Cause of Broncos offense struggle identified by John63

[Cyrus12]

Wilson has played pretty well though this year. I get we want to dunk on Wilson and his defenders but he isn't the problem and has been the one lone bright spot for them. 11-2 TD/INT with a 106 rating that is actually really good. We just all ignoring that because we have this weird fascination with hating on him post Seattle? I don't get it.

Like Cowherd said though..hes not part of the solution either. Is he playing to his huge contract? I dont think so..Was he worth all those picks?? Absolutely not... Him going to Denver has hurt them more than its helped.

 

[NoGain]

RW has never been a ball control, timing, system QB. Never. And he seems to have never seriously tried to be. And with his reduced athletic ability to play sandlot ball, it was inevitable he was going to go into severe decline as a starting QB.

It's really not that complicated.

 

[HawkRiderFan]

Whenever I hear protection issues, Wilson taking sacks etc in Denver, I just recall Garrett Bolles telling RW right after the trade that "he was not going to get hit anymore". and with that recollection, I smile

 

[knownone]

Uhhhh....he was in the MVP conversation in Seattle more than once...but he forced his way out. He sabotaged himself and if he was in SF or Miami there's no reason to think it wouldn't look the same. He's now only in the conversation for Most Vain Person.

That comment was a thinly veiled jab at Brock Purdy.

 

[12AngryHawks]

Whenever I hear protection issues, Wilson taking sacks etc in Denver, I just recall Garrett Bolles telling RW right after the trade that "he was not going to get hit anymore". and with that recollection, I smile

Based on what Denver fans say, Bolles is their version of Giacomini. Always getting flagged for holding. He'll probably be playing for Detroit by the end of the month.

 

[Vesuve]

Donkeys gonna play the Chiefs in about 13 hours.

It's gonna be fffuuuuunnnnn to watch.

 

[strohmin]

Donkeys gonna play the Chiefs in about 13 hours.

It's gonna be fffuuuuunnnnn to watch.

I have a feeling they are going to beat the chiefs. As bad as the broncos have been, I have a feeling Russell is going to go off today. The chiefs seem to be overrated this year.

 

[strohmin]

Russell is playing catch these days and percentages and completions will be high as well as his rating, now meaningful throws for first downs, touchdowns, well that's for other QB's these days. This is just a way of stat padding and saying look it isn't me, my stats speak for themselves.

Well to be fair to Russ, he is playing how he always played. Sean Payton knew what he was getting with Russ. He himself said he was going to use all the good plays from Seattle to help Russ. Russell's strengths are all his physical tools. He is average at best when it comes to the cerebral aspect of the game. Russell is not playing to the level of his contract but Sean Payton has been horrible this year. Sean Payton this year is the coaching version of 2022 Russ.

 

[Welshers2]

I honest to god think John might be a team 3 employee. It's the only thing that makes sense at this point. No sane person spends this much time, across multiple forums and social media platforms, defending a celebrity for free. I mean this is sick at this point. If he's not getting paid his obsession with Russell is extremely unhealthy and I would hope both that he receives professional mental health services ASAP and that law enforcement looks into him as a potential stalker for Russel Wilson's sake - obsessions like these never end well.

 

[olyfan63]

I honest to god think John might be a team 3 employee. It's the only thing that makes sense at this point. No sane person spends this much time, across multiple forums and social media platforms, defending a celebrity for free. I mean this is sick at this point. If he's not getting paid his obsession with Russell is extremely unhealthy and I would hope both that he receives professional mental health services ASAP and that law enforcement looks into him as a potential stalker for Russel Wilson's sake - obsessions like these never end well.

The Swifties who showed up to a couple Chiefs games would like to have a word with you. So would the young men who think Olivia Dunne is all that. Both fan groups insist they are not mentally ill, just obsessed. I have no dog in that hunt, and hope it's just a phase these people are going through. John63, however, seems to be a group of 1 with his level of obsession, and can't even blame "social contagion" at this point. The Team3 employee hypothesis seems as good a guess as any. Maybe it's an unpaid internship in "Brand Management" (or "Reputation Management") that John hopes will transition into paid someday?

 

[LastRideOut]

Russ has been okay. The Broncos lack of a consistent running game has magnified his deficiencies. But if you put him in Miami or San Fran, he's in the MVP conversation.

I think you underestimate the impact that 3 and outs have on a defense. It wears them down. Repeated stalled drives especially when WRs are getting open but no looks from the QB are a team killer.

 

[LastRideOut]

Whenever I hear protection issues, Wilson taking sacks etc in Denver, I just recall Garrett Bolles telling RW right after the trade that "he was not going to get hit anymore". and with that recollection, I smile

Wow. I didn't know Bolles said that. Quite the turnaround from "You're not going to get hit anymore" to "I've been here for seven years and all we've done is lost".

 

[olyfan63]

Well to be fair to Russ, he is playing how he always played. Sean Payton knew what he was getting with Russ. He himself said he was going to use all the good plays from Seattle to help Russ. Russell's strengths are all his physical tools. He is average at best when it comes to the cerebral aspect of the game. Russell is not playing to the level of his contract but Sean Payton has been horrible this year. Sean Payton this year is the coaching version of 2022 Russ.

I honestly don't know if it's at all fair to lay any blame on Sean Payton for the 1-4 start. Russell is his own special animal. Maybe Payton came in thinking one set of things about how he'd run the team and manage Wilson, but now has to confront a reality that is uglier than he imagined.
* Broncos lost overall talent, especially their D, by giving up 4 high draft picks for Russell. If 3 out of 4 had hit, Denver is down 3 impact players.
* Broncos lost even more talent, due to salary cap constraints from giving Russell a huge contract. So Denver is down perhaps 2-3 more impact players.
* Broncos lost 2023 1st round pick, #30, which came from Dolphins for Bradley Chubb, a pick Dolphins got from 49ers in the Trey Lance draft deal.

If the Seahawks sacrificed 6 of our top 15 impact players, how would that affect the team's record? Maybe lose at least 3 more games? E.g. from 9-8 to 6-11?

Denver was 7-10 in 2021 before Russell, with the #2 scoring defense. Then 5-12 last year. This year, they might be lucky to get even those 5 wins again. Is one of the real problems that Payton is inheriting a talent-deficient roster? Couple that with Payton's adjustment to realizing he needs to staff for and run the "Russell Wilson Offense", but with a declining Russell Wilson, and limited skill player talent? (Russell has no Tyler or Doug security blanket equivalent, for example) I think Payton is smart enough to realize all those issues, but he's not likely to blab all that to the media.

So, Russell may or may not be "the problem", but the Broncos overall roster talent depletion from acquiring Wilson (and Payton) certainly IS a problem.

Laying all that out, I can't really see how Payton would want to build around an aging, declining, limited Russell Wilson after this year, unless they somehow discover a spark this year. I'd think going forward, Payton would want a QB able to run the type of offense that Drew Brees did, and to upgrade the roster talent overall. Will be interesting to watch...

 

[olyfan63]

I think you underestimate the impact that 3 and outs have on a defense. It wears them down. Repeated stalled drives especially when WRs are getting open but no looks from the QB are a team killer.

From: https://www.trentonian.com/2023/10/...yces-scoop-and-score-rally-jets-past-broncos/

"Defense in a Position to Hunt The Jets played with a lead for the first time this season, which allowed the defense to "release the hounds." The Green & White forced Denver to a three-and-out in four of its first five drives in the second half. One drive lasted two plays after DL Quinton Jefferson recovered a fumble on a botched reverse.
QB Russell Wilson and the Broncos offense had minus-8 yards in that span after totaling 183 in the first half.
"They were getting us on a lot of screens and the quarterback was running and getting a lot of yardages on the screen," HC Robert Saleh said. "It was just a matter of taking out the screen game, taking out the QB scramble, making him play quarterback. I felt like the way they were calling it was making him play quarterback."
R.Wilson was pressured on 23 of his 41 dropbacks (56.1%), according to Next Gen Stats, which was the highest pressure rate he's faced since Week 12 in 2019.

Yup, all those 3-and-outs early in the 2nd half were a game-wrecker for the Broncos vs. the Jets. Being back on the field quickly had to wear out the Broncos D. The Jets seemed to get so many 3rd down conversions against the Denver Defense in that 2nd half, each time Denver went 3-and-out. I suspect the Broncos simply don't have the horses on D to stop teams as consistently as they did in prior years.

Also notice Saleh's borderline disrespectful language towards Wilson, "making him play quarterback" which I interpret as forcing Russell to stay in the pocket and attempt to read coverages, which he knows Russell struggles at.

 

[strohmin]

I honestly don't know if it's at all fair to lay any blame on Sean Payton for the 1-4 start. Russell is his own special animal. Maybe Payton came in thinking one set of things about how he'd run the team and manage Wilson, but now has to confront a reality that is uglier than he imagined.
* Broncos lost overall talent, especially their D, by giving up 4 high draft picks for Russell. If 3 out of 4 had hit, Denver is down 3 impact players.
* Broncos lost even more talent, due to salary cap constraints from giving Russell a huge contract. So Denver is down perhaps 2-3 more impact players.
* Broncos lost 2023 1st round pick, #30, which came from Dolphins for Bradley Chubb, a pick Dolphins got from 49ers in the Trey Lance draft deal.

If the Seahawks sacrificed 6 of our top 15 impact players, how would that affect the team's record? Maybe lose at least 3 more games? E.g. from 9-8 to 6-11?

Denver was 7-10 in 2021 before Russell, with the #2 scoring defense. Then 5-12 last year. This year, they might be lucky to get even those 5 wins again. Is one of the real problems that Payton is inheriting a talent-deficient roster? Couple that with Payton's adjustment to realizing he needs to staff for and run the "Russell Wilson Offense", but with a declining Russell Wilson, and limited skill player talent? (Russell has no Tyler or Doug security blanket equivalent, for example) I think Payton is smart enough to realize all those issues, but he's not likely to blab all that to the media.

So, Russell may or may not be "the problem", but the Broncos overall roster talent depletion from acquiring Wilson (and Payton) certainly IS a problem.

Laying all that out, I can't really see how Payton would want to build around an aging, declining, limited Russell Wilson after this year, unless they somehow discover a spark this year. I'd think going forward, Payton would want a QB able to run the type of offense that Drew Brees did, and to upgrade the roster talent overall. Will be interesting to watch...

Im laying blame on Payton for opening his mouth all offseason saying last year was the worst coaching job and how hed be pissed if they werent a playoff team. Payton himself said how hed fix Russell so he must have had a plan on how hed win with Russell. Unless he was blowing smoke up everyones ass in which case Id lose even more respect for him. If he'd have just kept his mouth shut until he found out what kind of team he had then hed have a case. Its the same with Russell last year, he opened his mouth talking all kind of nonsense about throwing alot of touchdowna and winning multiple superbowls so I judge him based on that.

 

[Cyrus12]

Frank Clark either getting cut or moved...the destruction of this team continues..lets ride!

 

[olyfan63]

Im laying blame on Payton for opening his mouth all offseason saying last year was the worst coaching job and how hed be pissed if they werent a playoff team. Payton himself said how hed fix Russell so he must have had a plan on how hed win with Russell. Unless he was blowing smoke up everyones ass in which case Id lose even more respect for him. If he'd have just kept his mouth shut until he found out what kind of team he had then hed have a case. Its the same with Russell last year, he opened his mouth talking all kind of nonsense about throwing alot of touchdowna and winning multiple superbowls so I judge him based on that.

Fair enough from that perspective. I'm not factoring Payton's schitt talk about Hackett into my overall analysis, but I do agree it gave the Jets extra motivation and focus in this one game. I think Payton was pretty much screwed from the start by the issues of overall roster talent deficiency and having to deal with building an offense totally around Russell's skill set. The biggest fault Hackett had, IMO, was taking WAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY too long to realize that Russell was never going to be good at, nor be truly interested in, running the Aaron Rodgers offense that Hackett wanted to run. Payton knew that coming in. We're on the same page with Russell and his narcissism and delusions of grandeur, I just don't hold it against him because I expect that kind of pablum from Russell as part of his ongoing Me3 Brand Management (tm).

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Russell has been fine but the point is he's exactly like Kirk Cousins great empty stats and totally a loser never making plays in the playoffs against teams more evenly matched. I think Geno is completely league average but at least IF he plays correctly we have a shot to beat anyone. I'm just not in the camp that is fine with paying him 40 million EVER.

 

[Floridahawk79]

I honest to god think John might be a team 3 employee. It's the only thing that makes sense at this point. No sane person spends this much time, across multiple forums and social media platforms, defending a celebrity for free. I mean this is sick at this point. If he's not getting paid his obsession with Russell is extremely unhealthy and I would hope both that he receives professional mental health services ASAP and that law enforcement looks into him as a potential stalker for Russel Wilson's sake - obsessions like these never end well.

I've always thought it was Jake Heaps

 

[James in PA]

Has anyone ever corresponded with John63 on these other forums and let him know there's still plenty of Russell discussion and bashing taking place on the Seahawks forum? I'd be curious to know what he has to say about that. It seems like he's not doing his job by letting all of this RW3 "misinformation" spread like wildfire.