. However, Tim learned from Referee A that Referees A and F wanted to extend the series to seven games. Tim knew referees A and F to be 'company men,' always acting in the interest of the NBA, and that night, it was in the NBA's interest to add another game to the series. Referees A and F heavily favored Team 6. Personal fouls [resulting in obviously injured players] were ignored even when they occurred in full view of the referees. Conversely, the referees called made-up fouls on Team 5 in order to give additional free throw opportunities for Team 6.

 

[MidwestHawker]

Oh that was one of the Donaghy games. Welp, I was going to sit through an 8-minute YouTube so I jumped the gun a bit there. My mistake.

Guess I'm not sure why I got going on that little derail anyway since wrongdoing by the NBA has zilch to do with any going on in the NFL.

Is it possible that shady stuff has happened in the NFL? Sure. Without any proof, acting like it's probable seems like a stretch. And certainly not particularly directed against us, as some fans seem to buy into.

 

[lobohawk]

Thought I'd heard that at the top of the penalty list were Seattle, Denver, and New England. Ironically three of the better teams.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

Oh, well if fan rage videos about officiating count as proof of a league fixing games, I have one for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esaaoSrK7_Q

Yay for fixed games, they got us our first Super Bowl!

Wow, not even comparable, an NBA ref came out and admitted the whole thing was rigged. Are you really that dumb? It was fixed, the NBA never could offer any proof it wasn't other than DENY DENY DENY which just proves guilt.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401

"Referees A, F and G were officiating a playoff series between Teams 5 and 6 in May of 2002. It was the sixth game of a seven-game series, and a Team 5 victory that night would have ended the series. However, Tim learned from Referee A that Referees A and F wanted to extend the series to seven games. Tim knew referees A and F to be 'company men,' always acting in the interest of the NBA, and that night, it was in the NBA's interest to add another game to the series. Referees A and F heavily favored Team 6. Personal fouls [resulting in obviously injured players] were ignored even when they occurred in full view of the referees. Conversely, the referees called made-up fouls on Team 5 in order to give additional free throw opportunities for Team 6.

Blazers v. Lakers?

 

[Rainger]

Guess I'm not sure why I got going on that little derail anyway since wrongdoing by the NBA has zilch to do with any going on in the NFL.

Is it possible that shady stuff has happened in the NFL? Sure. Without any proof, acting like it's probable seems like a stretch. And certainly not particularly directed against us, as some fans seem to buy into.

But it is not a stretch. There are really two issues. One the NFL trying to affect games and two individual refs trying to do the same. Both for different reasons.

There are far more officials in the NFL than in the NBA. There are far more chances for someone with a bent to make money off of the games to exist in the body of NFL refs than in the NBA.

It is like anything that comes out later, the many who denied it could happen are shocked when it is discovered. But to deny that the possibility exists and not watch carefully the calls and the spread and related outcomes and deny that it exist without "evidence" is just a "see no evil" attitude.

BTW I don't think Seattle is being singled out by the refs in the dishonest area. However I do believe there is some kind of league wide general directive to all the refs about watching the more aggressive and dominant teams to try to facilitate "parity".

How the refs then take that or implement it, is what they do and they could be more aggressive against Seattle just because they are the SB winners. A couple years ago when Ravens were in the SB they were the most penalized. Of course the more aggressive a team is the more they will have penalties. There is ample "evidence" on this one.

It is not those penalties I am talking about it is the other ones that are called at strategic times to take off big plays and scoring plays or opportunities that changes or attempts to change the spread. Obviously it does not always work.

There is big money in NFL betting and fantasy. I can not believe that criminal elements have not approached refs to be on a payroll to make an effort to change games. It has happened in practically every other sport, and constantly in politics, it must of happened in the NFL even without evidence.

 

[HawkerD]

The refs were just trying to keep the game close to keep the audience watching, Seahawks putting the game away early in the 3rd quarter was never an option, thus the BS calls once we got into the red zone.

I don't believe this to be true because it would mean collusion between the league and the Refs which if it got out would make the NFL the new WWE. .

If you don't think there has ever been collusion then I bet you believe our government's lies about how much money they spend. I have no doubt that Goodell or other big wigs in the NFL Front Office have told refs something along the lines of "if the game looks like it's starting to get out of hand, you know what to do". NBA has already fixed playoff games that impacted an NBA Title, so why is the NFL innocent by default? I'd say the vast majority of NFL games are 100% legit, but I'm sure the NFL does have a say in some big matchups.

You might want to check your meds. Where is the irrefutable evidence that the NBA fixed a playoff game.

I believe the NFL might instruct the referees to watch certain things. Those certain thing may be on average be committed by one of the teams more than the other. But if you think that they overtly instruct referees to favor one team over the other, whether that be a specific team or the the team in the lead, you are applying faulty logic. All it would take is one ref to pull a "Snowden" for the whole thing to come crumbling down. The NFL isn't going to jeopardize an unbelievable business model for rating on any single game.

 

[Bigbadhawk]

The refs were just trying to keep the game close to keep the audience watching, Seahawks putting the game away early in the 3rd quarter was never an option, thus the BS calls once we got into the red zone.

I don't believe this to be true because it would mean collusion between the league and the Refs which if it got out would make the NFL the new WWE. .

If you don't think there has ever been collusion then I bet you believe our government's lies about how much money they spend. I have no doubt that Goodell or other big wigs in the NFL Front Office have told refs something along the lines of "if the game looks like it's starting to get out of hand, you know what to do". NBA has already fixed playoff games that impacted an NBA Title, so why is the NFL innocent by default? I'd say the vast majority of NFL games are 100% legit, but I'm sure the NFL does have a say in some big matchups.

You might want to check your meds. Where is the irrefutable evidence that the NBA fixed a playoff game.

I believe the NFL might instruct the referees to watch certain things. Those certain thing may be on average be committed by one of the teams more than the other. But if you think that they overtly instruct referees to favor one team over the other, whether that be a specific team or the the team in the lead, you are applying faulty logic. All it would take is one ref to pull a "Snowden" for the whole thing to come crumbling down. The NFL isn't going to jeopardize an unbelievable business model for rating on any single game.

I have no issue with the flags we get, my issue is they aren't putting the same effort into flags with our opponents. There should be no reason all but 2 of our opponents this year get less flags thrown when they play the Seahawks then they do on average for the rest of their opponents. As the 49er game started I mentioned in the Seahawk IRC channel that we would get 10-12 flags and the 49ers would only get 3-4 , well I was off a little as the Hawks got 14 and the they got 3. It was a little predictable when you follow the penalty numbers that I posted earlier.

Its complete BS on the NFLs part. I just hope that some of the attention some of the media has just started to put on this will even things out a bit starting this weekend or we will be looking at another 9-13 hawks/3-5 eagles penalties for the game (btw the eagles avg 7.1 flags a game for the season).

 

[Bigbadhawk]

http://espn.go.com/blog/seattle-seahawk ... e#comments

 

[RiverDog]

For whatever reason, penalties are a part of Pete Carroll coached teams just as they were not part of Mike Holmgren coached teams. Pete himself noted how his teams at USC were penalized at a higher rate than his opponents.

 

[bigtrain21]

For whatever reason, penalties are a part of Pete Carroll coached teams just as they were not part of Mike Holmgren coached teams. Pete himself noted how his teams at USC were penalized at a higher rate than his opponents.

It's not so much the penalties against the Seahawks, it's the lack of penalties called against the teams we are playing. In the last 4 games there have been 13 total penalties called on our opponents. We had 14 alone on Thursday Night. For every 3 penalty flags you see thrown during a game 2 of them are against the Hawks. There have been 153 total penalties called during Seahawks games this year and 102 have been on the Seahawks.

 

[RiverDog]

For whatever reason, penalties are a part of Pete Carroll coached teams just as they were not part of Mike Holmgren coached teams. Pete himself noted how his teams at USC were penalized at a higher rate than his opponents.

It's not so much the penalties against the Seahawks, it's the lack of penalties called against the teams we are playing. In the last 4 games there have been 13 total penalties called on our opponents. We had 14 alone on Thursday Night. For every 3 penalty flags you see thrown during a game 2 of them are against the Hawks. There have been 153 total penalties called during Seahawks games this year and 102 have been on the Seahawks.

As you stated, we have a total of 102 accepted penalties called against us, of which 47, or 46%, are pre snap, which is by far the most pre snap penalties of any team in the league and the highest percentage of pre snap vs. overall total. The team with the next most pre snap penalties is Tampa Bay with 34. On the other hand, New England has nearly as many penalties as we have, 95, but only 24 of those, or roughly 25%, are pre snap. League wide, there have been 2384 accepted penalties with 809 being pre snap, which works out to be 34%.

http://www.nflpenalties.com/

It's not pass interference, holding, illegal blocks, or personal fouls, the types of penalties that are subject more to the discretion of the ref that's causing us to be more penalized than our opponets. It's false starts, defensive offsides, illegal procedure, and neutral zone infractions that's been our problem, and those types of penalties are for the most part very objective and easy to make.

Click on my link and you will see that we are the worst offender in the league in 3 penalty categories, all pre snap, which includes false starts, defensive offsides, and neutral zone infraction. We do not show up as the worst offender in any of the other penalty categories, which includes the more subjective holding, pass interference, and personal foul penalties. So clearly, we are our own worst enemy.

With as many pre snap penalties as we have had and with the relationship they have to our overall total, it is very difficult for me to buy what you're trying to sell, ie that there is a conspiracy amongst the refs to influence our games via penalties.

 

[HawkerD]

For whatever reason, penalties are a part of Pete Carroll coached teams just as they were not part of Mike Holmgren coached teams. Pete himself noted how his teams at USC were penalized at a higher rate than his opponents.

It's not so much the penalties against the Seahawks, it's the lack of penalties called against the teams we are playing. In the last 4 games there have been 13 total penalties called on our opponents. We had 14 alone on Thursday Night. For every 3 penalty flags you see thrown during a game 2 of them are against the Hawks. There have been 153 total penalties called during Seahawks games this year and 102 have been on the Seahawks.

As you stated, we have a total of 102 accepted penalties called against us, of which 47, or 46%, are pre snap, which is by far the most pre snap penalties of any team in the league and the highest percentage of pre snap vs. overall total. The team with the next most pre snap penalties is Tampa Bay with 34. On the other hand, New England has nearly as many penalties as we have, 95, but only 24 of those, or roughly 25%, are pre snap. League wide, there have been 2384 accepted penalties with 809 being pre snap, which works out to be 34%.

http://www.nflpenalties.com/

It's not pass interference, holding, illegal blocks, or personal fouls, the types of penalties that are subject more to the discretion of the ref that's causing us to be more penalized than our opponets. It's false starts, defensive offsides, illegal procedure, and neutral zone infractions that's been our problem, and those types of penalties are for the most part very objective and easy to make.

Click on my link and you will see that we are the worst offender in the league in 3 penalty categories, all pre snap, which includes false starts, defensive offsides, and neutral zone infraction. We do not show up as the worst offender in any of the other penalty categories, which includes the more subjective holding, pass interference, and personal foul penalties. So clearly, we are our own worst enemy.

With as many pre snap penalties as we have had and with the relationship they have to our overall total, it is very difficult for me to buy what you're trying to sell, ie that there is a conspiracy amongst the refs to influence our games via penalties.

Great analysis River Dog.